Messages

@Meowster: I'm very aware of all the things you mentioned.  It doesn't make me angry to be made aware of these things, but it does make me angry when I'm called "selfish" because of my eating habits.  And yes, part of me does care about all these horrible realities.  But if a am feeling charitable, I'd rather put my hard earned cash towards something like starving children,  or Cancer reasearch, or even asthma.  Everyone is individual, and I just happen to rate the welfare of chickens as slightly less important than these things... I haven't got enough money to be conscience-free in every aspect of my life.

All I'm saying is that you're aiming your guilt trips at the wrong people.  

Yes, if enough people buy free-range eggs then this certainly will encourage supemarkets to stock more of them... because they know they have to follow the trends to make the most money.  Like when the whole 'organic' fad happened a couple of years ago, all of a sudden EVERYTHING was organic, and the supermarkets were laughing all the way to the bank.

What you should realise (and it's been mentioned by someone else earlier) is that just coz something on the shelf says 'free-range' it doesn't mean the animal didn't suffer... the term 'free-range' is a technicality rather than a symbol of happy hens.

1. The "selfish" remark was aimed at people who openly admitted they can't be bothered to buy free range even if they can afford it, which may or may not have been what you originally said - I'm not going to go back and look at your post. That is the definition of selfish. If a person can't afford it or doesn't have access to it somehow, that's a reasonable excuse I suppose but saying you can't be bothered, you don't care what happened to the animal before your plate etc... this is an undeniably selfish attitude. So I can't remember if that's what you said, if not then the selfish remark wasn't aimed at you.

2. I wish people would stop comparing animal welfares to diet fads. It's not a 'fad'. It may be something that in recent times has gained more exposure and concern as certain intensive farming techniques have come to public attention, but that's only a good thing. That doesn't make it a fad. Concern about the wellbeing of living creatures that can feel pain, fear etc is not a 'fad'.

3. I realise that just because it says free-range doesn't mean it's from animals that have received the kind of treatment I personally would give them. That's not even vaguely an excuse for not buying free range meat though is it? Maybe where you're from it's different, but here in the UK most packaging on meat or eggs will give a fair amount of information on the way in which the animals are kept (whether they are outdoor/indoor reared, RSPCA or Freedom Food approved etc). This is far preferable, I'm sure you'll agree, to buying Tesco Value Chicken Breasts which you know for sure have led terrible lives before their death. You can also ask for information about various local farms from your local butchers (again I'm not sure how easy this is in the US or elsewhere).

Zooty - Oh man I want my own chickens again one day. Having animals when I was growing up was the best thing. Ducks and chickens ftw!

Nobody is stopping you from eating what you want.

Paying for free-range does make a difference.

1) it supports the farmers who produce free range products
2) it encourages your local supermarket to stock more free range produce and therefore supports free range farmers. In time this will mean more animals will have the opportunity of leading happier lives before slaughter.

Why do you think it wouldn't make a difference to buy free range?

As for feeling guilty, stop to think about what you're saying. Do you feel so defensive and angry and provoked when people make you aware of suffering in third world countries? Of poorly paid indian children working in squalid and dangerous conditions to make clothes that people like us wear? Would you rather not be aware of these things so that you can feel less guilty about not trying to help or avoiding products made by children working in sweatshops? If you would rather not be aware of these things and undertake in intelligent discussion about it then you can stop reading this thread, stop reading the news, etc. Eat what you want, but be aware of the suffering you're supporting by choosing certain products. And if that makes you feel guilty, perhaps the solution is that you should choose free range products instead.

[No.]

Bah, what the heck, I'll argue

To say that 'if it ends up on the plate what does it matter whAt it's life is like prior to that' is, in a word, dumb. All people end up 6 feet under, but of course it matters what their quality of life is like prior to that!

Does it matter to the worms that will eat my decaying body that I lead a life with a good job and wife and kids?

No.


~Trent

You're missing the point entirely, please read and understand what people say before commenting.

