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Steel Drummer, please answer my question: do you believe everything in the old testament is fact?

[Catholics are Christians.]

No, you're the one not doing the research. Just because there are a few examples in the bible of Christians themselves being stoned, does not mean all Christians were as good and pious and them. Read examples of how christians burned innocent people at the stake for being "witches" or believing things which have since been proven true such as that the earth is round.

Please read the link I provided.


It also shows, Christian or not, that people were arguable less "nice" back then, to put it in simple terms for you. Which nullifies your previous argument that god doesn't bother showing his existence nowadays  because people nowadays are more corrupt. I'd also like to know whether you support incest, as there are several parts in the bible where incest is condoned and I believe even encouraged by god.

I think you are speaking in place of god and I think that's an extremely sinful thing for you do be doing.

My suggestion to you, since you are such a "good christian" in your own eyes is this: read the bible. It always amazes me how many Atheists read the bible in comparison to "christians". You preach this book and live by it, and you haven't even bothered reading it. And there's no real point in denying that you haven't read it, because it's clearly evident by the way you're defending aspects of it.

It's also amazing to me that you consider homosexuality perverse, when the Bible is one of the most perverse books I have ever read in my entire life. It is disgustingly sexually perverse. If you don't believe me, SD... read it. If you choose to take those stories literally, then it is you who is perverse. Not homosexuals.


Also, Catholics are Christians. They are not pagans. Again, get your facts straight. Stop trying to separate yourself so much from the terrible acts that have been performed in the name of god.

What Christians would those be? Name a few.

There are so many examples of it. You know yourself how people were stoned to death and tortured etc. You didn't say if you believed in the old testament or the new testament, or both? Please let me know which you believe in.

I'm not saying your religion is evil as it is now, but you MUST understand that terrible things that Christianity has done for the world in the past. In fact, the very spread of Christianity can be attributed to the violent methods and scare tactics that Christians used to spread it. In the dark ages, Christians would burn people for being witches or for committing "heresy", an example of which was to say that the earth was round and revolved around the sun!

The fact is that Christians haven't always been the nice lovely people you take them to be now. 2000 years ago, the times were very different indeed. If you DO believe in the bible, you'll know that there are some biblical stories which involve fathers having sex with daughters, men being commanded to kill their sons (and obeying!)... men giving their daughters up to be raped instead of allowing a man to be buggered... and all of this condoned by god!

You're very naive indeed if you believe that Christians have always been the pinnacle of holiness and goodness. By the values you live by today, then it's safe to say that the Christians of today are far superior and have better morals than the Christians of biblical times.

Try reading this for a start:

http://mwillett.org/atheism/christian-civilization.htm

I'm trying to point out how annoying it can be when people make assumptions about you based on nothing relevant at all.

But I fear it may be lost on him as he likely has HIV, as he's clearly a repressed homosexual, and HIV  makes it difficult for people to concentrate. Coincidentally, another symptom of HIV is being a young male and making up facts to support an argument as to why you don't like homosexuals.

Fact!

Good heavens, he's almost certainly riddled with disease. Dirty, dirty, perverted boy.

If SD intends to make things up and make ridiculous and untrue statements to support his opinions on certain groups of people, he must expect people to do the same of him. I've decided I don't like SD, and I'm going to make up all the facts in the world as to why. Maybe this will help him realise the error of his perverted ways, and he'll stop playing into the hands of the devil himself.

Not every one, I can name many who aren't.

Just the ones who are so desperate to prove to themselves that being gay must be wrong, they make silly things up about homosexuals.

Those were different times. A lot of people nowadays have totally rejected God, and the world is a lot more corrupt than it was back in those days.

More people believe in god now then they did in the day the bible was written. Christianity has spread far further due to missions and things like that. Also, there was far more barbaric killing, women were treated VERY badly in those days, there was far more condoned violence and public hangings/stonings etc... even for very mild crimes such as a poor person stealing some bread to stay alive.

