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Being on dialup makes one wary of posting large images on forums.  I know it drives me nuts waiting for images to download, because you can't read the thread cause it pops all over as the images load.  Pet peeve of mine.  Anyway, just for you.

http://www.geocities.com/colintheriot/

I've been drawing and re-drawing the characters for Minion 13, trying to accomplish a couple of goals.  I've tried to reduce the shading that I normally do to three shades per item.  This'll make it much easier on me for doing animations I think.   Also, I've been trying to make a more solid style than my normal "scribbly" look, as I think it'll work better for the material of the game.

This is from left to right Doctor Destruction, Commander Goodness, and the player character, Minion 13.  

After reaching this state, I think I'm happy with the way the characters are turning out, and I'm going to proceed from here with the backgrounds and items.  I'll show some of those too when they're finished.

P.S. I know the outline is a bit jaggy around the Commander.  He was the first one I did, and is less refined.

I actually OWN Lost Treasures.  It came with print manuals 3.5 AND 5.25 floppies.  I know you're jealous.  I know you are!

ADMIT DEFEAT!

Some of also use digital drafting tablets.  My stuff is done entirely in the computer. I use photoshop for characters and detailing and Painter for doing backgrounds.

Well, what I mean is you need some kind of collision detection for interacting with things.  If you still need to point and click with a mouse to interact, using the keyboard to walk is a waste.  I'm assuming you would have an action key or keys which you would press.  If the character were standing over a hotspot when the key was pressed, your interaction would occur.  Right now, hotspots detect the mouse cursor, not the character.

I'm new to this too, and could be wrong, but that's the impression I get.  You need a way to track when the character is within a hotspot.

I played with the script for a bit, but I'm unsure of its usefulness without being paired with a collision detection system.

Wow.  Great work.  It really is an easy interface to grasp.  If it's easy to code for as wel, I may have to steal it.  MWA-HA-HA!  MWA-HA-HA-HA!

I really like what you're saying.  What I'm trying to do is narrow my focus so I can make a game using myself as an audience.  

See, I liked the challenging puzzles back in the day too.  But I don't have time to play those out now.  I need to sleep and work, etc.  Therefore easier puzzles would allow me to play through the game better on my schedule.  WHat can I do to increase the payoff so I still feel satisfied for playing through the game rather than "oh I'm so clever I solved those puzzles"?

Mainly, interactivity and animations and such.  I CAN provide that easier than I can provide innovative and challengin puzzle design (I'm an artist).

*Ideal* as in perfect for all gamers who enjoy the genre isn't what I'm shooting for.  I'm shooting for myself as the ideal gamer.  

Maybe I'll be the one to put out a game as nice looking and stylish as Full Throttle.  I hope so (minus the voice acting.  That's pushing it).  

So maybe manifesto wasn't the right word.  I'm not making a call to arms for others to follow, I'm just throwing some ideas out there on what it would take to satisfy me as a gamer.  I'm actually kind of circumventing too, because I'd like to think I'd want challenging puzzles and hours upon hours of epic gameplay.  But I don't have the time to do it.

I love CRPGs too, but I have yet to finish one upon becoming 16 and having to work for a living.  So how do you re-create the FLAVOR of an old adventure, while trimming it down and not making it too challenging to plow through in a couple of days?

._./ hi

Here's a thought: You can't build a reputation on what you're going to do.

I absolutely agree.  I just felt I should respond to the implication that I was unworthy of respect or that I was doing things wrong by wanting to charge for a game.  

It's certainly no sweat off anyone here if I'm full of crap and don't deliver anything.  My original intent for the thread has kind of been side-tracked and for that, I apologize.

I don't want to start a flame over whether it's right to charge for games or whatever.  If someone wants to put out a professional quality game and give it away, great.  If someone wants to put out an awful game and charge for it, great (commercial publishers do it all the time).

As far as paying CJ 75 cents for every dollar I make, I would, if that was required, but he specifically gives it away royalty free.  That's his choice to make.  

As a final statement on the topic of whether charging is fair or right or whatever, I don't think giving away your efforts for free makes you worthy of respect, nor does charging for your efforts make you unworthy.  

The example minimi made, you said you'd be willing to pay for top-quality work.  That's my point.  If there is a market out there for adventure games (and I think there is) the only way to get professional developers into it is if there is financial sense in doing so.  I want to see if there is.  I'm not all about profit and getting rich off my games.  That's not the point for me, but I do want to make it worth my while to work on these games rather than another of my lucrative hobbies.

Saying you're willing to pay for something only if the creator is willing to refuse your money and give it to you for free is kind of hypocritical.  Saying that's the only way to be respectable about it is almost insulting if taken the wrong way.

Just because I intend to charge a wee amount for my game, I'm still going to give back to the community.  I'll share artwork and tips and participate in discussions about coding, etc.  Wanting to make a hobby worthwhile financially isn't wrong, and shouldn't be discouraged.

the way i view it is; AGS is for making games, not money

I'm not making money off AGS.  I hope to make money off the game I create with it.  AGS enables me to do that easily (I'm no programmer) and its creator allows me to charge for my game if I want to.

