Messages

[Cerno]

Helpfulness...  Oh dear. If only Misj' hadn't dropped out so soon, I'd probably vote for him. He put a quite a lot of effort in drawing those sketches, examples, diagrams etc. But I liked waheela's advices and helpful references as well, and she stayed till the end I honestly can't decide on this. Half point each?

Most improved piece - that would be Cerno for me. With Selmiak a close second But I have to say, again, everyone deserves a pat in the back/award for sticking with his monster through the whole workshop.

EDIT:

As far as the 'AGS' next idol contest' goes I'm with Miguel on that one. Especially on chewing the chocolate while listening to depressing 80's music bit
Nah, I don't care about the results really. It was fun and I was glad to help and learn from others.

PS:

Miguel also had a good idea about having another workshop, like character portrait-oriented one. I'd certainly like to take part in that. Or an sprite animation workshop, that would be cool too.

[@Cat]

Haha, all right Now after you've said that, I understand your need of humour and playing off the stereotypes.   

I was aiming, on the contrary, for the more or less arche-/stereotypical, 'industry based point-of-view' depiction. That's where my criticism comes from. That's why I went more or less Frazetta route.

I wholeheartedly agree with you about these stereotypes being childish and about mass-sexualization of entertainment industry though. Well, stereotypes...in films, books, games, comics, in any type of media...  It's a wide subject to discuss, worth a separate thread.

@Cat
Nobody's talking Austin Powers style. I'm talking Frazetta style obscuring. Check out how he does it (see Andail's link). BTW, in rare cases when Frazetta shows full frontal nudes it doesn't always pay off, IMO. But I don't know, probably those 'border' pieces that bug me a little were intended as (s)excapist fantasy style illustrations for the likes of Playboy or something So maybe there was some purpose in showing these bits, after all.

EDIT:
I've drawn my monster's willy without any special cover. I didn't use the warrior's weapon or piece of rock to hide it, right? It doesn't draw attention to itself. I understand that Ben was going for fun and I'm 100% ok with it    

[@ Ben]

Sorry, I'm late but felt a need to respond.

But championing the idea that every picture needs a human element in order to tell a tale? I disagree wholeheartedly.

As do I.

And as do I

No doubt adding humans can solve certain problems, and I don't mean to say it's always the wrong choice (I liked Mordalles tiny soldier figures, for examples). But I don't agree with the implication that it's the only way to solve them, or the best way.

It's neither the 'only' nor exactly the 'best' way - I don't see anybody implicating that. It's just a 'very easy' way and probably the most common one used in the industry, when it comes to illustrating the monsters (either book or game art). 'One of the best ways', I could say THAT.

Well, for example, one of selmiak's original reference images was Gollum sitting on a rock, which I think accomplishes a lot of storytelling very simply.

Why? Because you've seen the movie/read the books? There's some story behind most of these film/game creature references, you know. The story is working behind the pictures.
Besides, I for one didn't like the Jackson's Gollum - it accomplished nothing for me, really.

If it helps, maybe try to think about landscape photos and other pictures with no humans in the image. They can still have drama, conflict/contrast, and even tell a story. It might be more challenging, but that also means the solutions can be more interesting.

It doesn't help in this workshop's case. The solutions may or may not be more interesting. But it's not so much about looking for interesting solutions to surround the monster with. First and foremost it's about the monster itself. Humans, hands, cats, chains - they are props and secondary actors to the star of the picture.   

For storytelling and tension, there's a lot that can be done with posing/action, light, point of view and field of view, atmospheric perspective, and props/scenery.

Examples would do us some good here. Honestly, I think we could all benefit this. I know I would.   

(For a cheesy example, what if in your image, instead of the charging warrior with the spear, there was a terrified cat raising its back?)

Right And that's the moment when your potential employer (in either game or book industry) says: "next"! Human being the protagonist, is the most common opponent for monster, like it or not. Human with whom the player/reader/viewer is supposed to identify with

I certainly wouldn't eliminate the light, no.

But you would eliminate the tension and drama by removing human. That would result with a less interesting picture.

Again the thinking seems to be, "Hmm... there's a problem with some aspect of this image. What to do? Oh, just stick a person in there! Problem solved!"

Pretty much. It's the easy solution. Also it's the one that adds an instant story & drama to the picture. The pros outweight the cons in any case. 

How about adding some smaller fishes for scale instead? Or adjusting those underwater plants to give a greater sense of scale? Make the dragon trail bubbles? Increasing the use of atmospheric perspective/water haze, and adding some particles? Putting in some underwater cliffs, or a wreck in the distance, a sunken city or something? (I get the impression cat ran out of time, and maybe she would have tried some of these options if she were to work more on it.)

Indeed, these are very nice solutions to the scale problem. But they aren't so good solutions for the lack of drama/tension. Human is an instant one. 2 in 1, you know, no need to add water And most of us run out of time.
 
In my case, none of these solutions would work, since I wanted to show the monster waving his 'carniparases'/snakearms. Waving alone would be like kissing the air. And this wasn't supposed to be a rpg bestiary book picture or simple piece of game concept art (otherwise, my b/w "BEFORE & AFTER" sketch would do the job), but something a bit more elaborate, descriptive.

There's also one very important factor of adding human that we were saying very little about so far.

We are humans after all. We read, watch, play stories, in which human/humanoid is common. The human most often feature as protagonist, and is a majority in most stories. If your next AGS game's protagonist will be a fish or a rock, that's cool. But most of the games are crowded by humans, like it or not. So for some of us this workshop was also a good opportunity to practice drawing humans.  Human is certainly the most commonly used game monster    

From technical point of view, it is much more challenging to accurately paint a human than most of other subjects. Small fishes? Underwater plants? Particles? Bubbles? Technically, child stuff. Even wrecks and sunken cities are easier to paint than humans For me, that was an excellent opportunity to practice anatomy 'in motion'. And a one that was much more challenging, in technical terms.     