The attitude that "if it ends up on your plate it doesn't matter what life it had before because it only ended up as food anyway"... that's what I'm pointing out as being a very wrong attitude to have. The assumption that it's alright to mistreat animals 'meant' for food because they all end up dead anyway. It is the equivelent of arguing that nobodys happiness or wellbeing matters as everything ends up dead ultimately - so why bother leading a happy life or making sure that others do?

Prog Z

"My reply was directed at Meowster's inference that it's important that an animal has quality of life before it is slaughtered because it's important that people have quality of life before they die."

Again, this is not what I said, please read and make sure you understand the point being made before you comment. I never said that it's important they have a quality of life because it's important that people have a quality of life.

My point was (as I said above) their life is not pointless and void just because they ultimately end up dead on a plate. This is the equivelent of saying that human life is worthless and we might as well all lead unhappy and violent lives, simply because we all end up dead anyway so what's the point? Why shouldn't I beat up people weaker than me if they all end up dead in the end anyway?

You can argue 'but why be more cruel than necessary?', but when it comes down to it you can also argue it's cruel to treat these animals exceptionally well just to slaughter them.

Do you think this is more cruel than treating them horrifically badly just to slaughter them?

[really]

I'm a vegetarian and I can honestly say that I don't care what other people eat. It's THEIR choice.

If a majority of people feel that the bio industry is doing something wrong, the majority of people should change their ways to reflect that, and hopefully the industry can be changed that way.

If, however, the majority of people don't really care enough about what the bio industry is doing (as seems to be the case right now), the majority of people don't have to change their ways and equally hopefully, nothing changes.

There's a very angry and irrational minority trying to change things to suit them.

I say screw them. I'm not saying anyone in this topic is like this, I'm primarily talking about meat nazis, of which I know a couple and they piss me the hell off.

What you stuff your face with is your choice. If it's good for you, hey, right on! If it's bad for you, don't complain if you made that choice yourself. If it's good for another, hey, that's awesome. But it doesn't mean you've got the right to tell others what they should or shouldn't do.

edit: I can't let it slide.

'at least domestic animals have a roof over their heads' - so did the Jews in concentration camps.

Really? You're comparing animals being used for food with the genocide of millions of humans? Fucking really? Way to invalidate your own point by going for shock value, Meowster, nicely done.

I knew someone would leap to take offence at this. The point I'm making is that people at the time of concentration camps, people 1) turned a blind eye to the suffering because it wasn't them suffering so they didn't care and 2) the assumption that just because someone or something has forcefully had a roof put over its head makes it somehow automatically better off. I'm not comparing animals being used for food to the genocide of millions of humans, I'm using the attitudes of that time to compare the attitudes now of the abuse of millions of animals. Whether you like it or not they're similar attitudes and it's a comparison worth pointing out. 

The treatment of Jews and other minority groups during WWII was appalling, both in terms of how it happened and how people allowed it to happen - it was massive, and of course people are going to use that to compare to things that occur today or have occured in the past. It's not a bad thing, and people certainly shouldn't become insta-offended when it happens.

I'm not saying that it's on the same level or anything, so stop panicking and jumping on the defensive.

I'm gonna stop posting in this thread now... I've strayed too far from the original point. it was originally supposed to encourage people who'd never put much thought into it before to choose their meat with animal welfare in mind. I'm still shocked at the overwhelming majority of amazingly selfish responses which is what caused me to argue, and I shouldn't have because let's face it - someone who says they don't care how the animal was treated before it ended up on their plate has already made a decision and isn't going to change it just because I say so. Although to those people I'd still ask you to read about where your meat is coming from - sometimes the harsh reality is far worse than what you imagine.

But back to the original point of the thread, I would ask anyone who can reasonably afford it to a) eat less meat for the sake of the environment amongst other things and 2) when choosing your meat, choose free-range whenever you can. That's all. Ciao! Bye!

Hey I'm on my iPhone so this reply will be short...

To say that 'if it ends up on the plate what does it matter whAt it's life is like prior to that' is, in a word, dumb. All people end up 6 feet under, but of course it matters what their quality of life is like prior to that!