The phrase "You get what you pay for" holds true.  An amateur developer working for no money is only going to take the game so far.  Apprentice is a good example.  THat's top notch, but if those guys could make a little bit of money, imagine what they could produce.

There will still be free games, but I want to make something good enough to charge for.

didnt paypal get sued for not giving some people their dough? sounds kinda risky. I avoid it. heres what I do
to folks in the state of Ohio, where I do most of my bussiness, I sell CD's with a ton of stuff on them, all the bob's quests, TGC demos, unrealeased AGS stuff, and throw in some behind teh sences and walkthrus and stuff. I charge 5$

I don't know about PayPal suits, most of their deal about freezing people's funds had to do with fraud investigation.  I've been using them for other things for almost 3 years now and never had a problem.

For people who dont live in Ohio, (AGSers mostly) or people with uber-good internet, I offer the games for download, free. They just dont get the goodies. I think this is the best way to make money in AGS. (at least for me  anyways, cause my games arent exactly the best...and certainly couldnt turn a profit among game makers) I thrive off the novelty-factor I suppose...kids going, "wow! you make games! cool! I'll pay 5 bucks". Im not trying to make a ton of cash..it really just helps me keep focused, and it helps with my job's salary to pay for uni. ( I hope to pay for books for via my games)

good luck with your idea, I hope it works for you!

YOu idea's good too, but more of a hassle than I want to deal with.  I'm out of school and work 50+ hrs a week.  I don't want to do order fulfillment.

I'll let you know if it does work.

Ohw man!! If you are busy creating the best your capable of, I suggest you go offline man!! All these replys not even 30min from eachother. How will your game ever be completed if you check twice in an hour the fora well... not that I'm never here, but I never said I'd do 100% my effort to make a game, because if I said that, I woulda quit school, and I know that's not worth it, because all you have to do is add some naked scenes in your game, and people love it

Heh heh.  I'll have to add that to my manifesto.  Plus, I am working my game.  I MULTITASK!

I'll admit I actually *like* to be challenged in a game, but only if the solution is possible to work out without a walkthrough, and if the reward is sufficient. I quite liked it when an adventure game was a little bit tricky. When I played SoMI (my first ever adventure game) when I was very young, I spent a fair bit of time on Melée Island, very gradually working through the puzzles. That made it seem a huge payoff for all that puzzling when I got a brand new environment in Part II, and then Part III after that.

Nowadays it's true you might not be 'stuck' for more than 10 minutes before you're tempted to a walkthrough on the Net, but I think it's one of the most satisfying things about adventure games when you overcome a slightly tricky puzzle without help, AND there's a reward there (as you touched on in point 2). Obviously I don't mean REALLY tricky, like some of the Discworld puzzles, but just ones that push you a bit.

Otherwise I think you can end up with Full Throttle - it's a great story and really cinematic, but it becomes like watching a film, because the puzzles are really easy. As an adventure game it's really flawed. I finished it in a few days. At 10 years old, having eagerly paid 40 quid of hard-earned pocket money for it (after DoTT and Sam And Max, it had to be worth it!) the week it came out, I was a bit gutted. It was fun, but all over too soon, with no replay value. With free AGS games most of us don't have to worry about dissatisfied paying customers, but it's a consideration if you want a game to feel like a real adventure. Yeah, the old-skool games sometimes took no prisoners - I always though the SoMI 'How to get ahead in Navigating' leaflet puzzle was pretty hard to solve yourself (rather than using trial-and-error), but it's a happy medium that you have to aim for. Most of the time they got it right in the old days, IMO.

That's what I'm getting at.  Personally, I don't have time to dedicate working out lengthy challenging puzzles.  I want the same feel, and I'm betting you can give someone a satisfying adventure experience without twisting up their brain.  How disappointed would you have been with Full Throttle if it'd been shorter and more focused (without the motorcycle riding which was dumb to include) and only cost a Dollar?  I bet you'd have liked it a LOT more.

If you wanted to mail me a dollar, I'd be happy to send you the link for your download.  In fact, that way paypal doesn't get their cut.  

Yeah, they don't deserve a cut for a service they could easily provide for free.

Actually PayPal has massive overhead costs with handling the amount of transactions they do.  It would be impossible to provide the service they provide for free, and they currently are they only servecie that just takes money out of your payments, rather than charging you on top of that.

So in a way it kind of is free.  I can recieve credit card payments for anything through them and have them sent directly to my bank account, or get a card that uses my PayPal account like a debit account, at no cost tome whatsoever.

Pretty sweet deal.  They deserve their cut.

is this a sign of things to come? everyone wanting people to pay for their game?

i think people are only going to pay for a game if it is of high quality and not just because the person that made it wants to make some money...

what if the people that want to play it don't have a credit/debit card?

