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Man, I'm worried. 3300 more votes and Gabriel Knight will be closing on Grim Fandango...

But seriously. Grim is second! It's only second to Zelda which has 800 more for this round.

Man, do I love Vel!!! :D :D :D :D

Check out the Double Fine Action News on how to vote for Grim Fandango! Go on, do this, for ME!

Except Vel, because I know what HE'LL bloody vote for...

Go! Now!

CJ, I have to tell you something about the future!

This sounds kinda crazy but the modem dial up noise fits ANY TUNE PERFECTLY. Try it. Somebody should do a techno freaking remix of it.

Love them...Hee hee I bet this thread has confused you, huh? It's about half-half for both of them.

I vote for 1.5. Number 2, except with a monocle. But the monocle for number 1 looks like a bulging eye.

Not only writing discrimination into the constitution, but they're writing Christianity into a constitution that claims to promote freedom of religion.

Shouldn't that be "OSC"?

I know. What I mean is that the main argument people use against gay marriage is that it's a christian thing, and that's why there's so much by way of religious argument.

Of course I believe that religion shouldn't even be an issue in this, but quite frankly it's the only issue. Without religion blasting people with anti-gay propaganda, the minority of true homophobic people would be practically void an of course, gay people would be allowed marry.

If athiests and devil worshippers and people who aren't in love are allowed marry by law, and if criminals are allowed marry, and people are allowed marry for money or fame, or for publicity stunts... if none of that is against the law, then to refuse to allow a gay couple to marry, whether or not you're christian, is purely discriminitive.

Marriage is also a religious issue because it's a religious concept.

And nowhere in the bible does it say that a Gay Couple cannot get married.

It does, however, state that they should be killed for their sin.

All sin is sin, no matter how big or small.

We are all born sinners.

Therefore, we should all be killed at birth.

Because if Gays should be killed for their sin, then so should we.

Because a sin is a sin.

And if you're going to disobey the bible by not allowing Gay Marriages, which it does NOT ban, you're also disobeying the bible because it says Gay People should be 'put to death' for the act of being gay, which clearly, people are not obeying.

You could say that God did not intend for Gay People to live longer enough to marry so he didn't have to make that rule about marriage. It goes without saying.

But then, maybe so does allowing Gay People driving licenses, food, water, housing... anything. Maybe we shouldn't be doing that. He never mentioned that we should or should not give them food or water either.

Looks like people are cherry-picking from the bible, and when there's no cherry to pick, they break off part of the branch.

God never forbade a gay marriage.

To assume things on behalf of god is a sin.

So by not killing gay people, we are sinning. By not letting them marry we are also sinning, because we're forbading it on behalf of god.

I see a flaw. Or at least, I did, before my head exploded.

I just had a fantasic conversation with a born again fundy christian.

First I stated my theory that since the bible never condemns gay MARRIAGES, Christians should not 'make their own decisions on behalf on god' and therefore Gay Marriages should be allowed. Also, that Gay Marriage should be allowed on the basis that although being gay is 'wrong', being married would at least conform to half of Gods requirements for a married couple...

He said it was illogical to say that being gay is wrong, and then allow them to marry.

I said that making a world in a couple of days is illogical by our logic, and that God doesn't have to work on the basis of logic. God works in Mysterious Ways. I've always wanted to throw that line back in the face of a christian who's trying to explain away crap from the bible with "God works in mysterious ways" and today I totally did it. I feel great. And it pissed him off just as much as it has pissed me off in the past.

He gave an example, "If I tell my daughter not to go outside, and she goes outside wearing her shoes, that does not make it better that she disobeyed me although she was safer while wearing her shoes."

I retaliated by saying, "If you said she was not allowed outside, and you told everybody else they were only allowed outside while wearing their shoes, and she went outside without wearing her shoes, she will have broken two of your orders. If she wears her shoes, she will have only broken one."

He said, "wrong is wrong." He countered by quoting a part from the bible that said "If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death. Their bloodguiltness is upon them" and saying he thought that made it clear he didn't want gay marriages.