In conclusion: in those days, the number of Christians were far less than today and those that did exist were cruel, violent, judgemental and oppressive of people such as the sick, the poor, foreign people and women. Much of the population of the rest of the world was even worse... look at the barbaric killings and disfiguring traditions that occured in many countries in "those days".

Therefore, I would argue that god flaunting his powers in the bible but not flaunting his powers now is completely without excuse. he created men to be curious and to question things around them, after all. And surely by your argument, if he's not showing his powers to people nowadays because of corruption (even though I've already pointed out that things aren't more corrupt now), that means he's effectively abandoned his creations. Decided we're not good enough any more, is ignoring us.

It baffles me that you stick up for your view of god so much, when it is one of a cruel, oppressive, judgemental, two-faced and cold-hearted god. You seem to be arguing that your god IS an asshole. I don't understand why you wouldn't defend him as being kind, forgiving and leniant... unless you've never really thought about what it is that you worship.

Tell me, Steel DRummer... do you believe in the old testament and the new testament as both being fact?

Okay at this stage I'm inclined to agree with Helm and Andail and others: Everybody ignore the troll! We can all see that what he's saying is ridiculous, and none of us are going to change his mind until he grows up a little.

It seems obvious to me that he's a repressed homosexual, struggling to deal with his sexuality. There's no other reason he'd be so wound up by it all. It's no use arguing with people like him. Until he comes to terms with his homosexuality, he'll do anything to deny it.

Alliance: that's a really nice view of God, like the one I mentioned my friends having in school. And an awesome attitude, innit!!

Erm.

to most mothers, men only seem to be money machines?

¬¬ eh??

And what do you mean, about "You may know the morals of your homo friend but not as a homosexual couple"?

Can you explain to me how you believe a child would be raised incorrectly if raised by homosexual parents?

I was raised by an extremely abusive father, and a very loving but scared mother. I'm not a scared person, nor am I an abusi ve or violent person. I didn't turn out like my parents at all, but I still learned from them and their situation. That doesn't mean I chose to be exactly like either of them, so what makes you (or SD, I forget which of you originally said it) beileve that a child raised by homosexual couples would become gay?

The only obvious impact on that child that I can see, is that they wouldn't be anti-gay and would be advocates for gay rights. Unless they hate their parents, in which case they're probably rebel and be anti-gay or something...

I think it's called the Kinsey scale... look it up, it's interesting but I have to run home now as my work here is DONE (at work, not on the forums obviously)

[58% probably acquired HIV through heterosexual contact]

I'm going to post this in reply to Steel Drummer and radiowaves, because it is factual and interesting information for everyone to read whilst (hopefully) simultaneously educating the pair of them a little.

http://www.avert.org/eurosum.htm

Of the 23,246 people with newly diagnosed HIV which the West reported in 2004,

    * 58% probably acquired HIV through heterosexual contact
    * 31% were homo/bisexual men
    * 9% were injecting drug users
    * 36% were female

Heterosexual contact has been the most frequent transmission mode in the West since 1999. It is responsible for the largest proportion of diagnosed HIV infections in every country except Germany, Denmark, Greece and the Netherlands, in which men who have sex with men form the largest transmission group. Heterosexual transmission predominates even in Portugal, which has a particularly severe HIV epidemic among injecting drug users.




For the attention of Steel Drummer and this comment in particular:

I think in a place like Estonia, there'd be less gay people, because they don't have perverted sexual ideas fed to them...

Estonia has more cases of HIV and AIDS reported every year than Austria, Denmark, Iceland, Ireland, Norway, Sweden, Kazakhstan (great success!!), Greece... and so on and so on. Now, I'm not making any judgements about Estonia because clearly most countries have a problem with AIDS and there are some countries with more of a problem than Estonia. I'm simply pointing out the idiocy of what you said, Steel Drummer. Do you see that there, right there, is an example of you saying idiotic things without any knowledge behind what you're saying?

This is the kind of thing I'm talking about when I say you need to research your posts a little more.

If I hadn't read your post, I wouldn't have referenced it by saying: 'How can you make assumptions like that.' 