That's what I'm getting at.  I'm not going to make something of low quality.  I'm going to spend my time making the best game I possibly can, and I do want to be rewarded for it beyond a pat on the back.  Now, I'm not asking for top dollar either.  It's only a dollar.  For the price of a soda and a bag of chips, you can download a game that I worked for a couple of months on.

If I only wanted to make some money, I'd do something besides make adventure games, believe me.

If you don't have a credit or debit card, then I suppose you can't buy the game.  If you wanted to mail me a dollar, I'd be happy to send you the link for your download.  In fact, that way paypal doesn't get their cut.  

I'm not sure what your gripe is.  I don't think I owe my efforts to anyone for free.  I'm giving away an intro and a demo to show you what I'm going to be presenting.  If you'd rather have the soda and chips, by all means do so.

So I've hit that age where I'm getting nostalgic for games I played "back in the day" and wishing that the genre hadn't up and died.  So, like most of you, I've decided to go ahead and make my own game.  While doing so however, I've made a few design decisions based on an examination of myself as a target audience.  I thought I'd share them and see where people agree/disagree.

1. I remember challenging puzzles that required all manner of lateral thinking and hours of trial and error to solve pre-internet before I could just look up the answer.  Now, I don't have the time to play it out anymore, and with the info at my fingertips, I'm more likely to just google it if I'm minorly stumped.  So, goal number one, make it easier to solve the puzzle than it it is to just look it up.  The way I intend to do this is to make the puzzle respond well to any attempts to solve it.  Give hints, and have at least two methods of solving every puzzle.  Judging from my own experience, I'm not really going to care if the puzzle is too easy if I get a decent reward for solving it.  That leads us to:

2. Rewards for Effort - I intend to reward efforts to interact with the game with multimedia rewards, sounds, animations, etc. in addition to raising your score and completing the game.  I'd like to the design the games to have some degree of replay value, and challenge for those who want it.  I intend to have a total score of say 100.  You can finish the game with a score of 50.  All the rest of the points are rewarded for extra interactions not necessary to completing the episode.  Just getting the high score isn't enough of a reward, so there will be unique animations and puzzles, possibly even hidden items and locations for the dedicated gamer who HAS to get all the points.  Thanks to Apprentice's bonus puzzle for giving me this idea.

3. Integration of puzzles with the story is a good way to both keep the game internally consistant, and have them not require insane leaps of logic to solve.  The puzzles should advance the plot, not hinder the advancement of the plot.

4. So, tying in with availablity of time for games with work and living and such, I'd like to make my games in serialized episodes.  Bite-sized chapters that when played in sequence would make a complete game experience.  Obviously, this will compartmentalize things somewhat, in that you will probably close off the earlier areas of the game from the later areas, rather than having the whole to explore.  However, this isn't uncommon in adventure games anyway.  The episodic nature will allow people to play only as much as they want, when they have the time to do so.  

So, in closing, keep it short, keep it entertaining and responsive to every interaction, and make the puzzles ADVANCE the plot of the story rather than being obstacles to the advancement.  The game's solution should come naturally during the process of playing it, rather than needing to reference some outside hints.  If the player has the items to solve the puzzle at hand, the solution should be clear.

ANyway, this isn't so much a criticism of games out there, but more of a development diary I can reference as I progress.  To me, if I accomplish these goals and end up with something aesthetically pleasing and fun to experience, I'll have met my goal.  Thoughts, likes, dislikes, comments and arguments welcome.

Like I said before, I'm not going to bother encrypting the game or anything.  If people trade it over Kazaa or whatever, I'm not really going to be able to stop it.  

Besides that, it may actually work to my advantage if those people end up buying the deluxe version, which will be mailed on a disc.

If it turns out no one buys it, but everyone seems to have played it, it just won't be worth my effort to make games, as I already make a good bit of money doing freelance illustration.

My mortgage doesn't depend on this business model.  It's mainly just a step above asking for donations.  What's a dollar compared to a couple of hours of entertaining gameplay, and some good backgrounds, animations and jokes?

Outside of that, maybe I'll establish a workable model by which professional quality adventure games can re-enter the marketplace.

Mind you it'll be on a smaller scale, but if someone's willing to buy it, someone else is willing to make it.

And with paypal, I'm not investing a whole lot into recieving payments or fulfillment or anything like that.  It's more of an experiment really, and something good may come of it.

Well, the way I am, I'm not going to put something out there of lower quality than I'm capable of.  And the way I'm going to set the site up, It won't be highly secure or anything, but shame on you if you have to steal something that only costs a dollar, you know?

Absolutely.  And by keeping the games about the size of most demos, I keep my workload small, and I don't need to spend a year or more developing something I 'd have to sell for Double-digit dollar amounts to break even.

I invest my time, have a fun hobby, and hopefully get some beer money at first, then make a nice profit with the deluxe versions if the experiment is successful.

I know the idea of episodes is not new, but the split that I've seen here is full game commercial release, or give the whole thing away for free.  There's a middle path here that I think people are missing.