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I wouldn't call that an inconsistency. I'd call that evoking emotion through selected use of colour. It's very common, more so than you'd think. Most films and modern games do this.

Yeah, Yug's hair is like an entity on it's own. And it is totally true that Yahtzee haaaaattttees human contact more than he hates the AGS community. In my honest opinion, Melbourne would seem like a more likely place for this kind of thing, given that they have studios staying open instead of closing, but hopefully this might re-invigorate the Brisbane gaming scene.

Glad to see more Aussies on here anyway, we are always in short supply.

As far as I understood for the original 'Panel Rating' discussion, it was open to change after the first couple of years to hopefully implement a 'decent' system.

I think you'll find nowadays gamers are a lot more diverse. It amazes me sometimes to walk into a shop and see a hot girl buying Modern Warfare 2 with a chick friend, no guy in sight.

Timosity, it's on Brunswick St, not 100% sure on the exact location though.

A pub I worked at used to have a wii, it was quite normal for people to have a pint and play wii sports bowling. As for other games? Well, who knows. Although I do know they are primarily there to make money and they do that from drinks.

And yes! From what I can tell, Yathzee always dresses like that and runs around shouting "I am Trilby! Gentleman thief! La la la la la!"

One thing I don't like from a user interface standpoint is the find games selection. Tabular list is pretty unhelpful in both wording and function. Perhaps 'categories' would be better, and allow people to list 'all' or by certain selectable criteria.

In addition, having the panel rating cup and not both panel and user cups on the list is a bit pretentious in my opinion. The user rating should not be disregarded at all, as this is many peoples opinions over just one.

One more thing, would it be possible to include a way of 'people who downloaded this also downloaded these...' much like on amazon or something similar. Another possiblility would be 'if you enjoyed this, you may also enjoy...' This would be a cool little feature if it were implemented.

But I love the design. Very swish.

So in Brisbane, Australia's first 'video-game' bar is opening next month. The Mana Bar is the creation of Guy “Yug” Blomberg and Ben “Yahtzee” Croshaw, former big-shot AGS creator, along with friends Pras Moorthy and Shay Leighton.


Look at him there in his fancy hat.





In addition to letting you play games while you drink, the venue will also cater for special events including game launch parties, games trivia nights hosted by Yahtzee, developer sessions and Q&As, as well as multiplayer gaming tournaments.

I will certainly be heading there once it opens, and you should check it out if you are ever in Brisbane. I've met Guy Blomberg before and he's a really down to earth and very cool guy. Be amazed by his card tricks!

Photos stolen from the Mana Bar facebook fan page http://www.facebook.com/TheManaBar and text mostly borrowed from this article http://www.kotaku.com.au/2010/01/australias-first-video-game-bar-opening-next-month/

Wow, the rope test is really really impressive. I saw the rope 'demo' in the other thread, but combined with AA, it's superb.

Just a quick question, would it be possible to use the rope in the example to be affected by 'systems' such as wind. It would be cool to have it simulate power lines in a room without having to worry about animating something so tedious. (I know it's a bit off topic, but hey!)

Yes, Harg and Layabout, let's fill this thread with specific titles whose rating we don't agree with.

Then let's invent a system so perfect that among the thousand-something games in the database, there wouldn't be even one or two ratings that any single one of the thousands of members wouldn't disagree on.

I'm actually pointing out how inconsistent the rating system seems to be due to the subjective nature of such a system. I personally loved shifters box. I think it deserves a 4 cup rating, which is consistent with the guidelines you posted. I loved Red Flagg, but it has a major flaw in the gameplay department and would fit more in the 2 cup rating as per the guidelines. Yes SpacePirateCaine by far exceeded the expectation of those who had played the original Red Flagg, but it felt more like an interactive cut-scene than a game.

Sure I do single out Back Door Man as a game that has been given an incorrect rating, but I challenge people to play it going through the Panel's guidelines and see how many crosses you can put against it.

The Panel system was put into place to moderate the games against being artificially jiggered with, and I totally agree with the sentiment behind the whole system. To me it seems there is too much subjectivity to the ratings. I'd like to think if one day I make a game of substance that I might get an objective panel rating... although with all the fuss I'm causing right now I'm doomed to be subjected to a 1 cup rating for everything I ever create.

I also agree with what Gilbert Cheung says. Always. It would bring it more in line with the proposed yellow cup system, whilst also being able to clearly see inconsistencies, which could then be flagged as aforementioned.