I said that that quote clearly stated that gay people should be killed for the act of having gay sex.

He agreed that it was a good point; maybe they should.

I reminded him of the part of the bible where Jesus lets the sinful prostitute wash his feet, and he preaches that we should eat with sinners and forgive them because we are all born sinners according to the bible.

He said that doesn't mean you should make provisions for their sins.

And I said that since being wrong is wrong, and being sinful is being sinful, and Gay People should be put to death for their sin, and yet if wrong = wrong and sinful = sinful, and we're all sinful and sinful = wrong... then we should all be put to death, and logically then, having gay sex is the equivelent of being born, according to the bible...

He logged off.

Yufster 1, Idiot 0!!!


P.S. I don't believe that religion should have any ruling in the government of a country that claims to have religious freedom either. I am furious that Prez. Bush wants to write discrimination into the constitution, and furthermore, I am arguing mostly about the religious aspect of gay marriages because the main obstacle for them is the christian religion.

Yes, the question was this: Are me and Mark that sexy that people have fantasies about us?

And the answer is Yes. Yes, we are.

Please read this, then.

(To all of the below: I'm trying to speak from a Christian viewpoint. I believe that Gay People have every right, I believe that there is nothing wrong or condemnable about their conduct, I believe it's perfectly natural and I do not believe in god. However, I tried to understand the christian viewpoint for this argument.)

Okay well, just a thought... The Bible does not specifically say that marriage between two men or two women is wrong. According to the bible we are all born sinners and all of us do things knowing that it goes against the bible, whether it's profanity or whatever. So if being gay is a sin, then gay people are sinners, and so are we all. They're no more or less a sinner, especially if they believe what they do is right.

If the bible does not ban the marriage... fine, so it says that being gay is wrong, but.. here is my theory for christians... you're supposed to get married to the one you love, right? Well, if gay people are allowed to marry... so they got the first part wrong in that they're gay, but at least they're getting the second part right in that they carry out their relationship under the bond of marriage.

I don't think that, according to christian faith, we are allowed to judge others and, if god does not like the marriage then I'm sure he'll find some way of letting us know, or he'll spank them all when they go to heaven.

The bible says a lot of things are wrong that we do every day. However, it has not specifically banned a gay marriage, and I don't believe Bush has the authority or the right to do such a thing as write that in to the American Constitution. Since the bible does not BAN gay marriage SPECIFICALLY, perhaps it is best to allow them to go forward, and let God himself decide whether they are valid or not. If Christians choose to believe they are not valid, then that is their choice. But we have not got the right to disallow something like that unless god too, has disallowed it.

Does that seem that fair? Do you understand what I meant or am I being too muddled?


EDIT: I mean, two wrongs don't make a right. If it's wrong for them to be gay, and it's also wrong for them to have a relationship out of the bonds of marriage... At least if they have a relationship within the sacred marriage bond, it's half right. You see?

Why are me and Mark the object of so many admiration and fan stories?

Are we both that sexy?

I just noticed that Peter Thomas appears to be a particularly fundamental christian and yet still is unlike the stereotype and is quite gentle about the way he puts his point across, which is more than I can say for a lot of pro-gay people on this thread...

On the other hand I completely disagree with him and think Gay Marriage should totally be allowed.

EDIT: Now I can tell all my friends that I know a guy who knows another guy who knows a girl who has a sister that is married to a  guy that is related to Ian Paisley!!!

As a matter of interest, does it specifically say in the bible at any point that A Marriage between two people of the same sex is not allowed? I am talking about Marriage. Not whether it is right; specifically marriage. Does it say that? Anybody know?

Last time I was offended at all the bad language you used, but this time you've gone too far! How could anyone debate the bible! It's the word of God! It is the truth and the devine light! Everything that's holy and pure is within the bible, so it must be truth.