My personal opinion is that exploring some of these options could, in most of these examples, have led to more interesting solutions than just sticking a person in there (which starts to feel a bit like a cop-out once everyone starts doing it, and IMO blunts the effectiveness).

Maybe yes. Or maybe not. Or maybe some of us didn't have time Like, quite a lot of us. As I said, it's one of the easiest ways to solve most of the problems. Also, the problem of a lonely monster. It's also a well-rooted, classical one. In the spirit of forefathers of concept art and their forefathers, and all that;)

It doesn't blunt the effectiveness, since I won't be including other people's work in my portfolio. After the workshop ends, everyone goes home, holding his/her (monstrous) child by the hand (if it has hands:)). The workshop's main purpose wasn't 'gathering many monsters in one place', otherwise it could be named 'AGS monster mittens' It wasn't also the scariest/ugliest monster contest, otherwise it could be named Monster Olympia;) It's main purpose was learning.


-----
I'd also agree with the Misj' critique of Ben's painting. While I love the atmosphere, the details, technical execution  of the piece, for me it lacks a clear story. The somehow sad/melancholic look of the hunched monster leaves me with too much questions to answer. Is he a dethroned lord of some castle, or did he just get kicked out from a monster bar? Is he pictured remembering his demonic lover or prey, or is he lost in this calm deserted place, looking for a portal to bring him back home/hell? He's naked, looking so vulnerable (for a monster). The moon above adds to the reflective, melancholic mood of the piece.

As I said, I like it, but there's too much questions concerning the 'main actor'. Too much for an out-of-context, illustration, utility piece (that's functioning without a text description).

@ Ben
On a side note: I don't want to sound too prim and proper, but in my opinion showing monster's willy in your piece is a mistake. Since it's not exactly a nude act piece, and the nakedness isn't the main theme (nor is supposed to play any important part), I'm for covering/obscuring the private parts here (well, almost any game/book publisher would be because of the non-classical (ancient) take on nudity). For me it's a purely functional issue. The willys (and coochies and sometimes breasts even) in art have a certain quality: they most often steal the scene, obscuring the other - sometimes more important elements - in the process. That's the case with your picture, too. 

OK, then I guess you achieved what you were going for! I still think it's a bit of a shame, though, since it tends to "safen" what's arguably the scariest monster in the whole contest.

Oh, there would be no problem with removing the human warrior if there was need. It's PS after all and she's on a separate layer   I wanted it to function not only as a piece of concept art but also as a painting that could feature on a book or game cover. A lonely monster is just a piece of concept art, not much more. A video game concept art or DnD concept art, it's pretty much the same case to me. It can be more scary since all the focus is on it (+1), but it lacks the story (-1) and can't be seen as a painting per se  (-1)

I probably didn't express that quite right. SookieSock's battle has a kind of serenity of drama, a grandeur that reminded me of a certain kind of D&D art. Maybe Shadow of the Colossus would have been a more appropriate reference. My point was that I think the human (and horse) in that picture is essential to its effectiveness, which in my view isn't the case in the other examples (not counting waheela's, in which we don't really see the person apart from the hands). They certainly have other qualities, but I would argue that they would generally be better without the people in them.

Well, I disagree. In most cases these other qualities greatly outweight the 'negatives'. Qualities like background story and drama that comes with it. I could only agree with you to some extent in Andail's case - and that's because the monster occupies relatively small part of the picture. Having said that, I still think Andail's decision was a 100% valid one. Pushing the moster to the background made his painting quite original and refreshing. It's one of the most creative and ambitious paintings here.

Perhaps works like Andail's or mine fit the theme of 'monster workshop' less, but thanks to introducing humans, as well as other elements (like Andail's hoverbike) we all could learn so much more. And that's what workshops are about in the end, aren't they?    

Well, we'll have to agree to disagree. 
Selmiak's entry certainly improved greatly in the final edit, but I think he could have achieved what you were missing without adding a human character to the scene.

Like how? Elaborate, please.

Introducing the story in this kind of art is easiest when it's being built on tension. And the tension is easiest to build between two opposites. Between circle and triangle, between big monster and small human, etc.

In selmiak's case, the improvement over the early version seems to me quite stunning. What was initially a picture of a cartoony, lonely creature (it wasn't even a 'monster', until selmiak painted the human in, showing the true scale of it), turned out to be one of the best paintings of the workshop. Removing a human (together with the source of warm light) would cut down it's impact by half. 

There are also pictures in which introducing human could make a painting more effective, because it would show the monster's scale, add a story and tension, like for example in cat's picture (she didn't want to paint human in because it could destroy the composition).

On a side note, Miguel had a clever idea with the dungeon door, which helped to show the real scale of his monster and he found a way (chains, blood) to introduce a story without introducing a human.

I mean it. What I've said before about beginners being afraid of using colors (in art classes even), I spoke from experience. Man, I've seen people who are so afraid of 'those disturbing colors' they hide in the cellar developing b/w photography all of their life. It's like they were looking at the world throuh their noble b/w lenses, color blind! When they see a raibow they almost faint And some of them are academic-level professors ! So yeah, it's refreshing to see a beginner who isn't afraid of colors.

[monster]

As a general comment, I think in almost all cases, introducing people into the picture has detracted from the impact of the monster.

First, humans draw a lot of attention, which means drawing it away from the monster (Andail's picture is perhaps the clearest example of this). Second, the heroic poses chosen by e.g. Kasander and Selmiak tend to change the tone from nightmarish to "video game boss battle"-ish. The only case where I think it really works is SookieSock's sketch, which successfully captures the drama of D&D art.

