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Good day to you sir!

My goal in this discussion is not to convince anyone that I'm right;[...]why should I take someone else's personal experience over my own?)

We're different, they're different, everybody's different. I appreciate your demeanor when it comes to conversation, but you should realize that the theoretical constructions you suggest about sexuality and the like seem to have an air of objectivity about them. This I believe is the biproduct of that you're rationalizing processes that are very, very complex and wide-reaching via your limited (not your limited as in you're limited, but as in anyone's limited) logical faculties. The fact (and I don't say something is a fact lightly, given how I'm one of the crazy quasi-solipsist people) of the matter is: human behaviour, especially emotional behaviour, is very complex. This complexity invalidates any sort of sweeping generalization that hopes to more or less capture the inner workings of individuals. Whereas when I hadn't had sex I would agree with a lot of your points about the whole process, now that I have had sex, in various configurations and with various partners and in various stages of my life, I just find it extremely difficult to relate to any of your dry, logical points about the causality in sex. Do this, that happens. If you don't do this early enough, that happens. Sex is not a closed system where you can test this stuff out. The people having sex are people, with lives and contexts that are infinitely complex. Everything interfaces with everything. You can't make these sort of statements and hope for ANY sort of credibility, really. They might seem logical, and even might appear to apply to facets of what's going on (especially from your point of view) but in reality there's too much going on for any of these points of be useful for one's personal philosophy.

Sexual practices and the emotions that surround them are very complex, capricious and do not listen much to appeals to reason. Right now, your head is clear, you are not in love nor in lust and your emotional state is generally 'calm' (to make a completely invalid description, really) but when you've experienced a number of situations that make no sense you begin to realize that there's things you experience automatically, focusing your self-awareness on the experience, and then there's the after-the-fact rationalization that's just a safety measure to keep an illusion of control and understanding a knowledge and codification of experience. The latter has very little to do with the former. Emotions do not translate to causality in a simple way. Letters, words, phrases, arguments fail to capture the interconnections to a hopeless degree. What you're explaining when you say 'this or that' about sexuality, is more where you stand right now emotionally, what you think you would do when the time comes, and much less present a clear moral position that indeed applies to your actions to come. In reality, we watch ourselves make "mistakes" (things that we've rationalized as being mistakes) over and over again, playing no active part in the decision-making, and that feels hopeless. So we make rules. And we break them. And we feel hopeless. And we make new rules. And we break them. And so on. Hopefully on the way you've experienced stuff, sex, break-ups, watching a movie with a person that finds you important, whatever. Those things are the ones to watch. Intentfully. Being present. Not the after-the-fact rationalizations. I can paint either picture (for and against promiscuous sex, for and against the modern stylization of sexuality, for and against god, the universe anything) pretty convincingly. Which sort of proves the point: words are words and words have nothing to do with experience.

An examiner that is interested in sociology might gather something useful about very specific aspects of mass behaviour, where a man is abstractified down to a bundle of numbers, but you're saying these things on a personal level. You're saying, this is my life philosophy, I present it to you, learn from me as I learn from you. On that level, the numbers (and words) mean nothing. You have no life philosophy. You have a lot of words, which you might break or keep according to processes you don't even begin to understand (and within which 'free will' means nothing). Life doesn't make sense if you look at it on the microscopic level, and believe me, that's what you're doing. Live is a whole, and we lack the faculties to examine it holistically. Our eyes are too small to gaze on this whole city at once and so on so forth max ernestsims and the fucaultisms you so like.

Also, might I ask what makes you think you know exactly what "experiences everyone else in the world is having"? I highly doubt that you know exactly what goes on in the heads of every denizen of the world...

You don't either, yet you adress the issues as if your vantage point benefits over adam's because of logical continuity. It doesn't, and it isn't. Logic doesn't even begin to scratch the surface of what's going on in the hypercomplex system that is one man, let alone people in interaction. Everything interfaces with everything. All sides of this argument are more self-validating themselves (feels good) by presenting arguments than talking to each other and learning things.

Objectification is a form of degradation; it reduces a human being into something whose only use is the pleasure of others. This is why I find it wrong.

