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Messages - Layabout

#241
AGS Games in Production / Re: Puzzle Bots
Sat 18/07/2009 15:42:51
Its nice to see a trailer after all this time.

You can have a Woooooooooo from me.
#242
Quote from: Oliwerko on Sat 18/07/2009 12:51:31
I was going to write pretty much the same as Radiant already did.

I think that people nowadays want to jump into the action of the game super-fast, have ultra-mega gfx effects and so on. Gaming nowadays seems to me a bit....fast-paced? Look at hardcore simulators, they are much more rare than they used to be not a long time ago. People don't have time to study manuals, they want good-looking simplicity. Total simplicity, no guessing what to do. Gilbert's quote nicely says this, they want just get good at doing whatever they are told to.

In adventrues, it's about the story. Gamers nowadays don't really want good stories, they want anything but the story, be it graphic effects, movie-like cutscenes that make more than half of the game, anything.

Playing an adventure game is like reading a book, it's a little bit more interactive book than a printed one. Now how many people nowadays read books?

That is such a rash generalisation. I totally disagree with it. While there are some gamers who couldn't care less about story, there are many who cherish the story. Games like Fallout 3, Bioshock et al are highly praised by both critics and gamers for providing a great story experience. Different types of games have different storytelling techniques.

Everything we humans do is about stories. When I ask you how your week was, I am asking you to tell me a story. When someone plays the sims, they want a visual story where they can use the imaginarium part of their brain to fill in the blanks. Every game we play tells a story, either through the game story, or through the events that occur and the imagination or playing technique of the player. We want to be told a story every time we talk to another person, online and offline. We want to be told a story every time we play a game, whether it be the designers story, or the story we experinece through playing the game.

While the audience for adventure games may not be as big or the same audience as say an FPS, there is still people who buy adventure games (SoMI is number 1 on steam, ToMI was number 1 last week). Why yes, Monkey Island is a very well known name, but they are also done very right. One of the highest anticipated games on PS3, Heavy Rain is an adventure game. Yes it does involve action, but the core elements are exploration, clue-gathering and puzzle solving. There are also a shitload of adventure games on the DS.

Rant time.

The reason games are often (more often than not) left with a poor quality story is due to the attitude of the games industry (of which some of your comments don't help) that gamers don't care that much about the story, they are more interested in shooting things and fast paced action. Most stories in games are tacked on 6 months before the release of a game. Why sure, a core idea about what the game is about and the characters and enemies is drafted in the initial design, but scriptwriters are not involved in this process. This basically means the writer has to write the game's story around the elements designed and created for the game. Writing a story around pre-defined action and characters is a very difficult task. Thus most game stories are and feel tacked on. If the industry were to involve writers from the initial pre-production phase of the games development, stories would be infinitly better and more integrated into the whole package. Most adventure games rely on the story, which is written in the pre-production phase, the game is designed around the story, thus you have a better integrated story. It may sound nuts to do it this way, since stories are there to give direction, but it's how it is. You wouldn't film a movie without a script would you. (shut up m0ds.) :p
#243
If you are going to europe, you might as well stay for a couple of weeks, 1 week of mittens, 1 week of touristy stuff. Tis what I and many other would do most likely.

And did I forget to mention...

#244
Screw the houses. They are for simpletons. What we need is a Castle!

http://www.tuscanynow.com/Rentals/Villas/Castello_di_Magrano_PriceID_4978.aspx
#245
Quote from: MillsJROSS on Thu 16/07/2009 22:16:52
The reason I'm kind of against Italy is that there's a lot of pull to do touristy things. I like touristy things, and I think part of Mittens is absorbing a little bit of another culture. However, I like doing touristy things when my goal is to be a tourist. I don't want to be a tourist often at Mittens, I'm coming to hang out with people and have a few laughs, not to educate myself or take in the sites. Not that Italy prevents me from hanging out with people, but I get the feeling people are looking at going to Mittens from a tourist perspective, when in reality we'll probably only do touristy things 25-30% of the time.

However, I don't honestly care one way or the other between the two locations, because they're just background to the actual event. I'm going to Mittens either way. The only thing that should really matter is "how much will it cost us" and "how many people can we house". If it's cheaper in Italy and we can house more people, by all means, let's do it. And visa versa. So why not search for housing and let the numbers make our decision for us?

-MillsJROSS

I kind of Agree with this. While there are some places that are a must visit in Italy, I think most of this could be done before/after mittens if people so please. It is a backdrop, but hey, Italy is a stunning backdrop. 35-40 degree heat, that crisp mediterreanean air, the smell of fresh pasta in the distance. mmm hummm.

Any place we will get will probably be about 2 hours from Rome, so it would most likely end up with Rome being a place to visit before or after the event.
#246
Quote from: Ascovel on Thu 16/07/2009 06:17:28
I still think Braid is pretty much an adventure game disguised as a platform game. If the plot is scarce in it, it may be described as an adventure game with not much of a plot, but the core game mechanics are the same (or almost the same).