Well, as far as things go for me, that "video game boss battle" look was pretty much what I was aiming for. Quote from my monster thread:

"My main goal: to paint a monster that I could put in my concept art/illustration portfolio.
It has to be a monster that could be used in a video game. I'm thinking about a big, high-leveled, 'boss' type creature that player's character could encounter at the end of some maze, at the bottom of the cave or...well, at the end of the level "

As for the other people's works, I think that what you perceive as being either video game or DnD look is highly subjective. IMHO, Selmiak's picture has a very DnD feel. The whole scene is set in a dungeon, and there's that classical hero in a cape, with a torch. The earlier version of it reminded me about a scene from certain DnD book from Endless Quest series. That's because selmiak's monster was a bit frog-like to me and the setting was similar to the one pictured in the book (Dungeon of Dread, page 30). Even more so, there's waheela's picture, which as I was saying from the start, remind me of those CYOA and Endless Quest books by its first person perspective... and it's has VERY little (if any) video game feel. Shane's picture could easily fit into any CoC RPG article from rpg mag I used to read in the last millenium... On the other hand, Cerno's picture with its powerful colors remind me of expressionistic paintings and posters from 1920s-1930s. And so on...       

So I'd say, monstrosity is in the eye of beholder

PS As for me and human in my picture, you could also put the blame on Andail who posted link to Frazetta's works. Those were really inspiring. Looking at them convinced me to bring monster's opponent in    

The root in the upper right don't distract at all, they look good and I like pictures where I can find even more interesting things after seeing the main theme of the image. I'd even add them to the lower right too, it fits the theme really good. The 2nd character is also a good idea I'd like to see but time is up, I'd also like to add some more stuff to my picture

Thanks for the feedback. I'll finish this as soon as I have more time. It would be cool to have some 'monster after party' with the 'definitive' versions of the monsters . It's just that most of the folks didn't have enough time on their hands to finish their pieces and dropped out of the workshop at one point or the other.

I'd really want to encourage others to finish their works... Pursuing and finishing one thing gives you so much more than having dozen WIP on the board (I wish I knew that obvious truth much earlier).

[@ selmiak]

Great results, people.  Some of these would look great on the wall.
Kasander, yours would look excellent on a T-shirt!

Thanks!

All in all, I think everyone in this workshop did great and should give himself/herself a well-deserved pat in the back! I'm glad I could be helpful and give few ounces of advice to you guys. I wish all those who had to drop out could have more time to finish their pieces. Some of these monsters looked very promising, to say the least. 


@ selmiak
Now I wonder why you were asking about coloring before. You did some splendid work with on that piece. The progress between 'penisosaurus' and your last painting is huge. It seems to me you don't really need any special tips. You already know the 'how to do it's of digital painting very well. At this point you don't really need much advice... except maybe looking more at the references, like pictures of nature (I've noticed your tendency to do similar, oval-shaped rocks) . You can steadily improve on you own. Great idea with introducing warm source of light (torch) as opposite to the cold blue light on the left. Great lighting and shading overall. I'm really impressed.

@ Cerno
You've done great! It's looking much more polished now. I love the details and the light that comes from wizard's orb. You seem to have a good eye for picking colors, Cerno. Perhaps you should consider old-school 'acrylics/oils on canvas' painting as a hobby? As Stupot says, your painting would look great on the wall!
----




-----
Back to my monster.
It's the same picture, I've only marked some major mistakes or things which could be improved upon. It would benefit from couple hours of polishing.


1. The right arm of a warrior needs a proper, real life reference or enlisting help of some humanoid (model). I didn't have time for this, so I've only googled for javelin throwers - and it turned out there are no pics of them photographed from this very angle. An artists' anatomy book could do the trick, too.   
2. The light on parts of the warrior is too bright. It could be ok if she was closer to the monster but she's quite far actually.
3. I could introduce a third character to the scene. It would fill an empty corner of the painting and also could bring along some source of light -a torch or lantern.
4. The hanging roots were a late addition and were supposed to be an early stage of carniparas (the plant that 'grows' from monsters' hands). I think they draw a bit too much attention, so darkening should  solve the problem.
Any suggestions about these or other issues are of course most welcomed.

It's not finished but it'll have to do. Cheers!

and please explain how you color these b/w lightvolumes pictures. I always wondered how you do that? Some special layer overlay setting in PS? Or just paint over it with 100% opacity and use the b/w image as a pointer?

Basically I create a new layer on top of that grayscale one and just paint on it. For this worshop I wasn't even using overlay setting. I was just painting thigs over and over, adjusting color balance and hues, and erasing here and there. I often start from lighter tones and then gradually use darker ones - a kind of habit from pre-digital age.

When painting with brushes I use 100% opacity to 'block' colors (either on a specific part of the composition, or on the whole picture at once - the latter perhpaps is a bit wiser as it allows you to have an overall feel of the picture). Then I change the opacity a lot to do smooth transitions between colors. When I'm doing shades, I use usually the same color on the coloring wheel/square, only a darker or lighter shade. For example, to do shading on monsters arm, I press Alt to use the color picker on the monster's arm, then I pick a shade of green which is closer to black or closer to white on the color wheel. How much closer? Well, it's a matter of instinct really and it comes with experience. I remember I had this exact problem with shading when I was starting to paint in PS and the more I was painting in PS the more this problem evaporated. I know it's a cliche and everyone is telling this, but I can confirm from my own experience that practice makes you better. 

The finishing touches are done again with 100% opacity and with a small brush. Otherwise the painting would look blurry and lack focus.
If you're unsure of which colors to use, I strongly advice to create thumbnails and paint them over. Do a few of them and you'll know which colors work best for you and which way to go.

