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I stole mine from a song, but it's not a nickname...

Yeah, but did you fight? Was someone shooting at you?I think that's what veteran really implies. Just being signed up doesn't mean shit. That's certainly the case in Australia anyway.

Upgraded surveilance gear.  Sure, the idea's sound, but the practicality of it is ridiculous.  It would cost far too much.

And the current prison systems are so damn cheap...
And you'd be happy telling the child of murder victim that they'll never see they're parents because it would have cost a bit more at tax time?

Back to the rehab thing again, huh?  One of my main points is that Rehabilitation doesn't work, unless they want to change.  Most criminals don't want to change, most don't feel remorse, most don't even think what they have done is wrong.  

So back it up. You can't just claim it doesn't work. Find some stats or something.

How can you say that "you can always make up for wrongs, even if it's only preventing others from making the same mistakes"?.  What possible way is there for a killer to make it up,  and wouldn't it involve being released back into society?

Yes, it would involve being released. And who are you to say that once someone has broken a rule, they are completely untrustworthy and worthless as a human being.

I'm not saying that by making prisons "just a little worse" will make them more effective.  I agree the prison system is far too inadequate.  What I'm saying is make them a *lot* worse.  Enough to survive, infact (see previous post).  I suggest a prison system where criminals are genuinely scared of the consequences.

You're a sadistic bastard. I find it hard to believe you would condone treating anyone like that. Do you really think that the current prison system isn't scary enough as it is. Look at the US. Murderers haven't stopped killing people even though they know that they might be murdered themselves by the government for committing a crime.

As to your last point.  Yes, I've read the whole thread.  I checked again, and all I can see from your previous posts is:

1. You think punishment is crap and self-righteous.
2. Rehabilitation, whether it works or not, is the answer.

You seem to think I'm not in favour of imprisonment. I am. It does work. I'm not in favour of treating people as animals. I haven't claimed rehabilitation is the only answer at all. I also never claimed punishment was self-righteous. I just claimed it was for children.

Like CJ said, it's the "threat" of punishment.  With much harsher prisons, more people will not want to commit a crime due to the fear of the consequences.

The deterent effect of imprisonment is real and does work. It doesn't imply that goal needs to be inhumane though. But do you really think anyone who actually does murder someone has thought all the consequences out. If harsher prisons worked then places like iraq(where you claim the prison are the kind you want to see), wouldn't have had any crime. Yet, there was crime in iraq. I think it's widely acknowledged in jurisprudential circles that deterence only works so far. Look at people who are put into solitary confinement, which is much like the prisons you describe. If harsher penalties worked, then no-one would ever be put into solitary confinement. That fact that people are put into solitary though, shows that it is ineffective in stopping problem behaviour. Like just about everything else, the deterent effect of imprisonment is subject to the law of diminishing returns. You propose prisons that are not likely to be any more effective than current ones. Not only that, your proposed harsher prisons are inhumane.

To me, a removal of society, humane as it may be, is still a form of punishment.

The whole notion of punishment is centred around the idea of deliberately hurting[/] someone because of something that they have done. If the removal from society is designed only to prevent them repeating their behaviour and nothing more, then it isn't punishment. Sure, it might not be too pleasant, but it's not designed to be unpleasant. The difference is on the emphasis.

Yeah well, that's how it goes. I just don't like smileys.

Surveilance Bracelets.  These tell you where a person is.  They can still commit a crime, you just have the proof of where they were after the fact.

So make upgraded ones that have audio and video signals that are activated whenever the wearer is near someone else. Or, just keep tabs on someone with a video servailence system. There's plenty of options.

Humane removal from society where the person can be taught why what they did was wrong...  Could you explain this in more detail, please.

Like goal now, except without drugs, rape and actually making sure the goal has a rehabilitation program.

The upmost thing...  I was not trying to twist your words, and I apologise if it seemed that way.  It's just that rapists, killers and paedophiles *can't* fix what they've done, to any extent.

That's rubbish. You can always do something to make up for wrongs, even if it's only preventing others from making the same mistakes.

Punishment.  It just doesn't work at the moment, nor does rehab.  The only way to fix this is to improve them, but rehab doesn't work unless the person wants to change, and even then there's no actual proof (s)he's different.

Ok, so neither work, but you have some special insight which says that punishment would work. The world's prisons are the most fucked up places on the planet. You think that by being just a little worse they will suddenly become more effective? Rehab doesn't work at the moment because no one makes a serious attempt at it.

You say that you need better policing.  The police can only catch you after you have done something.  If convicted, you enter a inadequate prison system.  This is not enough of a deterrent to stop people commit the crimes.

Just the presence of the police prevents most crime from happening. Ok, so you pay for more cops and give them better tools to prevent crime. Our goals are terrible and if getting anally raped for the rest of your natural life isn't a deterent, then what do you propose will be?

