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http://www.deirdrakiai.com/

Eh, I just use Opera.

My memory space is filled with digits of pi...

It's difficult to support the assertion that all people who don't believe in God also don't have any morals. This can be proven wrong with a counterexample. I think it is unfair to say that Eric has no morals; over the six years or so I've known him over the Internet, I've always found him to be a really nice guy with a cute sense of humour. I highly doubt he'd ever kill anyone, or molest children, or anything extreme like that... and that requires morals.

What would be a more accurate statement to make would be that people who don't believe in God don't have all of the same morals as people who do believe in God. After all, there's a subset of morals that only really apply to those who have a worldview that involves God, including, but not limited to, faith and obedience.

Excellent insights, Ginny!

Questioning is good. If it doesn't make you change your beliefs into what makes more sense, it'll surely end up strengthening your existing beliefs. I find that those who have rarely or never questioned their beliefs tend to have weak arguments supporting them, causing me not to take them seriously. This applies to non-religious people as well as religious people, of course.

In agreement with almost everyone else, the first is my favourite.

The whole concept kind of reminds me of stripcreator.com, where you take various characters from existing comic strips and put them together to make your own. Ah... those were good times...

I see your point in allowing sins and doing bad things, as a contrast to doing good things out of free will. As a test, it's a lot more useful to weed out the bad apples. But concerning that select few Christians who keep on going "the world is doomed, you've forsaken Christ!", I keep wondering what it is that's brought them that far. I mean, they believe in a God that's all-mighty, infallible and kind. If He truly is out there, he wouldn't allow the world to turn to shit without having some bigger plan, would He? So if that's true, why have they lost faith in that? Why're they talking about everything going bad, and from that doing detrimental deeds (that have wasted a lot of credibility of the faith. Think televangelists) if they're supposed to believe in Heaven and God and all that encompasses?

Ah. Well, many Christians are waiting for the return of Christ, AKA Judgement Day, and many still believe that it will happen literally according to what the Bible said would happen (i.e. a trumpet blast heard by the whole world, and Jesus coming through the clouds, and all the Christians getting to go to heaven and the heathens left to burn in hell). The thing is, that's scientifically impossible, and anyone with a rational mind would agree that true science and true religion should not conflict. Delving into my personal beliefs, I think the Christians are waiting for something that's already come and gone a couple of times, but in a way that no one really expected. A popular analogy used is that of a thief in the night, who most people don't realise has been there until he's already come and gone.

In short, I actually do still think that there's a bigger plan in store for us. The world is changing and maturing. Some liken it to the maturation of an individual human being; millenia ago, humanity was in a state of childhood, but over the past few centuries, as we've made scientific discoveries and learned that God and heaven aren't fairytales who live up in the sky, we've been going through adolescence. And as anyone who's been a teenager would know, adolescence, by default, is filled with a lot of turmoil and strife; you start rejecting your parents and wanting to assert your independence, and get yourselves into all sorts of trouble, but in the end, it's all a part of growing up. The same is happening in our world today; there's a lot of pain and suffering, but in the end, it'll bring us on the road to adulthood.

Once again, I admire the reasonable discussions we're having. Keep them coming, people! (And while we're at it, I'd really like to know whether rharpe honestly thinks I hate morality...)

I would also get rid of all Rob Schneider movies.

Good. Goooood. While you're at it, get rid of all Adam Sandler movies as well, except for maybe the Wedding Singer and Anger Management.

Aetheism [sic] is in because it's cool not being "told what to do."

Actually, atheism stopped being "in" at the end of the twentieth century. "Spiritual but not religious" seems to be the new trend these days.

And if God is so great, how come there's a shitload of stuff that should be done but isn't being done, as I demonstrated?

I think Stranger discussed and showed a good point of view on why this is done earlier in the thread.

Thank you! Now there'll be no need for me to repeat myself... will there?

What I was trying to say with that specific paragraph was that God isn't as infallible as we're told.

How do you define infallibility? I, personally, think that God is infallible. He could make all the problems of the world disappear if He really wanted to. However, He doesn't, because doing so would be detrimental to our growth as human beings. Doing good things out of free will, after all, means a lot more than doing good things because you're being forced to. That's what I was trying to get at.

I agree with a lot of what you just said, by the way.

Everyone calm down. This is not a debate but a post for me to share something I felt I could agree with myself. My initial intention was for all of you to write down what you would do if you were the Devil... (in the same format/style as Mr. Harvey.) This debate came like wildfire because many people here are hostile towards morality in general. Then religion is tagged on, rharpe's an extremist, blah, blah, blah!!!