...
On a side note, I use few custom brushes that give some interesting textures to the painting. But looking at the big scheme I think they aren't that important, at least not for me. Especially when I'm aiming for less 'arty', more 'concept art' feeling. In the final phase of the painting I usually work with the default oval brush, only varying its opacity and thickness. I find custom brushes very convenient for sketches though. One could say, they give some analog soul to that soulless digital painting look

The bright background with cemetery and the clouds (I like them a lot!) draw too much attention, imo.

I reworked it a bit (see below). I smoothed out the clouds, further developed the graveyard, and added more contrast to the monster. Is this a little better? I really like the overcast sky, and would like to keep it.

Yeah, it's looking better now   Still, imho the monster is too dark compared to the rest of the painting. It's a common rule that the bright parts of the composition in painting usually grabs viewer's attention. Look at this:
http://pinterest.com/suehcarter/a-art-outdoor-portrait/

As you see, in most, if not all, daylight outdoor portraits the face of the subject is just as bright - or brighter - than the surroundings. This is the trick both 'analog' and digital painters use to focus viewer's attention on the subject/person.

In your case, the brighter surroundings (together with fortune teller's hands) take away all the attention from the lizard. Monster's chest is especially dark. I know he's supposed to be 'dark' and scary creature, but imo he wouldn't be less scary when he was painted with brighter shades and less black.

I didn't find any photos of humanoid lizards sitting outdoors at the table but maybe looking at some romanticism paintings would help? They surely loved to do overcast sky back then:
https://www.google.pl/search?q=Eug%C3%A8ne%20Delacroix%20%281798-1863%29%2C%20The%20Natchez&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:pl:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hl=enbm=isch&source=og&sa=Nab=wi&ei=cz6iUZbAH-iO7QbQ7IDIBg&biw=960&bih=452&sei=dT6iUZ_ODIKQ7AbstICwBg#imgrc=_

Keep up the good work!

[selmiak]

All right, the majority has spoken!

The second voting is now oficially over (before it began).

*clears throat*

First of all, congratulation to all the participants. To behold so many different takes on coexistence theme was truly a heart-warming experience for me!

And now, for the awards:

a golden medal for the 1st place winner

...goes to selmiak

A silver medal for the 2nd place goes to...

ex aequo (in the order of appearance):

Ghost

... and jwalt

... and Adrian

... and waheela!

The jury of the competition has unanonimously decided to award a bronze medal,

as a 'special prize for putting the effort as well as for fair play'

...to Cerno!

This way no one will walk empty-handed and no medal is without bearer.
The jury encourages all participants to accept the awards.


That's all, folks!

*merry melody tunes in*

Coexist in peace and harmony (wnenever it's possible) and be creative!

[Kasander]

Kasander, hmmm, I absolutely love your monster, but the pastel colors and chalky painting style kind of remind me of a children's book illustration, which makes it less scary for me.

Don't worry, getting into details is my next step

@Cerno:
I'm glad some of my suggestions have worked out for you You've made a very good decision to use such strong, powerful colors. And a bold one! Sometimes people shy away from using bright colors - like the reds in your painting - so I can only applaud that. And it suits the theme of your composition - which is 'clash of two elemental powers in the hellish land of volcanoes' - very well. It has a  poster-like, expressive look (I mean like proper pre-1990s poster) - simple shapes and colors that draw attention.
I think now is the time to introduce more details, as well as different shades of red and blue, to your painting.
As for the colors, perhaps it would be a good idea to make the blue color near the center of wizard's orb brighter (after all, his orb is acting like a source of light).
Be careful about the volcanoes - the lava is naturally supposed to be bright, so it tends to draw attention away from the main heroes of the composition (monster and wizard)... The volcano with flowing lava streams on the left from wizard is a good example of such 'attention grabber'. You could push it to the back, darken it or make the platform on which wizard stands bigger, so it will obscure the volcano. 
Regarding the monster itself, try to vary thickness of its body, especially limbs and tail. Have a look at the references we've gathered in this thread so far (as well as that simplified monster drawing in one of my previous posts.
I forgot to mention: I also like the flames coming out of the dragon's eyes . I have no idea what they are/how are they possible, I'm just suspending my disbelief here;) That's pretty unique, a dragon with flaming eyes - literally

@waheela:
I like how accurately you've drawn the fortune teller's hands - well done! Also, the monster's grin is great. 
If you have problems drawing embossed leather try to just make it brighter, 'push it forward' by painting with lighter shades.
The bright background with cemetery and the clouds (I like them a lot!) draw too much attention, imo. Perhaps you should think about making the monster brighter? There's also the possibility of changing the day for night and using the artificial source of light (like lantern) to lit  the cards and table. Maybe you could paint some thumbnail sketches to try out some other options and see which one works best for you? I can't help noticing the fortune teller's hands are still very small compared to the lizard:)

@Selmiak,
Change of scale paid off. Introducing an opponent for your penisosaurus was a good idea.  Before that, I've imagined the monster to be only slightly bigger than a frog. Now I wonder if you are going to paint that tongue.

@ mordalles
Brilliant It's getting better and better. I like the ribcage on monster's back! I hope you'll have time to color it.

@ SookieSock
i like your monster much better now. It's really more believable than it was before. Also, I like the shading. Carry on!

Cat, that's actually a vote against voting!

I tell you what. If there's more votes against voting, I'll do as you said. Majority will decide. Damn, I hate democracy. 

[FOUR]

All right, the voting is over, but we have a situation here.

A so-called 'coexistential paradox', in which too many organic beings (here: FOUR AGSers) are supposed to coexist with ONE non-organic thing (in this case, a silver medal). I really want to give an award to everyone of you guys***, but four ex aequos is a bit too many, and I don't want to devalue AGS silver reserves (think about the wider scale economic repercussions here!). Also, that would leave bronze medal needless.