'at least domestic animals have a roof over their heads' - so did the Jews in concentration camps. Okay, a severe example admittedly but I'm trying to point out that that is a null thing to say.

I rescued animals from intensive farming when I was younger and when you witness first hand how cruel it is, it is hard to have the same selfish 'I don't care where it came from so long as it's on my plate' attitude. When I rescued my turkeys they were initially frightened, covered in lice, couldn't walk because they were so weak... Within a few weeks their plummage was shiny, they were outgoing and friendly and you know what, they even pestered to be allowed sit on my lap

People SHOULD eat less meat. We all eat far too much. Look how disgustingly fat so many people are, yet continue to gorge themselves on the flesh of animals who have led miserable lives with the attitude that 'can't afford a few £s more....burp'

I'm really disappointed by the attitudes of so many people here. If you have a real reason to buy cheaply produced meat, whatever that may be, fine. But most of you just can't be bothered to pay a little extra. For shame.

I can't believe what a selfish attitude that is Monkey. As long as you can acknowledge that your reasons for choosing cheaper meat are entirely selfish, I guess that's fine by me...

Layabout, I agree - organic/free range actually tastes better. I generally find that the better the farming methods, the better quality the meat - for instance chickens that have been reared slowly outdoors, instead of the intensively farmed ones that never see the light of day, the meat is poor quality with visible wounds, been fed all kinds of disgusting things to fatten it up fast... and they also tend to use incredibly fast-growing types of chickens bred specifically for meat, if memory serves correctly... Their bone structures are unable to support how fast they grow from hatching, it's really quite disgusting.

Yeah there's probably never going to be a lack of need for intensive farming, but if more people make the right decision then there'll be more free-range then there is intensive, and that's a start right? In places like Brighton there's such a large awareness of this issue that most pubs and restaurants here serve free range meat or supertasty vegetarian alternatives, which is awesome and admirable

I would never make you call fish "sea kittens". I manage to avoid a lot of stuff Peta do/say because I'm from the UK, but man they really do make a nuisance of themselves sometimes... which isn't good for their cause as it just turns people off it :-/


Limpingfish - most people are apathetic or have never paid much thought to it, hence this thread. Sometimes when you tell people this stuff, and how easy it is to switch to free range, they start making conscious decisions to. It's not hard, it takes no extra effort and very little extra expense but I think it's a good thing to do. Even just buying it when you can makes all the difference

You know, if we completely went back to nature, and only ate hunted animals, they wouldn't exactly be happy campers when they died.  In fact, given the human primitive style of relay racing to wear the sweatgland-lacking large mammals down, they would likely be more then a little hot and bothered.
So the absolutely most natural way, induces terror and panic in the flesh we eat.
But unfortunately, natural hunter gatherer tactics would not provide enough food for the world population as it stands today.
Plus, the term 'free-range' is so loose as far as the law goes, that most farms who claim this 'distinction', aren't exactly the ol' timey farmyards of good ol' yester year, with the chickens pecking at grubs and grains. Nope, it often just means they get to wander around densely packed in a covered enclosure. So instead of a Tokyo tube hotel existence, it's a Beijing rush hour existence.
Big improvement.
To be a prey species is fraught with peril. Farming has given them a roof over their head, and no need to worry about food.
Their are worse fates.

I can't really make out your point... are you saying that because there are worse fates than being eaten, it shouldn't matter how an animal is treated? Or because you can never be 100% sure that meat is free range when it says it is, there's no point in trying?

That's a pretty ridiculous thing to say, if so. Or are you just pointing it out? Obviously some places are not so "free range" as others but making conscious choices and doing a bit of research is quite easy, it shouldn't stop anybody from trying!

Of course the world could not survive as it is using normal hunter gatherer techniques, but as it is most people eat far too much meat anyway, especially now that it can be farmed so intensively at the cost of animal welfare. It doesn't need to be this way, and there really is no reasonable excuse to justify that it is. Too many people in this world are grossly overweight and could probably do with cutting down on their intake of meat amongst other foods...