You never mentioned the goal of your post originally, hence the confusion. And I'm totally not hostile toward morality... am I?

That being said, if I were the devil (assuming that the devil existed) I'd outlaw all genres of music except disco. There, happy?

I think the main point here is the title of Mr. Harper's piece.

Mr. Harper? The new Prime Minister of Canada?

If God hadn't intended us to sin, we wouldn't even consider sinning... God is a perverse character, who punishes those he loves the most for things he allowed them to do in the first place, and is letting one of his ex-disciples take over humanity's world without lifting a single finger.

So, what would you rather have, a God who hands us everything on a silver platter, without making us work for it? A perfect world where everyone's happy and nothing bad ever happens to anyone for any reason? If that were to happen, then what would we learn? How would we grow as human beings?

This whole debate is ridiculous. Ã, What are we arguing about?

I've said it before and I'll say it again: I'm having a great time. This debate is not ridiculous. It is interesting. I'm learning a lot from what people have been saying in this thread and others, and I hope people are learning something from what I have to say. A lot of people here only care about being right. I don't. I like to debate because it gives me a chance to test the strengths of my beliefs about the world and change them if necessary. I honestly don't understand why you people are getting so annoyed.

Not every christian is forceful and crazy though guys, most of the ones I know really try to respect other opinions, in fact most of the time when people find out that I am religious it opens me up to ridicule and arguements.

Ironically enough, I often feel that telling people I'm religious is as nerve-wracking as coming out of the closet. I'd even go so far as to say that being gay, these days, is more accepted than being religious, especially if you're a university student living in a rather liberal area of the world.

P.S. Why's everyone debating rharpe on this? Don't you know already he's stark raving bonkers? Rharpe, we get it. You love Jesus and hate the devil. Now be quiet and let us heathens get back to our jizz-tacular orgies!

I don't think he's stark raving bonkers. Some of the points he makes are valid. Free speech isn't limited to liberal-minded people, after all.

Who said anything about a debate. Everyone knows where I stand on these issues... there really is nothing to debate.

There isn't? Well, poo.

What about discussions? Can we have discussions?

I'm a Cakewalk kind of girl.

Nah, he probably went to hell, in an ironic twist of events.

What I find wrong with religion (and not God) is that it's old... I think I've said it elsewhere, but still society goes on and religion should go on along. Otherwise this is what you get.

Question: Do we have anybody in these forums that don't believe in God, the christian way, but believe in Bhuda or Allah or whatever. Cause Iwould be very interested to hear his opinion on Pauls , truly close minded, broadcast while abusing the power of the internet and the power of his own name...

Well, I'm a Baha'i. Does that count? (I believe in God and am not Christian; however, I believe that the Judeo-Christian God, Allah, Buddha, and what have you are one and the same, and that different religions were revealed at different times according to the needs of humanity at said times.)

In any case, here's what I think:

"If I Were The Devil" by Paul Harvey

First of all, let me clarify that I think of such concepts as "Hell" and "The Devil" in a strictly metaphorical sense; in other words, they represent such things as feeling far away from God and suffering the consequences of one's actions. General unhappiness. That sort of thing.

I would gain control of the most powerful nation in the world;

Personally, it bothers me how power has historically been the most important value that our society strives toward. What about cooperation? Unity? Peace? Also, I don't believe in nations and all that crap. A common Baha'i quote is "the Earth is but one country, and mankind its citizens", which I wholeheartedly agree with.

I would delude their minds into thinking that they had come from man's effort, instead of God's blessings;

This is a half-truth. I believe that God has blessed us with the ability to do and create extraordinary things. However, actually using this ability requires that we exercise it, rather than sit around and expect that God will magically do great things for us.

I would promote an attitude of loving things and using people, instead of the other way around;

I agree with this.

I would dupe entire states into relying on gambling for their state revenue;

The point is not to stop gambling. Along with power, money is another thing that's overrated in our society. If we stop wanting material prosperity above all other things, then we will stop gambling, simple as that.

I would convince people that character is not an issue when it comes to leadership;

Again, I bring it back to the whole want for power. Still, character is important when dealing with anyone.

I would make it legal to take the life of unborn babies;

Again, a Band-Aid solution to a much bigger problem. It's not the abortions we should be concerned about, but the fact that people are having sex way too early and are way too uneducated about its consequences.

I would make it socially acceptable to take one's own life, and invent machines to make it convenient;

We should be working to make the world a better place to live in so that no one will feel the need to commit suicide.

I would cheapen human life as much as possible so that life of animals are valued more than human beings;

Ha! Tell that to an animal rights activist, why don't you?