You seem to dislike punishment as a whole.  What would you suggest, instead of punishing someone, in order to prevent people committing crimes?

Have you even read the rest of this thread? I think I answered your question before you asked it.

It's just a ball, but it's got his signiture, loving written by whatever machine printed it out.

Excuse me, did you just make generic derogatory remarks towards a country you probably know very little about? 'cause I couldn't be sure with all the stuttering.

Let's see...
1) An ironic comment which at once acknowledges western civilisation's debt to the greek thinker's of yesteryear and also makes the wry observation that greece is no longer the centre of said western civilisation.
2) One of the delightful quirks of the English language.
3) The same status I assign to the city I live in, A hole.

Yes well, it appears I did make generic derogatory remark about a country I probably know very little about. I think it's obvious it wasn't serious though...

Um, I didn't "defending yourself".  Besides, hitting back is not a defence, it's retaliation.  Blocking and running is defending yourself.

That's overly simplistic and you know it. Sometimes you can't run. Hitting someone so they can't hit you anymore is defence. Retaliation is coming back an hour later with a gang.

You'd want this rapist to "stop doing it".  How d'you suggest that happen?  A stern talking to is just not going to cut it.

And you think "punishment" is the only way to do it? How about surveilance bracelets or failing that, a humane removal from society where the person can be taught why what they did was wrong.

"Do their upmost to reverse the damage they've already done".  The only way to do this is to go back in time, and stop it from happening.  This can't be done.  No amount of apologising will fix the emotional scars left on the victim.

You do understand what upmost means, don't you? It means doing their best to provide clean up the mess they've created. It doesn't mean they have to fix it all, just as much as they can. You're trying to twist what I said into something else.

Ergo, punishment.  Knowing that the rapist is in prison for the crime is some comfort to them.  However, most are living in fear of the day they get out.  What guarantees are they given that they work rape again? None.  That's what's wrong with the prison system, in the western world.

And what precisely does punishment do to stop reoffenders? You're arguing against your own position. On one hand you say people should be punished, on the the other you admit that punishment doesn't stop people reoffending. Do you know the best way to stop the victim fearing the day someone gets out? It's to rehabilitate the person so they won't do it again.

Not everyone can be happy, peaceful people.  It takes something that's uncivilised and barbaric to scare the bad element away from crime.

No it doesn't. Criminals are punished now and they still commit crimes. You don't have to treat people like sub-humans to stop crime, you need better policing.

Your entire argument rests on the (hidden) premise that the only way to stop someone doing something socially destructive is to punish them. You don't even attempt to show this is the case. Your argument begs the question. The only way it can be right -- as you've layed it out -- is if you assume it's correct to start with.

Sure, revenge is somewhat childish.  If someone punches you in the face, do you thank them for it? or punch them back?  If someone raped your mother or your sister, would you pat them on the back?  No, you want them to suffer, too.

Defending yourself has nothing to do with revenge.

If someone raped someone I knew, I wouldn't want them to suffer. I'd want them to A) Stop doing it and B) Do their upmost to reverse the damage they've already done. Yes, they should be made to feel the shame they have inflicted on their victims, but only so they never do it again. Deep down, I don't want anyone to suffer. Revenge is an uncivilised, barbaric notion that belongs in the past.

Iqu, you're a sad, sad man. Revenge is for children.

I have a stress ball with the Ernie Dingo seal of approval. How good is that? I would suggest that it's mightily good. Mightily good indeed.

Remind me why I'm so proud to live here? :

Because they trick you into it. Otherwise everyone in Canada would be depressed about not being in Australia.

It does all make sense, except for the pno bit. It's just a bit... obscure.

I have about 5 facial scars from doing crazy shit when I was a kid. But I don't mind since I wasn't pretty to start with and they just make me look tough.

I'm sure you've heard worse.

It was ironic exaggeration. Which I'm sure you understood.

I can't imagine why someone wouldn't understand that we shouldn't have a system of punishment for rapists.

Why should anyone be punished for anything? Note, punishment is different to separation from society. To punish someone is to say, We're going to do something bad to you to even out the bad you did to someone else. I'm all in favour of rapists being prevented from raping, but it doesn't need to involve being punished.  

But obviously some form of punishment is necessary.  Certain actions quite simply require consequences, such as murder, rape, theft, and so forth.  

That's the worst argument I've ever heard. You need to back that kind of shit up. You can't just claim something that big.

Also Onethinkinggal you missed the point. I'm saying arbitrary as in the rationale behind the rules is arbitrary. This does not mean that they are applied abitrarily. Also, why do you "deserve" to be punished for anything?

I'm a veteran.  Please don't mourn me.

Where did you fight?

Pno is from "say pno to pneumonia". It was on a flu shot poster.

Also,

Spoiler

Yes, there are only two rooms. But that's kind of the point. It's an existential nightmare.

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A comment, A comment, my Kingdom for a comment!