So, after I've belatedly read Cerno's suggestions about the new voting system (wish I'd read them BEFORE voting, my bad), I've decided to organize the voting again. Yeah, I know, I don't like it either. Apologies for inconvenience, but we really do have a kind of impasse here.
   
This time, we'll do things like Baron did in last Writing Competition. 

So, the voting guidelines are:

1. You must choose your three favourite examples of coexistence and rank them by preference. 

2. The first in your list (which should be indicated as 1st) will be apportioned 3 points, the second (which should be indicated as 2nd) will be given two points, and the third (labelled 3rd) only 1 point.  This means you have six points to award. 

3. In the event that you can't decide 1st-3rd you may give 3 second places (3 x 2 points =6 points), but no voter can award more than 3 points to any contestant and no voter can award more than 6 points total.  Here's an example of what your ballot should look like:

1st place = Baron (3 points)
2nd place = Pumaman (2 points)
3rd place = Richard Nixon (1 point)

(guidelines copyright by Baron)

Voting lasts till the end of week (till Monday, 00:01, time zone UTC +1).
On Monday I'll count the totals and award the prizes.

AND NOW, PLEASE CAST YOUR VOTE! 


*** There will be special commemorative badge for each participant to take. That's  because I don't want the now-silver-medalists to go away empty handed when they'll lose the podium after the new voting ends. To tell you the truth I've intended to do that anyway when the competition was still running, because I liked how people have put some real effort here... and now I see jwalt even painted a second example of coexistence (out of competition) - how cool is that? 

[Week 2, step 1, 'Better late than never' or 'Coloring the damn thing']

Week 2, step 1, 'Better late than never' or 'Coloring the damn thing'  

I thought I'll be more active in this week but life got in the way  Only today I could find some more time to paint. I'll give you guys some feedback later

While painting, I've experimented with different color variants (using Color Balance in Photoshop), looking for the one I'd like most.



I wanted colors to be vibrant, but not too vibrant. Oversaturation, as seen on the middle thumbnail in the lower row, was out of question.

After few attempts, I've found the color palette I like. 



Here's the same picture, only with Curves adjusted in PS:



I'll probably do something in between.

I'm afraid I won't have time to experiment with changing the scenery or making the cave less generic, but it's not that important. Next, I'll work on details with small brush. There's also that monster's opponent to paint. I'll probably have to make canvas bigger to make room for the human. Still quite a lot to do with that painting.     

Feedback is most welcome

Read my monster thread

[Cerno]

All right folks, the time's up!
Thanks to all the participants for all these wonderful, highly co-existential entries! Now it's time to vote for your favorite example of coexistence.

Here are the entries, followed by authors' descriptions, in the order of appearance:

1. by Cerno:

[imgzoom]http://i42.tinypic.com/314v5mx.png[/imgzoom]
"Someone ventured into the wrong cave and returned in coexistence with an alien species. Omnomnom."


2. by Ghost:

[imgzoom]http://i.imgur.com/fWfn8G7.png[/imgzoom]
"Where-ever Quoth the Raven is, his Big Blue Cup* is never amiss!
And that is how they co-exis(t)."


3. by jwalt:

[imgzoom]http://i1341.photobucket.com/albums/o756/jwalt10705/colorBallKiss1_zpsbf9755cb.png[/imgzoom]
"A truce in the Battle of the Sexes."


4. by Adrian:

[imgzoom]https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/11927285/AGS/coloringballmay2013.png[/imgzoom]
"A rhino with an oxpecker on it as an example of coexistence in mutualism."


5. by Selmiak:

[imgzoom]http://selmiak.bplaced.net/stuff/coexistence.png[/imgzoom]
"the true nature of beings reflects in their coexistence as they always coexist with their reflection..."


6. by waheela:

[imgzoom]http://i.imgur.com/hVPSw5k.png[/imgzoom]
"It's a hermit crabbish creature with carnivorous worms living in its shell."


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Voting ends May 23rd (Thursday)!


*** It seems like selmiak forgot to meet the additional requirement and didn't describe his picture (busy in the Monster's workshop, I suppose?). So selmiak, it would be cool if you could make up for it while the voting lasts I'll edit this post as soon as I have the description.

EDIT: Description updated!   

@ Misj'

It's great that you took the time to draw these ancient principles mate

The thing with the golden ratio is, it's mainly used to show perfect proportions. Flow, as you said. Balance, harmonies, etc. Mostly in architecture, also in classical (ancient) sculpture (it can also be  observe in the nature a lot). That's where it's used.

But the illustration - especially a film-like, live-action one like yours -  is a bit different animal. Sure it can show balance, and the composition could be graceful and elegant.

But the theme of your ilustration is the confrontation (monster vs humans), not a still nature or some other peaceful scene. The golden rule surely can be applied to it, but imo it doesn't serve you that well.

If you were to go for the rule of the thirds' though, it's really easy to apply (no need to get rid of the monks!). Just rotate the monster a bit, so she appears to be facing them. Bend her, twist her - and perhaps you'll get some more 'monstrosity' in the process from her;)  Or move the monks to the right and make the pillar next to them thinner.

Anyway, it's all up to you. I like the overall mood of the piece, and it's so well executed, but just it's a bit too 'balanced' for a 'fighting monster' scene! Cheers and have fun with you piece!

[don't hesitate before it's too late! SHOW SOME PERSISTENCE FOR COEXISTENCE!]

Since I'm leaving for weekend an will be offline anyway, I thought I could as well extend the deadline for a day.

So I'm shouting out to all of the hesitant AGSers out there: perhaps it's time to have a second though about it and to show us your interpretation of what coexistence could look like?