I would take God out of the schools, where even the mention of His name was grounds for a lawsuit;

What use is belief in God if it is forced upon another person? Belief in God is much more effective and useful to the human soul if it is a personal choice.

I would come up with drugs that sedate the mind and target the young, and I would get sports heroes to advertise them;

I'm against the consumption of alcohol and drugs, and think that the world would be a much better place if they didn't exist. I guess this means I agree with this particular point.

I would get control of the media, so that every night I could pollute the minds of every family member for my agenda;

I'm not very happy with many of the things that the media promotes. However, I wouldn't say that its messages are the product of one person or organization trying to hoist its agenda upon innocent people; they are, instead, a reflection of the values our society has collectively accepted over the centuries. If the world as a whole changes, then the media will change as well.

I would attack then family, the backbone of any nation. I would make divorce acceptable and easy, even fashionable. If the family crumbles, so does the nation;

I think families are important. I don't think divorces should be made easy; I think marriages should be made harder to get into. That being said, the Leave It To Beaver ideal of a family isn't all that great either. It's a bit too patriarchal for my tastes, and I believe in the equality of men and women.

I would compel people to express their most depraved fantasies on canvas and movies screens, and I would call it art;

Again, the media is a reflection of the society we live in. The fact that art is depraved signifies that our society is depraved.

I would convince the world that people are born homosexuals, and that their lifestyles should be accepted and marveled;

I have issues with homosexuality being considered genetic; genes have little if any effect on behaviour. I have even more issues with the concept of a fixed, inborn sexuality; recent studies and past experiences seem to suggest to me that sexuality is more of a fluid, dynamic thing. Furthermore, I have issues with the concept of "the homosexual" (or "the heterosexual") as a specific type of person; contrary to popular belief, this sort of reasoning is very recent, coming into being in the 18th century at a time when the scientific community took an obsessive interest in abnormal sexual behaviour and sought to categorize it. Before that, sex was seen as merely an act, and didn't seem to define you as a person the way it does now. (I could talk about this subject all day if anyone was interested, but I probably should get back to the point at hand...)

That being said, I am completely against being prejudiced against homosexuals. Then again, I'm also completely against prejudice against ANYONE.

I would convince the people that right and wrong are determined by a few who call themselves authorities and refer to their agendas as politically correct;

It is unfortunate that many religious leaders are not concerned about the well-being of the human race, but about having power and influence over others. That being said, it doesn't mean that all morality should be thrown out the window.

I would persuade people that the church is irrelevant and out of date, the Bible is for the naive:

Out of date, well, yes. Christianity was started two thousand years ago. Many of its teachings were specifically targeted for people who lived two thousand years ago. Our world is a dynamic and ever-evolving one; why should we expect that everything that was applicable to humanity two thousand years ago is applicable to us now? When you reach adolescence, do you have the same privileges and responsibilities as you did when you were a child? When you reach adulthood, are you not governed by a different set of laws than you were as an adolescent?

The Christians among you might recall that God promised Abraham that He would never leave Man alone. In this case, it simply doesn't make sense that God would send a Messenger once and forget about us. Even Christ Himself said that He would return. (Personally, I believe that He already has, but still, that's up to each and every individual to decide on his or her own.)

That being said, the Bible is not necessarily naive. Much of what Jesus had to say still applies today; we should still try our best to love one another, after all. The problem of naivety, I find, tends to come when we people read the Bible in a literal sense, rather than in an allegorical sense.

I would dull the minds of Christians, and make them believe that prayer is not important, and that faithfulness and obedience are optional;

Prayer IS important. So is faithfulness and obedience. If they are forced on a person, however, they are utterly useless.

I GUESS I WOULD LEAVE THINGS PRETTY MUCH THE WAY THEY ARE!

Okay, I get it. The world we live in today leaves much to be desired. I agree completely. But could you please stop yelling? It's making my head hurt.

It would just be bible quotes, which I'm sure you know... And that's no way to have a discussion...

The problem is not Bible quotes. Bible quotes can be very useful in discussions at times. The real problem here is refusing to listen.

I just wish the fundamentalists would reply to the points just addressed...

So if you can be reincarnated are you afraid of dying? Are you sad when someone dies?

It seems as though no matter what happens, death is more sad for the people still living than for the person who died.

I thought deja-vu was a glitch in the Matrix...

I'm still waiting for there to be genetically-modified miniature elephants so I could keep one as a pet.

http://p098.ezboard.com/bdosuserforums is still working...

And if you can't find what you're looking for, then archive.org is your friend!