User ratings should also be bought in line with the panel rating, as this would provide a more accurate picture of what the general public thought of the game. Same guidelines, same overall 'cup' system. This way if the user rating was seen to differentiate too much from the panel rating, the panel could be flagged to check if the user rating was subjected to jiggery, or if the original panel rating was fair and objective.

Quick question regarding perspective - should each ROOM have it's own vanishing point?  Or should the world as a whole have one vanishing point, or could it be anything inbetween.  Eg, if you had a 2 screen scrolling background, the 2 screen background would have 1 vanishing point.

How important is this to the overall feel of a game?

In a word, yes, every room should have at least one vanishing point. Ideally, it would be at the centre point of the camera, although it is ok to have the vanishing point to the left, right, up, down. Depends on the mood. Realistically, you should have this on eye level, or just above, since your characters are unable to shift perspective due to their 2-Dimensionality. But 2 point perspective (ideal for outdoor scenes) will have 2 vanishing points, 3 point will have 3 (ideal for creating a sense of scale with tall buildings, etc, commonly seen in comics, not so much in adventure games. YOu can have more points (like what the other Ryan is showing), but I wouldn't recommend it until you know the rules of perspective backwards.

I think we should remember that the 5 cup rating has to span a very broad spectrum.

AGS has created games which are barely playable and masterpieces of fiction.

In my eyes 3 cups can only be considered 'good for an amateur game' and things dont really start to be 'good' until the 4 and 5 cup mark.

I have only released one game and only been here around 5-6 months so my experience of AGS games is limited but if the scale is linear and the benchmark is trilbys notes (which got 5 cups) and shifters box (which got 4) then i would rate the vast majority of games I play as 2 cups or even lower. And that includes my own.

The resolution of the cup rating simply isnt high enough to be as useful as you guys seem to want it to be.

You should use the cup rating more like a basic technical benchmark to answer a few simple questions.

- Is this game fun
- Is this game buggy
- Does this game make basic logical sense.

beyond that I fail to see what you want from the rating system.

I am responsible for a 1 cup game. It was playable, but very short, very easy and by god was it ugly. I did it as a test and a challenge to create the first 'game' with the new windows roomedit. I don't even think it should deserve even a 1 cup rating. It was horrible. Truly awful. Yet we get a 2 cup rated game with higher production values, in engrossing story with multiple endings (here I refer to Back Door Man). That doesn't make a lot of sense does it.

Neither does giving a game like Ben There, Dan That!, a highly enjoyable game with a very high user rating 3 cups with comments along the lines of 'lots of rooms, not much to do', and giving a game like shifters box, which has the same thing (lots of rooms, usually only 1 puzzle per room) 4 cups. Or Limey Lizard, which has about 20 useless rooms in a maze puzzle, which may lead to a walking dead if you aren't careful... no, scrap that, it's easy to come across just from exploring. (also 4 cups) Another game by the same author isn't even complete and gets 3 cups.

There seems to be a lack of consistency with the panel rating. This is what is troubling me.

You say 3 cups can only be considered 'good for an amateur game'... well what else would it be? Despite there being a handful of commercial AGS games, 99% of content created with AGS are amateur games. A clearer and more consistent panel is needed.

*edit*

And oh yay, an example of a game that doesn't really have any game play. 3 cups http://www.adventuregamestudio.co.uk/games.php?action=detail&id=1266 Yes the game has consistent graphics, animation, etc (all of which are lovely), but for anyone who has never experienced Scid and the original Red Flagg, they would be disappointed and wonder why this game was rated 3 cups, when other games, which have a far greater degree of story and game play get 2 cups and a similar consistency of graphics.

Which isn't true, the investigation parts are fun. It's only brain-bending puzzles it is missing, which do not necessarily need to be in an adventure game. The original reviewer was probably a puzzle fanatic

I still don't really understand the theory behind the five cup system. Did anyone ever think what two cups out of five would look attractive to the average browser? I also get confused as people have been saying contradictory things.

CJ has said "The 2-cup rating is by far the most common, and 2/5 is not a "bad" rating as it would be on some review sites."

Progzmax said " where 2 appears more clearly as 'below average' "
and on other occasions, "while 2 is a 'nice try' category that is meant to encourage people to do better.  As mentioned before, 3 is essentially the standard score which is fine since most people will produce a few average but interesting games before they reach something better."

On the 'what is this' page "2 Cups   A reasonable game, worth a try"

Andail "I think everyone needs to remember, before you jump on the complaint bandwagon, that the descripition for 2 cups is that the game is reasonable and worth a try."