And besides, who are you to tell me what threads I should and shouldn't post in? That's the moderators' job.

You read but completely misunderstood my post, which you've done on several occasions recently. It's highly irritating, as though you're only choosing what you want to see and ignoring everything else.

I'm ASKING you not to post because you're making a fool of yourself, and winding up everyone else. And it's not even as though you're contributing opinions that are useful or informed... I wouldn't mind if your views were the opposite of mine but backed up with real information and fact, but you repeatedly spout utter nonsense that you've pulled out of nowhere.

It doesn't take a moderator to see that you're being an ass.

Forget gays, forget religion, forget everything... you're being an asshole. You're trying to argue about a subject you know nothing about, using facts you've made up or heard somebody else make up. That makes your contribution annoying and pointless, no matter what it is you're arguing about, so I ask you again, PLEASE stop posting. Do something useful like research homosexuality and then try posting again. But at the moment you're doing nothing but winding people up and adding yet more shit to the internet.

How do you know enough about the country to make assumptions like that? I think in a place like Estonia, there'd be less gay people, because they don't have perverted sexual ideas fed to them...

Steel Drummer, please at least read my post if you're going to reply to it. Or don't get involved in these discussions at all.

My point was that he doesn't know enough about homosexuality to make the assumptions that he does. It was an example, one that you should also pay attention to. Do you see now?

You repeatedly read post incorrectly and make offensive and uneducated remarks about gay people. Could you please stop posting in this thread or sort yourself out a bit.

How many more married gay men couples do you see getting AIDS than heterosexual married couples?

Exactly! I don't know a single gay person with AIDS. Especially not married gay couples, as they can't even get married in most places anyway.... Well said, SD

And look at places like Africa, where HIV is spreading horrifically fast. It's not spreading between the gay community, it's spreading from hetero to hetero, because of people having unprotected sex and not being educated enough about it. Tell me, radiowaves, does that make African people dirty and disgusting and worthless?

If religious people don't like gay people because god told them not to, then I wish they would say that and stop trying to think of other excuses as to why gay people are bad. Just admit you don't like them because they make you feel insecure and/or because god doesn't like them either. Don't make shit up.

Face it, homosexualism is not normal. Its a freakish side effect of nature. Vagina and penis fit with each other, anus and penis doesn't, at least without hurting anyone and without lots of lube (which applies to circumzision too).
Now, if a child is raised by homosexuals and he grows up without seeing the man-woman relationship, the odds are, the child turns gay in the future. Child is a learning organism, he adops most of his parents personalities and therefore he may not understand the man-woman relationship.
Plus thechild may suffer through community, what do you think how the other childs react when they hear that poor boy/girl has two fathers or two mothers?

And gay marriage is pointless. Most of gay people switch partners often, have sex with HIV positives and just care about sex. I am quite shure that married gay couples are still going to have threesomes etc, and that makes marrying quite pointless. It also applies to hetero couples who like group action...

I suggest you watch Gaspar Noes "Irreversible" to undrstand what the most part of gay community are (not for people who has weak nervers). I once saw the TV show where they interwieved a gay club owner and camera showed the rooms of the club. I'd say these kinds of parts are not in any normal clubs...

Oh dear, radiowaves... you really are ignorant.

People don't choose to be gay. If that was the case, why would children of two fundamentalist christians turn out to be gay? In fact, 99% of children who grow up to be gay, live with heterosexual parents. The idea that a child would turn out "gay" because he grew up with gay parents is a ridiculous statement to make, a completely uneducated and ridiculous statement. How old are you?

I am quite shure that married gay couples are still going to have threesomes

Again, what a horribly untrue thing to say. I work with many gay men right now; not one of them is this promiscuous, dirty stereotype that you seem to think all gay people are. One of them has been in a relationship for the past 6 years. Another has lived with his partner for the past two years.

You are "quite sure" that many married gay couples are still going to have threesome? What are you basing this on?

I'm quite stunned at how quickly people will stand up and making the stupidest of comments without really knowing what they're talking about.

