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And I agree with you on games that are terribly like what you described. But in the end, if a game has an element like that, I don't think's necessarilly a bad thing. As long as they manage to make the game fun, job well done as far as I'm concerned. I think that is the best judge of good game design.

A game that has those yes/no options, promised more, did not pull off the 'enjoyment' thing... sure, that sucks.

I'm guilty of using that line myself a lot, but I think we should be careful when saying, "people who don't know any better". I think you could make the argument that sometimes knowing the general school of game design can ruin something that would otherwise be enjoyable.

And for the record, I was role playing long before I had my first copy of windows too. I don't even understand what that's supposed to mean.

I meant your calm blue ocean advice

Ah poor poor Helm, you can't appreciate the beauty that is simply having emotion and excitement without a big prize at the end of it.

To be honest, the number of games I love that are still sitting around either on apartment or on my computer, saved right before the end, is staggering. I often have so much playing the game that once I can see it's gonna end, that's when my interest wanes. I can live without the ending sometimes, as long as I had fun on the journey. Mario and Luigi RPG is one of those games... still haven't finished it but I'm totally satisfied from playing most of it.

I recommend that blue ocean thing too. ^_^

EDIT: My argument against that being "bad" game design is that it does what it was intended to do for the people intended to enjoy it. Just because it's not your thing, doesn't make it wrong. It's right for me. I wouldn't presume to tell an FPS player what makes a good FPS game because I don't really enjoy them and I hardly ever play them. The fans of something should be the ultimate judge of something. If there are no fans... then you've got problems.

Ah, if we're bringing up text adventures, I think the black avatar character is especially good. I particularly liked the freedom in Leather Goddesses of Phobos. Not only could you choose the sex of your character, but you could choose how dirty they were.

Didn't he say it wasn't an entry though?

It's fine game design. The problem is that you're not receptive to it, you're not the sort of person these games are designed for.

It created passion inside me for the game. A game shouldn't just give you what you want, it should tease you sometimes. A good game is like good sex with a temptress, not a prostitute who does what you tell her to do ^_^

Wow, I've never even heard of it but if it's as good as all that... what system was it on?

I loved Dizzy games... they infuriated me and I only ever finished one in my whole life (not through lack of trying either. Those things were either really hard, or I just sucked at them) but I loved them. Treasure Island Dizzy, if I'm remembering right, was the best, but I never finished it.

ARGH!!! I just wrote a big post and it was lost. Fuck. Fuckitty fuck.

Okay, I'll do my best to sum it up.

Admittedly, RPGs have in general been going downhill for a long time, and I was talking about those previous games mainly in the context of the time they were released, but without a doubt they are still my favourite games ever and I play them constantly even these days. I don't play that many RPGs these days unless they have "Harvest Moon" in the title. I'm playing one called Iron Feather right now which is very, very pretty, but a little lacking storywise. I recently bought Children of Mana but have yet to even take it out of the plastic wrapping, and I've heard it's a dungeon trawler that doesn't live up to the orignal SNEs Secret of Mana.

I just want to point anyone who's interested in the direction of this article written about FFIV by Tim Rogers: http://www.insertcredit.com/features/ffdog/ffiv/ffivindex.html
It pretty much sums up my feelings on the game.

There are still plenty of awesome RPGs being released that either take things in a new direction or just do the old thing really well. Skies of Arcadia is a VERY excellent game and Vince will back me up on -that- one. I hope. I would be thrilled if more RPGs were like that.

Also take into account that a lot of decent RPGs don't get released in the west. Also, I play a lot of games in Japanese and there are often things that get cut from the story or messed up in translation, and these can have a significant effect on the coolness factor of a game. ALSO take into account that a lot of RPGs are so into taking things in a new direction that you probably just don't think of them when you think of RPGs, so of course the stereotypical ones are what you're thinking of, and of course they're just getting more and more stereotypical as time goes on.

As further examples off the top of my head, noone should discount the -excellent- RPGs that have been coming out of the Mario franchise. Paper Mario 1 and 2 are both AMAZING games are easily in my top ten. Mario and Luigi RPG is also a great game. Again, I bought the sequel and again I haven't played it yet, but the original was a very very good game with some very unique approaches to gameplay and plot and yet still followed in the traditional style of RPGs.