I'm shocked and dismayed. No wonder I restrict my kids from using the internet, especially when I see filth like this. I try to give my children a good Christian upbringing and I don't expect them to question the word of God. God would be angry if anyone questioned it. And God is pure and holy, so why would anyone want to question him anyway. It's better than following SATAN!

In other news: I ultra, ultra respect Peter Thomas, even though his views go against every single one of mine, when it comes to Gay Rights. He's seriously the only christian with such views, that I have ever respected. He seems to be willing to examine his own beliefs and he's not rude or anything. I just thought I'd mention it because, a lot of christians in his shoes would be screaming the details of how we're going to burn in hell.

What I don't get is that, if most people here are pro-gay marriage, and most people I know (even in catholic Ireland!) are pro-gay marriage... and most of the americans I know are pro gay-marriage... Why in good god did the vote a couple of years ago on Gay Marriages get a 66% result for the anti-gay side?

Yes, Lucid dreams are totally awesome. I used to be really awesome at them. Then, one day, I got so good at controlling my dreams that I told myself I was going to GET UP WHILE I WAS STILL ASLEEP. I started by trying to lift my arm. It was really odd, because I kept lifting it in the dream and telling myself, "no, not good enough, you have to lift it in real life". It was like some sort of frikkin' dream magic. And then finally I managed to do it, and my arm felt so unbelievably heavy... and I let go, and the next moment I woke up because my fist had fallen on my face.

After that,  my lucid dreams just went on a downhill spiral.

Should women work and be independent, when it so clearly goes against the grain of the bible? Hmm? There is a lot of stuff the bible says that Christians 'overlook' because it is convenient. What about that one bible story, where the man goes to rape another man, and the owner of the house gives them his daughter and slave-woman in place of this man he barely knows. Nice story, that one. Oh, then he kills them for being impure.

If you're going to insist that being gay is against the bible, and that's the reason you would not allow marriages, perhaps you'd better disallow a lot of the stuff that happens in the modern world.

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One of the arguments against Gay Marriage is that, once you let gay people marry, next it'll be pilligamy (sp) and suchlike, and society will break down. Sounds stupid to me, I'd like to know what you all think.

Also, a gem of stupidity from my teacher: "I mean, once they start letting gay people marry, what next? Bisexuals?"

I was so confused by that sentence I actually stared at him for like 30 seconds without blinking, trying to figure out if he was joking or not.

Today, I had a heated debate... no, no... I shouted at my Guidance Counsellor for his idiotic views on gay rights, which went something like this:

1) First they hand out gay marriage rights, then they hand out rights to own machine guns in the home... (hmm, where have I heard this one before..?)
2) They shouldn't be allowed adopt children because they'll get bullied for having gay parents. By the same logic, women should not be allowed wear skirts because they are just so asking to be raped. Blame the victim, I say! In fact, let's stop black people having children, because they'll only have to endure racist comments and such from racist morons!!! Let's stop athiests and english people from having children in Ireland. They'll only have to endure the torture of being called "Devil Worshipper!" and "English Bastard!" by mindless primary school children!

Huh.

He also said that the child of a gay couple would grow up to be gay, like the child of a violent parent would grow up violent. This was what caused me to get exasperated, because my father was extremely violent and abusive, and yet neither me nor my sisters have ever touched a hair off anybody elses head or been anything but polite and pleasant to other people. It showed how narrow minded he was. He argued that a child needs a good father and a good mother figure to grow up properly, and I pointed out not only that all of us grew up fine, but that plenty of single parents survive to raise wonderful children. And besides that, you're either gay or you're not. There's no, "Ah, well I think I'll try gayness today!". And on top of all that, so what? If people choose to be gay, fair play to them I say! If they're worried about a falling birthrate in America, perhaps they should make third level education more accessible, so people stop having small families soley because they cannot afford to send their children to Uni.

EDIT: The irony of me saying I got 'really, really fucking angry' and then claiming that I did not grow up to be an angry person, was too much. I edited it. I now sound calmer. Cooler. I'm cool. Smoooooth.