Nursery rhyme of the day: don't hesitate before it's too late! SHOW SOME PERSISTENCE FOR COEXISTENCE! 

[@ ThreeOhFour]

First of all: everyone, thanks a lot for the comments and feedback!

For last couple of days I had no time to work on my monster. And it seems I'm going to be offline for the whole weekend, and since my tablet is a monster itself, digital painting is out of question ;(  I guess I won't be posting anything new until Monday or so :/ Maybe I'll do some proper analog painting for a change, if I have time - even a simple watercolor doodle can sometimes make a cool, usable texture. Anyway, keep up the good work, guys and gals!



SOME LATE FEEDBACK:

@ ThreeOhFour

I like the spikes (I have very fond memories of Doom, too ). I'd even suggest adding more of them (perhaps little ones?), to make the monster look even more dangerous.

There's one spike that doesn't convince me, though: the one in monster's jaw. I just can't imagine Mr Spikey sitting on his throne and having a nap: this spike would hurt his chest! I'd suggest bending it outwards so it could be more practical for a tired, hard-working monster (which I believe he is). 

I also like the overall ambience, the red pool beneath monster's feet (I wonder what's in it) . Cool. Carry on!

@ Cerno

I know you've decided to abandon 3/4 due to lack of time, but I'll post this anyway.



It's the quick sketch I did yesterday trying to simplify your monster (the old version of it ) to make it easier to draw. Helpful or not, I just didn't want it go to waste Have fun and be patient to your monster! It'll pay off

@ waheela

Fortune-teller's hands are closer on your last sketches, so the distance is not an issue anymore. Still you could make them bigger, they look realy tiny atm. No matter how big the fortune teller's hands would be, your monster will appear dominant anyway - since it's occupying most of the picture.

IMO, you shouldn't worry too much about the cemetary atm, at least not until you have the monster and the fortune teller pretty much 'nailed'. They are like two starring actors of your composition and the cemetery is having 'only' a supporting role. At least that's the way I see it.

One more thing: if you're fully convinced about placing your scene at the cemetery (which is an unusual place to have a tarot reading - but I like this idea anyway), you could have them dealing cards on someone's gravestone.

You could also consider having monster in the centre, so the cemetery would be visible on both of its sides. Yeah, I know that's quite a lot of things to consider;)

Well, that's all for now. Good luck and have fun!

[@ Cerno]

Phew...It took me ages to write!
You guys just turn a blind eye on all those grammar and language mistakes I've undoubtedly committed.

It's all written in a good spirit, so I hope nobody feels offended or anything. It's quite obvious that some of you are more experienced and some are less. I just wanted to shout out to the not-so-experienced ones: you folks are doing great and can only get better. But I suppose you already know it .

@ Cerno

To paint attacking dragon is an ambitious task so I can only praise that kind of attitute I like the tension and stark contrast between huge dragon and tiny wizard. I like the idea with the platform on which wizard stands, it's very expressive.

The most important thing that I wanted to suggest is what loominous already said: a 3/4  view for the composition. As it is now, the dragon appears to be flying from the side of the screen, while the wizard stands on a platform that points across the screen.

Since the platform is a triangle and it points towards dragon, it kind of 'attacks' the monster visually (and the wizard, as the one that stands on the platform is, I could say, in the 'attacking' team/party).

Let's have a look at this simplified drawings here (inspired by Frazetta, thanks to Andail's links).



When you'll have your dragon's pose set, you could try to visually empower/amplify his 'attacking stance' by trying to give the background behind it a shape that somehow resembles a triangle pointed at the wizard (you can do that by shaping the rocks or volcanos or... I'll just leave it to you). Pointed shapes in composition, when facing each other, create a feeling of tension. Well, that's something to consider for later.

Apart from boosting the dynamic/expression of the painting, the 'triangle versus triangle' or the 'triangle versus circle' could become a sort of archetypical clash, for example like between the fire-breathing-dragon and water-elemental-mage. It's just one of the possibilities. From my experience I know that adding some meaning (even if it's a kind of coloristic meaning) makes one's work more powerful. So that's another thing for you to consider.



Waheela had a great idea with posting the 'attacking eagle'. Just study it and try to put your dragon in similar pose. If it proves difficult, try to simplify it to basic figures and shapes like circles and align its limbs according to lines of perspective. I was never good at these skeleton-sketches which Misj do with such ease. He would certainly do a much better one! Anyway, I just wanted to point out that this dragon of yours seems to have some parts of a reptile and parts of a flying creature, like bat (well, one part at least - wings)... Perhaps you could find some other living creatures (or ex-creatures, like dinosaurs) who could model for your monster and could be simplified into basic shapes. 

One more thing to consider: As it is with miguel's monster, your dragon's upper limbs seems to me to be 'too human'. I think you could try to make them more reptile-like. Try looking for photographic references of dinosaurs, crocodiles, or perhaps some other animal that somehow resembles a dragon in this aspect and could lend your monster a pair of hands

EDIT: You could have a look at these guys:
http://www.floridajewel.com/animals/lizards.htm

@ Shane

Your Cthulhu painting seems to be the most ambitious painting of the workshop to me. So much has to happen there, so many elements you want to include. There are 3 parties in the composition and there are at least 3 major actions happening at the same time - while most of the illustrations visualize only one or two 'actions' (man fighting with monster, the prince saving the princess etc), and show one or two 'parties' (by 'party' here I mean at least 1 person or creature being on one side of the conflict or event). Even then people sometimes have trouble telling what are they about.