I'll also mention that I haven't played a FF game since 6. They all look like utter shit to me. BUT I must say that I7m beginning to get interested in the latest one. They have promo movies of it playing in all the convenience stores here and it looks and sounds pretty damn impressive.

Also, I haven't played any of them but I've never heard a bad word about Kingdom Hearts 1 and 2, which when I first heard about it, sounded like the most spastic, ridiculous, insane, stupid ideas for game ever. Now I find myself wanting to get back to Aust. where I have access to playstations so I can find out for myself. Most of the people who have been telling me how good it is are the kinds of people who don't even play RPGs normally, and would ordinarilly be making fun of the game just like I did. They were all beaten into submission by it's ... fun-ness, apparently. I can't help but be interested now. That and for a couple of weeks there, you couldn't go anywhere in Japan without hearing the theme song it was associated with, which was pretty catchy, though I have no idea if it has that song associated with it in the US/European releases.

EDIT: Oh! Silly me. And of course, Giftpia is one of the greatest games ALL time. A very unique RPG with a fantastic atmosphere.

EDIT: And this is really off-topic, I don't even know why I'm saying this... you've all just got me mushy thinking about why I love these games so much. As one example, in Breath of Fire II, there are really sort of two girls that you can imagine you're chasing as the main character; Katt and Nina. I chose Katt because she was one of the best characters I'd ever happened across in a game up to that point. Anyway, there's this one scene where another NPC has the hots for Katt, and Katt panics and runs behind you [main character]. The NPC, Tigaa (Tiger? Can't remember the spelling) gets the idea that you two are a couple and proposes that he will fight you for her. You're given the opportunity at this stage to say, "Oh heck no, we're just friends. Have her." or "We are more than friends, you stay the heck away from her" (in a nutshell).

If you choose the former, the story continues on as normal and Katt goes on to try and convince Tiger she isn't in love with him on her own. If you choose to fight him, you er, fight him. Now, there's NO way to beat him. It's not written into the script, he has unlimited HP. But I tried SO GOD-DAMNED HARD to kick that son of a bitch' ass. I would reload my game every time I died, go off and level, have another go at it... "Maybe he has like, 99,999 HP or something" I would tell myself. In the end, I would concede defeat and the story would continue on the same path.

Now, I could say that it was cruel of the programmers to put that little path in, especially with the added frustration of an unbeatable fight. You could say that there was no point, and technically, there wasn't. Katt didn't warm up to you anymore because of your efforts to win her heart.

But for me, it made a huge difference. It made me feel really, really cool that they had at least acknowledged that some players would want the player character to end up with Katt, and it made me feel so cool that I at least had that chance to fight for her, regardless of the result. From then on, I felt that the little sprite of Katt DID acknowledge my little player sprite had fought for her, and that there was a spark. It wasn't there in the code, but it was there in my head as I played the game.

This isn't an example of, "Do you want to do this?" "Are you Sure?" "Are you sure?" x 100... but it was the tiniest little thing that made such a difference to my overall impression of the game. I've even considered hacking the game and inventiny my own ending to that fight where you can beat Tigaa. I know there are hundreds of BoFII fans out there that went through the same thing as me, according to all the threads I've ever read asking desperately if there's a way to defeat him.

There were many moments during that game that I cried too. The one that -always- gets me going everytime is when Rand's mother sacrifices herself (getting squished between two blocks of stone) in front of his eyes. I don't care if the game has a cliched plot, everything in it meant a lot to me and has shaped the way I think about games and storylines in general.

It's about those tiny, tiny little things, for me. Not the overall storyline.

As far as FFIV goes, the couple I was really interested in was Rydia and Edge. There were these tiny, nothing moments of programming added in where Rydia would go over to Edge... look to the side, look back. GOD, there was so much emotion wrapped up in those tiny commands. They made the game for me.

In summary, this is probably what role-playing game means to me. The programmers giving you even a tiny opportunity to imagine your own little bits of story. If I had no interest in Edge and Rydia for example, there was no need to pay any attention to those little things. If I did, and I did, I could make a mountain out of them, which I did.