And gay people are so careful about STDs these days, that they're a lot safer than many hetero people I know, who regularly engage in casual sex with strangers. Lots of straight women these days seem to think that being on the pill is sexual protection enough, without thinking of the dangers of sexually transmitted diseases. To assume that unsavoury and unsafe sexual practices are exclusive to the gay community is ridiculous.

Can I please see statistics that prove that "the odds are" that children turn gay if they have gay parents?

I'd also like to say that you're wrong about the penis and the anus not fitting together. They do, very well indeed, and anal sex can be a very pleasurable experience for both parties involved... male or female. I know this from experience. You, on the other hand, are simply making up a bunch of bullshit.

Please don't bother posting in this thread if it's simply to make uneducated comments. You'll be quickly shot down by people smarter than you, and it's going to waste everyones time.


The comments you're making, are the equivelent of me saying:

I saw your profile and that you're from Estonia. Estonia is a 3rd world country, isn't it? I'm surprised you even have the internet out there. Everybody out there is uneducated... I'm not surprised you have such ill-informed views. Estonians don't stay in school past the age of 12... at that age, they're made to work on the Paddy Farms with their parents. Maybe you're so paranoid about AIDS because AIDS is so prevalent out there...

Marriage existed before christianity, I think, and it also exists in non-christian countries and cultures. The idea that Marriage is an exclusively christian/religious thing and that is why gay people shouldn't be allowed to marry, is absolutely ridiculous and one that's thrown around far too often.

In fact, nowadays many people who get married aren't religious at all. If I was to marry my current boyfriend, we wouldn't do so in a church or under the eye of god yadda yadda yadda.


I have no idea what you mean by the rest of your post, though.

As far as I know, single parents are allowed to adopt children so long as they can prove they can adequately support the child in a stable environment, ie not be at work all day and not earning enough money to support them. So it's actually pretty rare, because it's a rare situation to be in...

Blacks and Jews are actual races of people- gays aren't. They make up an even smaller population than either group. 

OH MY GOD.

Blacks and jews are not races of people, Steel Drummer!


I also agree wholeheartedly with what Becky just said very well indeed:

what impact religion should have on government policy, and whether the religious views of one population sector should be imposed upon everyone through law.

You agree they should have the same rights as everyone else? I'm going to be honest... given your past comments, that surprises but pleases me. Do you think they should be given the right to adopt children and marry?

Also, can you elaborate on this whole special government benefits thing? I'm not really sure what you mean by it... I mean, it automatically makes me think of the Gay Parade that Brighton has... which is sponsered by several big companies but is absolutely BRILLIANT... everybody has such an amazing time, gay or not gay... it's just a massive colourful loud party in Brighton that everybody enjoys. So, I wouldn't be against that... but I'm still not sure what you mean exactly. Soo... elaborate? 

Same rights: Well, they are people. :/
A couple adopting a kid... I dunno. That would be kind of weird if the kid had to bring his parents to school or something:
Teacher: Hello Tommy, who are these people?
Tommy: This is my daddy, and my daddy.
Teacher: That's...emm... nice.

Gay marriage: I don't think so. I'm not against two men doing whatever they want, but getting physical together is a big no-no in my book.

Government benefits: Like I said, I'm not sure about where you're from, but in North America, big companies are giving millions of dollars to homosexual groups. Companies like Ford, Wal-Mart, etc. If they give so much to that minority group, why not give millions to Jews, or blacks, or Muslims? Do you understand what I mean, now Meowster?

By the way, I checked your profile (Meowster) and it says you're a male. Are you gay, because I remember you saying you had a boyfriend...

No, sorry, I'm female and straight... I set it as male years ago, don't know why...

Companies DO give millions of dollars to "minority groups" such as Jews, black people, and muslims. There are plenty of groups out there that promote these groups... I mean, not so long ago, people were discriminating against black people in much the same way as people now discriminate against gay people. There is nothing different in giving money to gay groups. Or do you disagree?