Not really. Braid is a platform game with puzzle elements.

Yes both sort of use Puzzles to drive the game and narrative forward, but that does not make Braid an adventure game. Games with puzzles do not make that game an adventure game.

Just because it has a more fleshed out story than most platform games (albiet still one that kinda feels tacked on), it is still a platform game. Platform games are allowed to have a storyline, not just adventure games.

The core selling mechanic is to be able to run and jump. The time travel elements are just an extension on this, and as it is, it would only really work in a platform game format since an adventure game doing the same thing would be too slow and an 1st/3rd person view would be far too difficult to perform the required actions.

It's pointless saying 'oh but it does this, so it must be an adventure game' when the core gameplay relies on mechanics from platform games.

Also, Ghost, if you took the puzzles from a traditional adventure game, you would be left with a badly paced story and not a fun game. The Story is the reward for solving puzzles. And this is why we play games. Rewards. It is why the added rewards that come with console achievements are so popular. People like being told they are great. People like that feeling of achievement.
#247
Quote from: KhrisMUC on Thu 16/07/2009 07:50:48
Run Bootcamp, install XP, then use a decent program like ProMotion ;)
Why XP. Cool kids use Windows 7.

Idiots use Macs.

Isn't the Gimp on mac?

Yes it seems to be....
http://www.gimp.org/

It's a decent Photoshop alternative. I'm not sure if it has animation support, but I do know it's great for backgrounds. And it can pixel.

Hah, it seems it does have animation support. With onion skinning. My how things have changed and got awesome. I'll have to check it out myself.
#248
Oooh nasty. Sounds like a case of not updating Windows (XP isn't it), not using a current broswer and having shitty AV software.

Post-XP systems have a thing called the Security Centre which monitors whether you are using a working firewall, up to date antivir, etc. It is primarily there for stupid people who use computers really.

Has someone else been using this computer? Surely you would know not to download things from popups or programs that want to install themselves, but other people using the computer might. If so, upgrade to Vista or 7 and Turn UAC to max power for their account. Give yourself the admin account. It's called smart computer usage. Idiots are the reason UAC exists, so utilise it. If you are still using XP, then you should get Windows 7 as it is released. It is a faster and more stable user experience. And it does not look like Fisher-fucking-price designed the interface.

And stay away from myspace while you are at it. It's full of Emo's.
#249
I've got no reason against Bicolotti hosting a Mittens. He seems interested in doing it and is an upstanding member of the AGS community.
#250
I wouldn't consider Braid to be a casual game at all really. It has bloody difficult puzzles, an obscure, layered, pretentious story and a painterly art style.

That's not saying I don't like the game, I like it very much (well, except the story, it's being pretentious for pretentious sake IMO, although the obvious story is a great twist on the traditional save the princess shit).

And from what I heard rather successful. Sales of over $4Mil if my sources are correct.
#251
I would say with the current climate of downloadable games, adventure games are actually making a resurgence. Whilst they not be the biggest selling games, they are doing reasonable well on casual platforms like xbla and steam, and afaik, the Wadjet games are doing very well. Big name brands like Monkey Island and Sam and Max have been a godsend for Telltale and have sold well enough to sustain a mid sized studio. People do not expect state of the art 3d graphics for their quick fix games. Games they can play for as long or as short as the player pleases.

That says, for these experiences, you don't want to be massively stuck for any period of time, so puzzles have been simplified somewhat. Now you no longer need to spend hours figuring out a puzzle. The answer is slightly puzzling, but not terribly difficult.

These games can do well if you follow this route. If you try to replicate the taxing puzzles and 5 hour long stories of the sierra gen, your game will not sell well, as this is not what the core market desires from these games.
#252
Quote from: Becky on Mon 13/07/2009 11:30:55
I like how people who weren't at Mittens are saying that the discussions at Mittens excluded people!  How would they know? They weren't there?

Cause I can read this thread.

Maybe I'm just jealous since whenever I say "I'll host it in Australia" everyone goes... "What are you serious. I ain't flying all the way out there, screw you!"

Where is the sarcasmotron?
#253
Quote from: AGA on Sun 12/07/2009 23:37:03
Plenty of us agreed on Holland at the time. Only Disco seems to have come up with this Italy idea, it seems.

Personally I don't mind either way.

I'm aware that both Grundislav and Disco suggested the Italy idea. But from the tone of this thread from members who were at Mittens, it seems the Holland idea is just something that happened.


I've spoken to a few people, who have either said that 'it looks like it might be Holland' or 'I think it will be Holland'. No one has actually said, 'Yep, we ALL decided mittens 2010 will be Holland and the host is...'

Just on the fact that most of the mitteneers didn't seem to be involved in the deciding discussion (from the posts in this very thread) and that there were many regulars missing this year due to the location kind of puts this up for discussion and perhaps a vote.
#254
Hi there, me again.

Who was actually at the group meeting at mittens that decided on the next location? It seems from the current posters that the only one who mentioned being party to any kind of discussion about it was miez, who offered to host it if it were held in holland.

