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Also many thanks to everyone who nominated! I was keeping my fingers crossed for some of the art categories, but definitely didn't expect this many . "Best programming", heh, glad nobody saw the actual code .

All my picks ended up on the list as well, unfortunately didn't manage to play all of the nominees - have to fix that now.

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I think the idea that women are less visually stimulated than men is nonsense

Women certainly are visually stimulated, and the differences from men might be completely negligible if observed by some alien species (let alone used as justification for oppression of one gender by the other - I'm definitely not trying to do that). They may, however, be enough to make ridiculously exaggerated sexual features more appealing to one gender than to the other. I'm not going to get into the whole "biological vs cultural theory" argument with you, but I think this is a reasonable enough possibility to at least consider.

I'm certainly not an expert, or a woman, or anything other than mostly straight, so I can't speak to this with any great level of detail (hopefully someone better suited will pipe in), but the level of uncomfortableness a woman (and non-teenage men) might feel at overtly sexualised women such as the Prince of Persia character I posted earlier, imagine that, but gender-swapped. I'm having a hard time finding examples, because even searching "hot guy" and "sexy guy" on the net focuses more on what is so for gay men rather than women. The reason I used that specific nurse picture is because that's the best example of it I could find.

Well, I was a lazy student, so I don't have any real academic credentials to throw around, but I do have a degree in human ethology and have been around some sexual preferences research, so I might have some vague idea . Treating male and female sexual behavior as identical is bound to produce ridiculous conclusions. The fact that direct gender swaps lead you to gay porn tells you as much.

EDIT: I agree with this:

I think it is more accurate to say that is the example you gave is an example of character designed as eye-candy for women that is also palatable to men.

As I said, I don't think it is simply down to "This character looks sexy to me, bad, this character doesn't, ok. Or "The level of sexiness in this character has crossed the vague line!". While looking for the Batman clip earlier, I first came across one of Anita Sarkeesian's old Tropes vs Women videos that illustrates this pretty well:

I'm not disputing the overall point that female characters are often designed as eye-candy for men and that it can get distasteful and ridiculous. But I also repeat again that the sort of one-to-one comparisons between male and female characters that Sarkeesian makes in that video are highly demagogical. A big butt and swaying hips isn't a representation of a stereotypically sexy man, pronounced V-shape and swagger is. This isn't a fair gender-swap of this, this is. This is an actual example of a character designed as eye-candy for women (apparently).

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it's not designing characters to be attractive in and on itself that's the problem, it's designing characters that are so sexualized they become ridiculous, as well as having characters who only exist to be pretty that's the problem.

These are aesthetic choices that make no sense if you treat the character as an individual.

Yes, I think it's clear, I was probably getting too technical/abstract about it. The thing is, Lara Croft seems to be right on the line between what you describe as sexy and sexualised, both with the outfit and exaggerated anatomy. Which might have been what led me down this line of thinking.

There are plenty of women who walk the way catwoman walks in that video, and I've literally never seen anyone walk the way batman walks in the clip. It's extremely exaggerated, highly sexualised, and by no means a reflection of the way men and women walk.

I didn't mean to say that batman's body language is true-to-life (of course not), but that it's a theatrical exaggeration of typically female sexual displays and that's what makes the clip look silly.  Have you seen an actress on stage walk the way batman walks in that clip when asked to be "flirty" and "seductive"? I certainly have. Now can you imagine a male actor on stage being "flirty" and "seductive" in similarly exaggerated fashion? Some strutting, chest-puffing, swagger, sideway-glancing, eyebrow-raising... put that onto batman's model and it's still theatrical, but not so funny anymore. Put it onto catwoman's, and you've got the joke in reverse.

Everyone has preferences, but that in itself doesn't objectify the character more, rather, objectification is about distilling someone down to only the things you find attractive to you to the point you can't see them as a full human being anymore.

You have to remember, players doing this regardless MIGHT be a thing, but the more important and problematic aspect is when the author intends for that to be done.
I remember someone did a Batman and Catwoman swap in one of the Arkham games, but this is the best I can still find. Still, it makes it INCREDIBLY obvious what the developer's intent was, in an incredibly hilarious way. There could be an argument made that Catwoman's character is one where she makes use of her sexuality as a weapon, but whether or not that is true, it's DEFINITELY true  that the game devs wanted to provide a "treat" to certain male players:

I added an edit to my post, but it was probably too late. I was trying to point out that people don't seem to judge a character being a "treat" as bad on principle (as evidenced by the Jane Jensen interview some time back) - they just don't want the sexualization to be too blatant, and the line is sometimes not very clear. If Lara Croft is a badass hero, is it "objectification" that she is also sexy? Isn't that the intention with most action heroes anyway? How much would you need to change her design to make her acceptable?

The Batman/Catwoman video is funny, but mostly because men and women have different body language, so it looks silly when you swap the models. I can easily imagine a plausible flirty batman/restrained catwoman scene - you'd need to change a few things (starting with the characters' personalities of course), but not that much. Just like with the previous nurse gender swap that you posted, by the way - your version is funny and would look silly in a game, but I can easily imagine my Clooney version in a generic rom-com.