As for it being awkward to introduce your gay parents to your friends... okay, you believe that good christians should not be judgemental, yes? In that case, it should not matter if a child introduces his parents to you, and they're gay, because you will NOT judge that child based on what his or her parents do. If anybody else does, say for instance, non-christians that are anti-gay anyway... then we should not discriminate against the child or the parents because of the ignorant actions of other people. Do you understand what I'm saying? Do you agree or disagree?

It's perfectly reasonable to believe, no matter what your views, that two men or two women can raise a child together as well as a man or a woman. I mean, look at what a bad job some men and women do of it nowadays... it's not hard to better them is it

Also, if you don't believe that gay people should be able to marry/have sex, then you really don't believe that they have the same rights. Please, I know how you feel but you must accept that you really don't believe they should have the same rights. But I ask you to think about this:

If a man wants to marry another man under the blessing of God, who are you to decide if that is right or wrong, or if that's what god wants? You may THINK it isn't what god wants, but surely they should be allowed to nonetheless? And if it ISN'T what god wants, then he won't validate their marriage or accept it himself... but what business is it of ours to choose what GOD wants?

I agree that gays should have the same rights as everyone else, BUT if it's equality they want, then they shouldn't be getting special government benefits in certain countries (I'm not sure about where you guys are from, but I think in North America, they're getting sponsored by Ford and other big car companies). 

You agree they should have the same rights as everyone else? I'm going to be honest... given your past comments, that surprises but pleases me. Do you think they should be given the right to adopt children and marry?

Also, can you elaborate on this whole special government benefits thing? I'm not really sure what you mean by it... I mean, it automatically makes me think of the Gay Parade that Brighton has... which is sponsered by several big companies but is absolutely BRILLIANT... everybody has such an amazing time, gay or not gay... it's just a massive colourful loud party in Brighton that everybody enjoys. So, I wouldn't be against that... but I'm still not sure what you mean exactly. Soo... elaborate?

I'm not sure how individual gay people would get individual sponsership from companies...

I agree with how you feel about finland... I'm also ashamed that both England and Ireland still won't allow the same rights to gay people as they will to straight people. It's just so backwards and horrible, and you would think that in this day and age, people would have let go of primitive ideas of the past and would realise there's nothing wrong with homosexuality. It doesn't hurt anybody, so what's the problem?

I've heard some people argue against homosexuality, saying that it causes the spread of AIDS. AIDS spreads between male and females, no matter what their sexuality... as far as I know, it spreads slightly more rapidly among the male gay community because anal sex makes it easier for the virus to spread... right? Something like... the skin and yadda yadda inside the anus is more easily torn/damaged by penetration than the inside of a vagina during sex, so the virus is more easily passed on... correct me if I'm wrong, anybody...

It seems really horrible to me that this is a reason for people to discriminate against gay people...

I remember speaking to a girl I worked with once. She was 17 years old, had a 3 year old daughter and was a single mother. I mentioned how saddened I was that gay people weren't allowed to adopt children, and I remember her screwing up her face and saying, "Ugh! Of course they shouldn't! It's so wrong... two men bringing up a child. It shouldn't be allowed. Disgusting. It's just NOT RIGHT."

And there she was, bringing up her 3 year old daughter on her own in a council estate, working part time so she could afford babysitters and booze for when she went out on the weekends (I'm not assuming this by the way... I knew her quite well, it was a known fact).

I find that most people who discriminate against gays are either very old, religious people, or very poorly educated people. Anybody with an ounce of sense realises that sexuality is a complete non-issue.

I live in Brighton, the gay capital of England, and I know so many gay men and women.... they're absolutely no different from hetero men and women. There's no difference. Nothing at all, except what they do in their own time together, the type of people they fancy. I suppose anti-gay people must have some idea that they're terrible, disgusting people... I have no other idea as to why people would discriminate against a group of people who are absolutely no different to heterosexual people such as myself.


EDIT: Oh god Steel Drummer PLEASE go away, I really want an intelligent discussion to go on in here.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/6605487.stm

Oh Iran,

sort yourself out mate.