Also Stupot that's thee most selfish thing I've heard in a long while. Saying that you "feel" for the chickens is I assume a sarcastic statement since if you did, even vaguely, you would definitely not have the selfish attitude that you've just displayed. Actively choosing non-intensively farmed meat is not the latest moral fad, neither is the welfare and happiness of animals. Choosing free range is not the same as choosing organic or choosing non-GM - even though these things are arguably advantageous they are completely different issues.

It often costs the same or only very slightly less to make a move to free range, especially when it comes to eggs. Please consider it. Paying what, 20p extra for free range eggs is not going to stop you from saving for an xbox, but the money will go to a worthy cause.


I'm amazed at how many of the people replying to this thread have already shown a really terrible disregard for life. Appalling.

Doesn't have to be that way if you buy freedom farmed meat

I've recently been reading about the way animals are reared and killed for consumption and it's pretty upsetting. Though I've always been concious about the decisions I make regarding meat and egg purchases, reading the details of the unnecessary suffering that animals go through just to produce cheap low quality meat is really upsetting and spurred me to start a thread about it, in case some of you don't already make awesome purchasing decisions when buying your meat. Yay!

I hope you guys choose your meat/eggs/milk wisely. Please always choose free range, freedom farmed meat. If you can't afford to buy free range meat then don't buy meat at all, don't support intensive farming. It's only a few £s difference and helps to support farmers who treat their animals with respect and give them a decent life before they end up on a plate. If you can't afford meat, buy some tasty vegetables or a nice bit of fish instead - they're cheaper and probably better for you!

Lots of people don't think about what they're buying. They buy the cheapest meat available without a thought to the suffering of the animal that meat came from. Please don't support this

If you want to be especially cool and sexy and awesome, you would also ask restaurants if the meat they serve is from free range animals, and you would not buy products containing eggs that you don't know are from free range hens. I admit this may be easier for me than it is for some, as I live in Brighton where people are quite conscious about this sort of thing. But make an effort anyway plx, because that makes you super extra ultra cool.

People who buy cheap intensively farmed meat are assholes. Don't be an asshole! Buy Free Range! Think of the animals! Meat from sad animals tastes bitter and salty and sad.

In all seriousness there is no excuse for buying intensively farmed meat so please, please think of the difference you make by buying free range

Bye!


ADDITIONAL VIEWING:
Imagine being born, living and dying here
Be glad you're not a chicken too
Happy pigs
Healthy happy turkeys
Happy cows!
Sad cows I wish I was a burger already

I used to be suuuuch a jerk, not just here but on the entire rest of the internet. I think lots of young people who first discover the internet and forums can be the way I was - thinking they're funny and endearing and more important than they actually are, or thinking that certain behaviours are clever, etc. Looking back on very old posts is interesting and cringeworthy. But it's also kinda useful because I moderate some forums for my work and I now understand how to deal with and interact with the very young and hyperactive user base - they're not all bad, they're just silly excited little kids that will one day look back on their posts from today, and cringe

When I started posting here, I think my parents had just had an epic break-up, I had just started school for the first time in my life (been home educated before) and started actually really interacting with other people for the first time in my life. It was all super overwhelming, I believe I was about 14 or 15. Since then I've finished college, moved country, worked in the games industry, become an actual game designer, been through redundancies and the heartbreak of a failed new studio startup, had some stalkers, met some people I'll never forget, lost a bunch of weight, got some cats, and also do work as a community admin for another games company.



Yay I'm grown up!

This joke is rude btw ¬¬


My friend told this around the christmas dinner table at his parents house and it was met with silence:

Spoiler

Statistics show that 9 out of 10 people enjoy gangrape.

[close]

He told me that the joke had failed and maybe it had been inappropriate, and I pointed out that he'd told it wrong (he'd said 1 out of 10 people, not 9 out of 10). So he assumed that was the reason it had fallen flat, and he tried telling it again at a more opportune moment. I don't think it went any better the second time.