So guys... what is it? Average usually means the medium. The middle of the road... Even progzmax, the supposed head of the ags panel, seems to be confused about the meaning of the 2 cup score.

A game that offers multiple endings, has improved graphics over the authors previous 4 starred titles, and an interesting plot gets a two cup rating. Did the reviewer only play it once? This game if you care: http://www.adventuregamestudio.co.uk/games.php?action=detail&id=1194
This is one of those situations where the panel score is at odds with the user rating.

There seem to be a lot of inconsistencies with the scoring system that make it an unreliable way of judging whether one would enjoy a game.

To make things even worse, you have decided to publish the means in which you rate games. People will still complain, saying 'ohh but I did all of that'.

BTW that bar chart makes the community look terrible. Everyones making shit games, and only a few make games worth playing. That is what it looks like to an outsider seeing all the two cup games. NO ONE sees two cups as being in any way GOOD. It is a BAD score, to players, to creator, to anyone except the review panel that isn't Progz. Who also seems to see it as a bad score.

It is actually extremely broken that commercial games should not be considered for nomination due to the way the nomination/game pages are set up. The same way it is broken that a demo from 2001 for a never to be released game should be considered for an award.

I would have nominated Blackwell Convergence for every award due to the time effort and love put into that game. But alas, I cannot.

This needs to be fixed and people should be able to re-nominate if they wish.

Hello,

I'm hyper critical and play very few AGS games.

I really enjoyed your game. It was a really well constructed story. It had a great sense of immersion and pace. The music was well suited to the genre. Loved all the special effects, especially the puddle. That was astounding.

The game was a little too dark for me to see properly at times, but perhaps that was caused by my monitor/me not playing in the dead of night as I should have been.

Puzzles felt a little tacked on (especially the coat hanger) and being there for the sake of being there. I would have like to see a bit more investigation and choice in dialog.

One of the best AGS games released this year.

Avoid using fill to be honest. Unless you are using straight pixels (no anti-aliasing), where it is okay, but there are techniques to make even pixelled backgrounds more interesting. It'll just come out crap. What you want is to choose a nice big brush and paint the details on a multiply layer. It makes a huge difference. Try it. You would need to start again from scratch, but it will be for the better, and much quicker once you get used to it. Just make sure to 'lock' the lineart layer, so you don't accidently paint on it.

I'm not sure if the database even existed in ezboard days.

Hang on... can we really nominate AGS Awards Ceremony 2008 for an award?!

And, massive typo 'Which are the gategories?'

20:00 is 5am here. Too early for an award ceremony!!!

*edit* One more thing, the Vestibule demo was originally released in 2001 or thereabouts. I'm not really sure it should be in that list. I know for sure it was ezboard days. We can't have Yahtzee winning any more awards, seriously.

It looks like you put in a lot of effort in making these. A bit of advice.

No filters. NO no no bad.

Yes, multiply layers are your friend. So are other adjustment layers. Darken layers are ok for shadows, but give em a bluey-grey tinge.

No no no to hatching or shading in your pencil drawing. Shading can be added to the colour layers.

The further away things away are, the more desaturated they become. They also get blue. Atmospherics and crap.

Your lineart is too prominant. either draw over it in with vector lines, or change it's opacity.

Invest in a drawing tablet. It'll be the best $150 you ever spend.

Draw from real life. If you need to draw a tree with branches and stuff, go find a cool looking tree and copy it.

OS? Anitivirus? Windowed or full screen?

I had nothing to do with the ratings of any of my games, Ryan, and of course the rating system (like all subjective ratings systems) is flawed.  You believe you are right in that a game doesn't deserve 4 cups because that's what you believe.  Whoever rated it believed differently, and that really is that.

Aye, I agree. I was pointing out how subjective the rating system is. In addition, I never explicitly stated that I thought you would rate your own game. I know this would never happen.

User rating and panel rating must be seen as equal (or even user rating as higher), I don't think this is the case currently. I know user rating can be jimmied with, which is why we have the panel rating in the first place. Limey Lizard, for example, has a user rating that is pretty much on par with the panel rating. This means it was probably rated correctly. Some people may not have liked it for whatever reason, but the majority did. But if there were the case where a game was rated 2 by the panel and got a user rating of 75%, then the panel rating should at least be looked at, to ensure the ratings are 'correct' (bad word to use with such a subjective matter, but oh well...)