As one more tedious example, in Terranigma, there's a scene where you are on a ship with upper-world Elle, just having saved her from some ghosts. She's been a cold bitch to you so far, but I used to stand my character next to her and make them watch the sea a little together. I'm that much of a nerd, but the story left itself open enough that I could do that and make it apart of -my- story, the story I wanted the game to have, and it didn't feel silly at all. Not like those times I would get my character in Secret of Mana to constantly walk into the "sexy" green haired girl NPCs and make it look like they were having sex. That was silly. ^_^

I think the problem is that you see a cliche, and label that as a bad thing, whereas I don't. I can get over a "you're the chosen hero" plot, as long as the other things in the game make it fun for me. I -loved- the characters in FFIV, and I -loved- the characters in BoFII, and the fact that you stopped playing Terranigma when the animals started talking means you BARELY played any of the game at all.

Where's Rincewind? He'd back me up on that one.

There are only so plots you can use to have a hero running around with a sword in an RPG. I congratulate people who stray from this and try something new, but I still love that style of game. Much the same as the way I still love picking up items and using them on things and solving puzzles. It's not nostalgia, it's the kind of game I like.

My policy is that people who don't like the kind of threads we have in gen-gen should start making whatever kinds of threads they think we -should- have ^_- Get on it, Nipper!

Sorry to drag this up, but a friend got me playing this game last night and I nearly peed from laughing so hard at the opening. Really fun game! I got stuck but I'm determined to go back and finish it after work tonight ^_^

A work of genius!!

Japanese RPGs often have a lack of character in their main character, but there are plenty that don't... uh, have a lack...! My all-time favourite game ever, Terranigma, has a main character with more personality than most adventure games, and the story is very open to taking different paths.

To label all RPGs as having stiff storylines and blank main characters is just ignorant. There are so many of different characteristics, JUST like adventure games. Imagine if someone came here and said that adventure games suck because they've played things like King's Quest.

To stick up for the RPGs that -do- have the stiff storylines, part of the fun is that you still go around talking to different people, doing your own mini quests or playing the games mini games... you make the story yourself a lot of the time. The same could be said for adventure games with avatar-ish characters, though there usually is more room to do so in an RPG simply because of the freedom of levelling up and shopping and whatnot. I find adventure games have a higher chance and by design are much more susceptable to being one dimensional and stiff.

Actually, I'll also mention my second favourite game ever, Breath of Fire II. This game had a very avatar-ish main character, who never spoke and you occasionally gave YES/NO directions to. Yet, that game had one of the most impressive storylines ever, several very different endings and many different paths throughout the game. You would play it 10 times and play a completely different way each time.

My third favourite game ever if Final Fantasy IV, which had what I consider to be an absolute operatic storyline. The main character had tonnes of personality and spoke all the time, making his own value judgements with no input from you whatsoever, and yet compared to the previous two games I mentioned, a very linear storyline. That didn't matter at all, the game knew what it was doing so I didn't -need- to have any input into the story. Awesome game.

Unless they managed to get the plane working again and flew back through the worm hole!

Though I am also of the school of thought that time does not exist. There is no travelling along it, as far as I'm concerned.

Yeah, let's make that destinction. An 'empty' player character in an RPG isn't always a bad thing, because sometimes you like to take on your own role. But it doesn't work as often in adventure games, because you're playing, usually, a much stiffer storyline. I'd always prefer my adventure game players have good personality.

Yeah, like that person in the window?

Stupid? It's an opinion. I think latin girls look better than asian girls in general. I didn't have any interest in Japaese guys until today. It doesnt mean anything.

And look, manga is the way it is because it was a gradual change over the years, with lots of different influences. Sure, Tezuka was influenced by Disney a lot. Tezuka is one of a gazillion manga artists though, and they didn't all spring forth from him. They're all different people, they have their own personal influences, and a great deal of it didn't have crap to do with the west.

Totoro, your sprite looks really good ^_^

To be immortal, and to have a variety of magic blast attacks, and mild psychic connection to a cute girl that I love.

A manga called 3x3 Eyes has shown me that this is most definitely the way to go.

I've learnt in the past year or so that your life will only get better and better through having as many experiences as you can. Just accept that sometimes you'll go through pain and hardship, because the highs as long as you keep trying new things and trying to be happy will be WAY worth it! There's something really awesome about realising you've become a better person through experience ^_^

Wow, uh... where did you guys get this idea? They like a lot of western stuff, but Japanese people have QUITE a thing for their own stuff too. I depends who you talk to and what you're talking about, but I can assure you that in my limited experience over here, I've experienced more people telling me how great the Japanese way is than the other way around.