On topic, Blondbraid isn't the first woman I've met who absolutely loved Lara Croft. But that doesn't mean Croft wasn't designed to be sexually objectified. We don't have to take the binary view that everything is either good or bad.

I have to admit I'm not entirely clear on the line where physical attractiveness becomes objectification. I find the new Lara better-looking than the original one (not only because of polygon count). Does this mean that I "objectify" her more?

EDIT: maybe to phrase this a little less clumsily - if you design a character to be attractive, aren't you implicitly making them a sexual object?

[exactly the same scene]

Btw, Honza, your game looks seriously cool 

Thank you! 

I guess it's just been one of these days where you desperately wish the point of view gun was real. 

Holy sh*t, I was thinking of exactly the same scene in relation to this thread about two hours ago! 

Spoiler

Well, seeing that context, I personally think

Spoiler

the version where the princess stays dressed sounds more thematically interesting. As for the swimsuit twist, you're right that the dynamics change with the princess dressed, though you could probably still make a comment on how the princess is honest about covering up, while the journalist pretends to be bare and transparent but hides it. Like, after successfully making the princess feel embarrassed for wanting to stay covered, she rises up to show she too is covered while just berating the princess for it.

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Thanks, also starting to lean towards that option. It's "safer", makes sense and can work just as well.

As for the bubble bath in the screenshot, did you watch this Robin Hood: Men in tights scene for inspiration?

I didn't! I've never seen that. And I felt so clever for coming up with that .

You keep using words like "attack" and "jumped at" as if I was physically lunging at you and you only had a split-second to defend yourself from injury,
but in reality, the text is still there for everyone to go back to look at

I'm sorry, but I have to say I also read your first reaction to Kyriakos as aggressive and condescending.

I feel sorry for the troll used as a table... 

Good!

I still think it is jolly poor form, I must say. Falling out takes a certain grace. Like a cat.

It's an expression of strong emotion. Those tend to be "poor form". It's what artsy people do.

EDIT: We-hell, that could explain it, I suppose. If it is inspired, I would say it is one thing. If it is her likeness, however, then that is rather poor form on Eddie's part.

The face is her likeness apparently. To the extent a vague, unrealistic painting like this can be. I was joking, I sincerely hope nobody would seriously consider calling a piece of expressionist art "revenge porn".

I didn't know Munch had a fiancee Tbh I wouldn't have been surprised if he was celibate.
Although there is at least one other version of Munch's "the Death of Marat", where the girl looks very different.

See here .

[symbol]

(for the record, Marat didn't exactly look like the man in the painting either, and died in very different circumstances; pretty sure Munch used the known murder case as a symbol; of tension between lovers)

From what I gather, the painting is inspired by Munch's ex-fiancé and his break-up trauma... so I guess it's technically revenge porn? Edvard Munch: expressionist, one of the world's greatest artists, creepy dudebro .

Glad to be of help, and I've already edited my comment.

Thanks! On second thought, maybe some more context (medium-to-big spoilers this time):

Spoiler

Here's what makes the naked/dressed options (not) work in my opinion:

Without revealing too much, the scene is about the princess angrily confronting the journalist and the journalist completely turning the tables on her and verbally defeating her. The "twist" I mentioned is that at the moment of her triumph, the journalist stands up in the bathtub and it turns out that after all the bullshit about transparency, she's been wearing a strapless swimsuit the whole time, making her the only dressed person in the room. It's not the subtlest of metaphors, but I think I can make it less on-the-nose in execution than it might sound in writing . It obviously doesn't work with the princess dressed though, the journalist would still be underdressed compared to her.

What works in favor of the dressed version is that the princess' character arc is her being dishonest (one of those people who go out of their way not to tell a direct lie, but their skirting around the truth ends up being worse than lying) and eventually learning what real honesty is. So her wanting to stay "covered" works for the character and the journalist could use it against her, managing to embarrass her for not wanting to get naked. It could be a cool villain moment if I manage to get the dialogue right, it would showcase the journalist being clever, manipulative and good at bullying people, managing to turn a disadvantage in her favor through sheer shamelessness. This is probably too abstract without the actual dialogue, but it works in my head . I'd have to sacrifice the swimsuit twist though.

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(sorry for making this about me and my game btw, I think it's somewhat relevant to the topic, but feel free to ignore me )

Ok, thanks for the input. Maybe it would be better if you put your response in a spoiler tab though? Not that I think people care that much, but just in case .

Going back to sex/nudity in games, there's a dilemma I've been having with my own game, so maybe this is the right thread to bite the bullet and ask what people think. Relatively minor (but not negligible) spoilers for Truth be Trolled follow, if you want to play that when it comes out 10 years from now, read at your own risk .