While my opinion probably counts for less since I will have the farthest distance to travel, it seems the general consensus is people would prefer Italy since it's on many people's travel list. Like mine :p
#255
Quote from: Nacho on Sun 12/07/2009 12:40:07
About the "We shouldn' t go to the Nederland because some members can go mad with the weed" argument... Sorry, for me it' s  a bit revealer of the personality of the member who mentioned it ^_^ I would never be tempted about Amsterdam' s savage appeals... If you are, why should the rest of the people pay for your vicious mentality???  ;)

That was me who said it! It was a joke by the way. You didn't have a certain someone being annoying and high in your car on the way to Mittens France!  :P I personally would prefer Italy over Holland, but I'd still enjoy the Netherlands.
#256
Riding a vespa through cobblestone villages...

or...

Smelling tulips while looking at windmills.

Hmm, hard

But the vespa wins for me.
#257
Quote from: ProgZmax on Sat 11/07/2009 17:06:49
I've never been bothered by 'fair' deaths in games.  Take Quest for Glory as an example: you find a goblin, you fight the goblin.  You have three possible outcomes:

1.  You kill the goblin.

2.  You are killed by the goblin.

3.  You run away like a pansy.

Now, you can't make friends with the goblin, but aside from that you're given some good options.  Death depends on your own character skills (weapon/magic levels) and personal skills (grasp of the controls) and while you might be angry at dying you can't say the game didn't give you a chance.

I list this in stark contrast to some of Sierra's other games, most notably the earlier King's Quest games.  You can be walking along in the first game and die for a myriad reasons, many times without any kind of warning.  This is frustrating.  This is bad design.  I can't fathom why anyone apart from the most masochistic enjoyed the early King's Quest games, but enough people did that they made many more.

Death in games should either come from wanton negligence on the part of the player (wandering into a busy intersection or a puddle of bubbling green goo) or as a consequence of a fight.  It is possible that a player can be unaware that doing a certain thing is, in fact, dangerous, either because they've never encountered a situation like it or because your game is not presenting a real-world situation.  In either case, not explaining the situation in enough detail to understand the consequences is just shoddy design and is more likely to frustrate someone than to amuse them, especially if the death is tied to an obscure puzzle and they have to trial-and-error their way through multiple deaths to find a solution.  Tying death to a puzzle is something that should be done with careful planning.  Is it a timed sequence?  If so, do they have a reasonable enough time to figure out the solution on the first try if they are clever, or will they have to know exactly what to do to have enough time to do it?  If it's based on a complicated mechanical puzzle, is it designed logically enough that most people can figure it out without guessing?  These are important things to consider when factoring in death as a puzzle outcome.



On the note of Kings Quest, it was probably lack of competition on PC that allowed games with bad game design to flourish. In all honesty, playing KQ5 makes you wonder how the game didn't kill the genre, let alone the series. I don't understand why I enjoyed playing that game as a kid. There are 41 ways to die in the game, some obvious, most without warning. This is not including the walking deads that are rather abundant in the game.

This video demonstrates the horror.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-vOn5D0XE9U
#258
I am in agreeance with Becky and Disco about renting a hotel floor. A twin room would be somewhere in the range of eur80+ per night. For a room with a TV and 2 single beds. All food would have to be bought at restaurants/cafes, all communal gatherings would have to take place in bars (which not all mitteneers would enjoy) or a common area shared with other guests. This is an unacceptable option in comparison to the freedom of having a house, chateau or a castle.

As for a cruise ship, it sounds like a bit of fun, but what about those who suffer from seasickness or want to have a holiday where they get to explore cities and towns. If there were going to be a cruise, I wouldn't think it would work as a place to be for the entire duration of Mittens.

As for the location of next years Mittens, which I'd like to attend if I have the funds, I would much prefer a place like Italy over Holland. Personally I feel that some mitteneers would be inclined to explore the seedier side of Amsterdam or whatever, leading to a group that is constantly split. From what I've heard, it seems it wasn't a universal decision to hold mittens in holland. I believe fruitree has been trying to plan a Dutch style mittens event with little success.

Realistically as well, alot of the usual Mittens crew were unable to attend this years event, so it seems somewhat unfair on them not being able to have a vote in where the event is held in 2010.

I would prefer it if someone made a list on suitable location choices for mittens and hold a vote.

My 2p. :p
#259
Critics' Lounge / Re: Character design!
Sat 11/07/2009 13:13:41
Because you used Alexander's face, the amount of colour tones of his clothes and the light direction are wrong. Think about where the light is coming from and either remove some tones from his face or add some to his clothes.His right leg looks a bit gimpy too.
#260
Wha!? You are paying for Voice Actors. You must really be either really stupid or making something UBER-professional. Very few ags games have been made with professional Voice Artists.

Try using friends and family. They may not be perfect, but it is up to you to direct them, etc.

Unless of coarse you are making a big budget (for an indie) commercial product, then by all means hire the pros.
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