See this is the thing. A neat explanation of what you believe to be the case about a strict effect of one thing. Presented logically, and one-sidedly. But what about people who want, for whatever reason, don't try to give me the 'they're ill' line, to be objectified? What about people who simply do not understand or speak of reality in such terms? What about mock-up sex as a replacement of sex, when you're 'having sex' to 'have sex'? When does sex, the image of sex, pornography become it's own message and not the envelope for the message that reads 'this is objectified'? For someone who says they've read post-modernists, your points of view are startingly positivistic. Just saying. Words are wrong. Beware of words. Words make manifest a lot of effects, and truth is not one of them.

Repression is a form of obsession. Why would you go through such pain to suppress something if you didn't care about it so much? Read "The History of Sexuality" by Michel Foucault for more on this.

Anyone that has read Foucault or Derrida or whatever would find 'repression is a form of obsession' to be a hilarious statement, equally valid (in it's invalidness) to any other 'x is y' statement. Which doesn't mean we shouldn't make these statements, it really means we shouldn't believe them. It means we should make them because they make us feel good, as if we understand the world and are in control. But there's nothing to believe in there. Are you sure you want to cite post-modernists as sources in your replies? They invalidate your method of communication.

I like how people in this thread listen to King Crimson and Genesis and Kansas (okay, Kansas suck). Wonderful.

yeah I've read pesty's puny fist, and she has a very small life knuckle. And she's completely missing the pinky finger if you know what I mean hah!

I GUESS I CAN'T READ MINDS AFTER ALL

Or are we just trying to scare the kid out of being a complete idiot.

Nah, it's better to let natural selection take its course.

Yeah this was actually what I was thinking. Scar tissue is good learning, better than 'don't do that!' ever was. Death is also ok if you're stupid.

Okay, I'll play your game woman.

You're thinking of the number 17

it'll be great fun for you when by accident the flame ignites the stored gasoline in the watergun.

yeah I have no idea what aetheism is, lgm. Explain.

Aetheism??

Pesty, come back to bed.

If I were the devil... hmm...

I'd kill angel and cherub, I'd impale the head of archangel michael on his own fiery sword and ground it in the earth where I once had fallen.

I'd plague the race of man with three thousand tortures, and I'd turn the skies black with suffering. The sun would no longer rise to greet that battlefield.

If I were the devil I'd rape the bastard nazarene.

If I were the devil I would spit in the face of god, my creator and blame him. I am his son and he created me to do these things, he knew exactly from the beginning of time where everything leads. I'd blame him and laugh.

I also like this idea although I'd prefer drawn to photo backgrounds but I understand how insane most people whould consider doing all the artwork for a full game and not putting a GAME in there... although I think what is proposed in this thread could potentially be much more game-like than one might originally think.

And not what most people thing it is. The effect is one of a very calmed and relaxed trance, quite shallow and easily broken if not cultivated over extended sessions and based on trust. Not hardcore YOU WILL DO AS I SAY YOU ARE FEELING MOIST YES MASTER MM FUCK ME NOW type of deal. Too much hollywood.

I've seen an unidentified flying object too, but after all, I can't exactly identify them really, not my field. It was stroboscopic and went in rather peculiar stop-start patterns which was cool. Me and my friends waved a lot and then started to call the 'aliens' names. What manners!


And Terran, I have absolutely no problem to believe in paranormal stuff, I'm not a hardcore sceptic. I'd RATHER if the world was a little magical and this explains why although an atheist I still do ritual sacrifice of virgins an the like... I just need a bit of proof, you know? I mean, the rituals I don't need proof for, they're awesome fun in their own right, fuck proof. But you reading your girlfriend's mind? I need proof. Testes, I mean, tests. Experiements, I'd also require to be present you know, maybe have a session with your girlfriend myself if you don't mind...

Like you just left it alone?

The new guy probably has 3 or 4 more forums to preach to right now before he can come back here.

Uh, please don't take the crap I write there seriously ^_^ It's my shit-talking outlet!

Oh ok, hypocrisy's cool with me.


^_^

Hi, I just wanted to say that this thread is pure gold so far. Keep it up.

I'm sorry, I don't read Idle Thumbs.

[And Helm, that was lame even for you  ]

No, not even close.