Spoiler

So I've got this scene in the game. The lady in the tub is a tabloid journalist who likes interviewing people naked in her spa, supposedly because transparency, honesty, no secrets, yada yada. Of course she actually does it do embarrass and dominate them (she's interviewing a naked guy when you first visit the area). There's a visual gag here where thanks to the magic of parallaxing, objects scrolling at different speeds always conveniently align to cover strategic areas, Austin Powers style, so nothing explicit is seen.

So far so good I hope, some mildly naughty fun. Now the dilemma:

At one point, the princess visits the journalist in the spa to confront her about something. I'm considering three options:

1. The princess follows the prescribed "dress code", goes in naked, and she's not happy about it. Again, there are strategically placed objects in the foreground, so nothing explicit. This works for the power dynamic I want between the princess and the journalist and it supports a minor twist in the scene, but I'm worried some people might find it sleazy (as me just looking for excuses to get the girl naked).

2. The princess defies the journalist and marches in dressed. This changes the dynamic of the scene and undermines another idea I've had, but is at least interesting and works thematically in some ways. I also don't have to make a new walkcycle for the princess .

3. A compromise: the princess wears a towel. Kind of "meh" if you ask me, but it is an option.

Would anyone here take issue with any of this?

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I think it's worth pondering whether that is because many women still are expected to do more of the daily household chores, like doing the dishes, cooking, looking after children. It's more socially acceptable for men and boys to shut themself away in their room and spend an hour on their hobby than for a woman to do it, especially if she's a mother, and will be labeled a "bad mom" if she leaves the kids alone for too long.

I had time to play video games when I came home from school when I grew up, but I also have a dad who did a fair share of the housework.

The same women who frown upon games are usually fine with binging Netflix shows and reading books. It's more about the whole "computers are for boys" thing. Two of the three women I mentioned are technical types.

Btw, even the aforementioned Another World has some female nudity. Although it is alien women (I think there was no alien male nudity).

I was shocked when I realized as an adult those were supposed to be naked women. As a kid, I thought they were aliens in white cloaks. I guess the stained glass windows made me think it was a church, not a spa .

I think it's in a huge part thanks to marketing. For example, CoD and Battlefield used to be pretty agressively marketed towards teenage boys exclusively, to the point many women, myself included, felt alienated from such games, meanwhile, Overwatch has made a point of showcasing diverse characters in all their marketing, with the added implication that they are aiming for an equally diverse playerbase.

Even with that marketing, the ratio of female players of Overwatch is 16%.

I get to talk to a lot of "regular" people for a living and sometimes I bring up games. Most women I've spoken to play the occasional casual mobile game, but seem almost embarrassed about it because they see it as lazy and childish (and they give me this "maybe you should grow up" look when I say I'm into games ). Other than that, they would recall a game or two they have tried in the past, but they don't play regularly. I only personally know three women who play bigger games on a regular basis, some games they say they've enjoyed include The Sims, Witcher 3, the Fallout series, Factorio, Last of Us.

The number of men who have told me they play games seems slightly higher (I obviously haven't kept count, just my impression) and when they do, they are more unabashed and passionate about it. They would often mention shooters, strategy games (I remember Starcraft, Civilization and AoE being mentioned), sports games, also Last of Us.

Nobody plays point and clicks .


As for the previous topic, I also find it a little frustrating how so many game developers turn into drooling teenagers when it comes to depicting sex and "sexy" women. I remember being annoyed that in the Witcher 2, the women had to look like porn actresses, especially since I knew the characters from the books and had pictured them quite differently. To be fair, they had names, personalities and storylines in that game (from what I've seen, haven't actually played through it), it was just the look that I thought was bad.

That said, I don't find it morally reprehensible for the same reasons I don't find excessive (sometimes outright sadistic) violence in games reprehensible. Personally it's not my thing and it's fine to criticize it as a piece of "art", but some posts here feel a tad too judgmental to me. From my experience, most people seem perfectly capable of distinguishing between campy fiction, heightened reality and the real world. I haven't yet looked into that "objectification changes the brain" study, there might be something to that.

[However,]

If you want my personal opinion, no, I don't want a world where men are equally objectified because treating humans like meat sucks.

However, as things are decidedly NOT equal today and so many men will defend degrading portraits of women without question, making gender-swapped counter examples of men in the same position
serves as a way to cast light on the double standard and and attempt to show straight men just how ridiculous much of the objectification is.

So when you wrote this,

For example, I liked the first Metro 2033 game, and I looked forward to it's sequel, but when I read that there was going to be a mandatory cutscene where you saw the male protagonist have sex from a first-person view,
and the player would be encouraged to visit brothels and pay for lap dances, I immediately lost all interest and decided I do not want to play the game ever.

there are actually two different issues you take with the game? It's not wrong for a game to feature a POV sex scene, but you are annoyed that such scenes only cater to men and you never get to play one from a woman's perspective. Meanwhile, brothels and lap dances are just wrong and shouldn't exist, regardless of gender. Do I understand your perspective correctly?