I didn't forget I just... had a slight memory fail

Mark I'm sorry :'(

It has been four/five years though that's almost a quarter of the total time I've been alive ¬¬

My memory... is shit... I'm so sorry I remember now!

Also thanks, great photos. I am pleased to be able to compare myself now and then. I look so bloody different, and it's good to know. Hurray for weight loss!

How come I no longer have nice flushed cheeks and lips like that though? I'm just bone pale and rubbish now. I was so fat and young I want my colouring back.

[EDIT:]

You fucking douche

I sent you a letter and you replied, you told me all about your day in school and how writing to me was much more fun. And you told me all about your Tim Shafer thesis

Then a month or so later, I sent you Grim Fandango - remmber? That game you HADN'T PLAYED yet you were writing all about it's creator? And I believe in return you sent me Kings Quest Quadrilogy (which I haven't yet played, Sierra games make me vomit)! But no letters that time, but because I sent you GF, you did indeed, as matzy points out...start the I LOVE MARK LOVEGROVE thread

Then at Gilberfest you promised a whole BUNDLE of things but you fucked off about 20 minutes after we'd all met you! So thanks, but I'll pass on that drink, because I can't be arsed to talk to you for 10 minutes and then myself for the remaining 7 hours. YOU WERE SUPPOSED TO GO TO ANDAILS!!!!!!

Oh, and later that night, Andail's random swedish friend lady started getting a little over friendly with me, lol....so you missed out!!! Actually, I guess you didn't. You had spaff, and he was the one that guided me into Brighton safely. So no hard feelings

Well, hope that fills some gaps for you Peace

I couldn't have been supposed to go to Andail's, because my flight was booked for 6am or something ridiculous like that the next morning. I had to go to the airport.

I hung out with you guys for ages, I only left 'cos I literally HAD to get to the airport. And actually Mr Mark, I remember insisting that we waited for you when your ticket didn't work in the underground thing! Someone else (¬¬) wanted to rush on ahead to catch the last train but I stayed at the risk of missing my train and therefore my flight. So ner ner! I wasn't all bad! Also we went for a drink in a pub some place and got food. I'm not making this up in my head, this stuff all actually happened. I'm sure it did.

Also Spaff wasn't there, I didn't have Spaff, I had that guy with the towel on his head and Scotch

EDIT: Wait, you're talking about Brightens, not Gilbertfest. I think the reason I fucked off after 20 minutes was because Spaff started whining, so I apologise for that. I've grown some balls since then and stopped paying attention to him when he whines about stupid shit. PS I love you Spaff ¬¬



Random fact: when my Mum saw a photo of Scotch after Gilbertfest, she said "oh he's a nice looking boy".

Why is there a huge chunk of my memory missing?

Mark, did I get you anything in return?

You should come to Brighton some time (when I have a job again), I'll buy you a drink.

Mark did you send me Lucasarts games???
Is that where I got those??

Yay thanks Limpingfish

Mark, a distant memory has just stirred in me...? Did you send me a letter after Gilbertfest? Because I was in Brighton that summer but my Mum said I'd gotten a letter from England and she'd post it to me, but she n00bed up and got my postcode wrong so I never got the letter. Or she lost it and was too embarrassed to admit it.

Also I don't think I even had a camera.

I was a chubbychubby chubster! I had chubby cheeks and such. Also I can't believe I met Ron Gilbert wow! But I have no photos to remind me of that excellent day

Anybody got these? The old place they were stored online seems to be down now...

I wanna see what I looked like in 2005 when I was a right little fatty

I would like to thank The Flu, Conjunctivitis and Appendicitis for making this the most memorable Christmas I'll ever fucking have.

(My boyfriend is in hospital after having his appendix out, high on morphine with a catheter jammed into his... well you know. And I had to peel my eyes open with a warm damp cloth this morning before I could even make myself a lemsip to try and stem the flow of agony from my flu. We've postponed Christmas until Sunday...)

Sorry I needed that bit of a moan THANKS FOR LISTENING!