The monster's stance - one hand raised, the boat crushed in the other - speaks about hostility - which, seems to be aimed towards the petty mortals gathered on the cliff. The sharpshooter - with rifle aimed at the main cultist in the crowd - is obviously hostile towards them too. The problem is, at first glance I thought the sniper was monster's sidekick.  That's because he's on the same side of the screen the monster is. Only reading your description made things more obvious.

IMO, placing all of the three 'parties' in the straight perspective line could help to make things clearer. With 'sniper (A) in the foreground (on the left OR right side) , then the cultists (B) in the middle, then the monster (C) in the background (cornerwise to sniper).

--------- CCC --
------BBB------
--AAA----------

Getting rid of one of the 'parties' could prove an easier fix, but I like your ambitious  idea.

+++

I like the ambitious, epic scale of your painting. It really feels like a half of Lovecraft's short story squeezed into one picture

@ miguel

Your monster's arms seem a bit too human to me. I'd suggest transplanting a set of tyrannosaurus rex arms, I think something like that could fit well.   

You also *could* try to make the wall appear less monotonous, now it's pretty ordinary wall with brick by brick by brick. But it's not that much important imho. All of the viewers attention is directed at the monster, and I like it that way.
If you plan to chain the monster to the wall, you could try to make it appear desperate/resigned/depressed/frustrated/angry  - like any captured animal, including human, could feel... so the viewer could somehow relate to it. His face is big, so you should have no trouble with showing any emotions there    

+++

I like the huge, disproportional face. It's also nicely and accurately lit. I also like that the monster is captured, in starkly contrast with the all free-roaming monsters in this workshop.

@ Misj'

Your monster's wing is cropped in quite unfortunate way. A wing is an irregular shape, more complicated than any rectangles or circles, so it's not so easy to crop. In your monster's case cropping it further would jeopardize the sense of composition, the sense of having such fine-winged creature in your painting. That's why I'd rather suggest to move the monster to the right and save her from crippling That way the monster would also appear in one of the power points of the composition. By the 'power points' I mean the points of crossing lines in the 'rule of thirds' type composition (See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rule_of_thirds or here, with more examples: http://www.photo96.com/blog/?p=371).

Diggression
(@ for everyone!):
If there's someone in this worshop who's reading about the rule of thirds for the first time, then I suggest looking further than wiki. The above links show photo examples but the rule is really ages old, and was in use long before the advent of photography...as well as other commonly used composition principles, like golden ratio. Well, you could always consider reading a book on composition techniques (especially if there are paintings included as examples).
End of diggression, going back to Misj'!

The other problem is the one you've noticed yourself. The 'cuteness' of your creature, which results from using the cartoony style This is the monster's workshop, but she's not quite that 'monstrous'...at least not yet;) But it's debatable I suppose, perhaps other folks here would call her that.

+++

I like all of the characters' poses (expressive and well executed poses!) and the fact that your painting tells a story. It's also a clear, instantly readable story, which is a great plus.
     
@ dactylopus

(written BEFORE last updade - you're just too fast dactylopus:))
Another ambitious artist here. That's a difficult pose you've picked for your monster here.
You could find some decent photographic references for human limbs, look at them and try to apply to you painting. Then you can add some demon hair

I could also suggest two ways this composition could go: you could try to (drastically) lower point of view as if 'the camera' was behind humans back, and the human would find himself below the monster and between its spread legs. With the demon reaching out to grab human, its hand would be probably just as big as human itself. So that's one idea -it would boost the expression but you would have the monster at the most difficult angle to draw. And you'd probably have to cover monster's private parts with its reaching hand
Other idea: since the monster is gigantic, let's make it look even bigger. In order to do that, you could crop the picture by cutting out the parts of cavern around the demon. Then you would probably have to make human visible and closer to the monster by elevating him, placing on some rock platform or bridge or something. Now, this would make reaching for his meal much easier for the monster, I'm sure it would appreciate the effort;) 

+++

I like the monster's scale versus human, I like the fact you went the hard route and chose a dynamic pose for the demon.
EDIT (after your last update): I like it in color. Still you could use some human references for this guy.

@ cat

Can't tell much about it at this point;) 
I like the dynamism and the perspective lines which add even more expression. I wonder what you will make of it. Looking forward to see your monster's monstrosity

@ loominous

I like it a lot. Beautiful Rembrandt-style lighting and warm sepia tones. I wonder if/how you will broaden the palette and which way you'll go with it!

@ waheela

The distance between two hands seems too wide to me. It's a bit like we were looking at the scene through a camera with wide-angle lenses. I'd suggest showing more of the right hand by pushing it forward a bit, and placing left hand (with the card) up, in one of the power points of composition (see 'rule of thirds' above). That way you could also play with the card and even show us a picture which is on it (if it's tarot). Since it's fortune telling, maybe it's the one card the monster wouldn't want the fortune-teller to pick? Or the opposite... You know what I mean. It's up to you.

You could also try to make the monster lean forward towards the fortune-teller. It would shift monster's bodyweight to the one supporting hand and could potentially make an interesting pose and face expression (like: 'I don't believe in this tarot stuff but I'm gonna try it anyway' or 'if she lies about my past now, I'll have her for dinner').

+++

I like your idea very much. The use of first person point of view is quite uncommon in illustration. It remind me so much about Joe Dever's and various kinds of CYOA books that I was reading ages ago. Yeah...ubercool books which used to turn teenagers into heroes Maybe it would help more to search for them or at least google for illustrations. You could also play/google some FPP games like Skyrim in which you spend a lot of time looking at your character's hands

@ Nihilyst

At the beginning your sketches were very dark (almost unreadable) so I'm glad things are getting clearer now, and that the picture still retains that gloom & doom feel. Your idea of monster is very interesting and I'm looking forward to see more The thing I miss a bit is the focal point in the composition that would grab my attention. As of now it's very homogeneous, 'background-like' composition. Consider if you could and should break this uniformity by some flicker of light on one of those 'monstrovolcanos', or a change of texture, or, I don't know... Perhaps some small monster who would live off the humongous one?

@ Mordalles

I like how you've approached the 'construction' of this monster. The risk of crossing the turtle with insect paid off. I like its shape, its scale in comparison to small humans below. I'd really like to see it move, it would make a cool addition to your next game
Perhaps you could spread and bend monster's 'fingers' (at least in the front legs) so they would appear more flexible... This would increase creature's mobility and give him ability to grab things. They look a bit too much like tree branches now.

Anyway, this looks like a piece of good concept art to me. Bravo!

@ Andail

I hope this won't upset you too much

I must say I liked the fat monster from the previous sketch (floating1.png) more than the current, thinner one. It was looking more majestic, more 'B-47 flying fortress' type, while the new one is a kind of 'F-15 fighter' type. Maybe the new one doesn't seem deadly enough to me yet, I'm not sure. Or maybe it's just me and it's only a matter of personal preference.

In general, I was VERY impressed by the look of your old sketch and by its raw, kinetic power. It also seemed a cool and clever idea to have such a huge monster occupying so little space on the painting. IMO, your current sketch (as of Wednesday night CET) isn't as good. I really think you've nailed everything in the first one. The thing that I loved the most was that there were two pairs of eyes as the focal points of composition. One pair (cold white eyes) belonged to the monster in the distance, while the other (red back lights) belonged to the vehicle in the foreground. I'm not sure to what extent it was or wasn't intentional, but thanks to this 'eyes-to-eyes' analogy I've observed, I started to interpret your painting as an eternal clash: nature (here represented by an ages-old monster) versus civilization (represented by this new type of vehicle).

And now something about the new one, for a change What I like a lot about you current sketch is the fact that the monster appears from behind the building so there's no telling how humongous this really is, there's only a suggestion it's huge. I also like the dynamic perspective of the buildings and the bend. I'm really curious about which way you'll go with this.

I wish you could  go back to the 'no.1' later and finish it by just adding more details (that is, after you end with the current one) if you have the will and time, so we could compare them and see which one works better. Or maybe I'm wrong and you'll surpass that old one and make me forget about it. That's what I wish to you. 

@ Selmiak

I like the ambience of your painting. As you've said, you could add something or someone to the picture to make things a bit more dramatic. There's still some space left on that stone  

@ SookieSock

You've decided to give your monster human joints. This makes a wood-solid, ent-like creature appear less believable. The guy is basically a walking tree-trunk and... well, I just can't believe you can bend a tree like this, it'll snap! I think you could either make the monster (and his joints) more human, or more 'entish', more tree-like. You could also think about what to do with that black hole in the trunk. IMO, you should put your monster's weak point there (eyes or brains etc), so the whole situation with the archer aiming at it seems credible and convincing.
 
I love the amazon/archer on a horse. It's such a difficult pose. You surely know how to paint those beasts... Well done!

@ Snarky

I'll join the others in the choir: great choice of perspective (and one of the trickiest angles to draw).  You could push it even further and try to 'rotate' the floor clockwise or counter-clockwise so the floor line wouldn't be parallel to the border of the painting as it is now. This would make it more dynamic, but would probably require changing the composition from the centre-oriented (with monster in the centre of picture) to a 'rule-of-thirds' type (monster/monster's face in one of the power points of the composition). You could also try and put a fish-eye lens on it (if only for fun ). Even a cow looks somehow unsettling in a fish-eye: http://www.photoplusmag.com/files/2012/11/Photoshop-Elements-fish-eye-finish.jpg

-------------------------

That's all for now folks. It was quite draining and I'm a slow writer. I hope it won't be too out-of-date in the moment I post it because of newly uploaded sketches & monsters

Cheers and have fun with your monsters, everyone!

---last (?) EDIT (16.05 past 10 PM CET): I hear grammar police knocking at my door. I knew they were looking for me for a long time but I thought changing my identity would help... I was wrong. Well, it was nice having this monster workshop with youuuuuuuuuuuuu
---EDIT 2: Grammar police said I should edit digression (see above). This digression is like doing public works, it's for everyone, they said, all the public should benefit from this. So I've edited it. Who knows, maybe I'll serve shorter term now?

This workshop is moving so fast Reposting my monster:

[imgzoom]http://i.imgur.com/DUkQiKv.jpg[/imgzoom]

I've started writing feedback for you guys earlier today... that's a lot of monsters to comment on! 

[a bit like Matthew Broderick in Ladyhawke]

Kasander this is pretty impressive. I'd say keep the opponent in or the pose really makes no sense. Also the light on the feet is a bit off, the one foot closer to the lightsource is darker.

Kasander: I think your last version without the person standing there works perfectly well, I just wonder where the light source is, that makes the highlights on the front of the monster.

Haha    Thanks Selmiak, thanks Cat! I like your different opinions about the presence/absence of monster's oponent Well, I'll definitely try to do a version with the oponent, since it's more challenging one (and in the spirit of those Frazetta's monster paintings that Andail linked to in the first post). And if I fail miserably, I'll just keep reminding myself about what Cat said here;) 

The light (on the monster as well as everywhere else) is definitely going to be more realistic before I call it quits. I'll keep your suggestions in mind doing the next stages, thanks! 

@SookieSock 
Your welcome

The second, much younger, monk (apprentice) would serve as the comic-relief; a bit like Matthew Broderick in Ladyhawke. Of course I will only create this one scene, but drawing characters (with character) is much easier with a back-story.

I hope this young monk won't ruin your painting the way M.B. ruined that movie Other than that, I think it's definitely a good idea to introduce these characters into your composition