Messages

Start out small and move on to bigger things, eh? Given that that seems to be EXACTLY how AGS itself has been developed, I'm not surprised at all. And mind you, it's not a bad philosophy in the least. It's made AGS popular, and admittedly, there's much we can learn from you all.

I dunno... it just seemed to me like the original poster, having already created a game, might just have been ready to start a more ambitious project. In that case, I thought that maybe finding an "epic" idea he liked enough to stick with rather than force himself to limit himself may have been another option.

Still, I completely understand what you all mean by really ambitious projects that never get finished. (I mean, I was part of the SCRAMM community once!) I find that I'm the kind of person who sticks with an idea to the end, though, and it may be that I'm more motivated than the average person. (not that I mean to gloat or anything) A lot of SLUDGE developers are like that too; though it was pointed out that a lot of projects that were started two or three years ago and had working demos and everything are now dead. Heh. Again, I think AGSers might be on to something.

Really, though, I'm still a huge "quality over quantity" person (even though "quality" is a VERY subjective word). I think the key really is to know one's own limits and make the best of them. (Admittedly, though, most n00bs don't know their limits and think they can do anything, in which case they should probably be sent to http://www.sloperama.com/advice.html)

Anyway... Eric, you think your company'll still be around in two and a half years, when I graduate? Truly, working on GBA games with small teams does sound quite tantalizing. Might be better than being just another drone at EA or whatever, in any case.

I saw that over at Ron Gilbert's blog, and found it quite amusing that the reply on top was by a 16-year-old who argued that "games are art because they're part of a multi-billion-dollar industry".

My personal opinion stands, though: anyone who thinks games are not art have obviously never played The Neverhood. (no pun intended)

[one]

I suppose I should clarify: I didn't intend to say that making a big game was better than making a little game; I just wanted to say that if you DON'T want to make a small game, you don't necessarily have to... if you have the perseverence, time, and energy to make a big game, that is.

Personally, after I'm done the game I'm currently working on, I hope to do some much smaller projects. I'm becoming busier and busier, after all.

Yes, but there is always a simple problem that one must face: The sheer fact that most of the times he can't handle all aspects of the game alone. I mean it is rather rare to be able to take care all aspects of a game, in a non amatuerish way, all by yourself. I don't know if this is what you did with your game, but still I cannot expect anyone to be able to handle graphics and music at the same time, in a "quality" leve, but also be able to script and write stories and come up with puzzles.

Depends on your definition of "quality". To me, it means "the absolute best you can do". My graphics and music certainly don't rival that of, say, CMI, but they don't look like crap, either.

I dare to say that I've seen small free games that are of equal quality to the ones I pay for. If you can produce a quality big game, then it is a sin not to try. It depends on how much time you are able and willing to sacrifice for this project. If you devote more time than real life issues allow you, then the game should go commercial and then it would have to be a really good game. And there must be a reason I 'm not working in professional game development...

On the other hand, this would limit game making and make it accessible only to professionals, or people with adequate professional support. Have you ever considered amateur game making as a way to use some of the brainpower and energy that would otherwise get wasted in real life?

I do, actually. I plan on working professionally in the game industry not too far in the future. However, the way it is structured right now, when a game is made, it's a bunch of specialists doing one specific thing, rather than having one or two people do a little bit of everything. I'm in the process of getting my computer science degree; therefore, when I'm working in the industry, I'll mainly be writing code. I like writing code and all, but I also like to make up stories, draw, and write music as a hobby. Amateur adventure game development is my avenue for combining these interests in a way that I'd never be able to in a professional setting... at least not until I've had several years of experience and made my way up to more than an entry-level position, that is.

I don't mean to say that all games should be made at a professional level. I do mean to say that everyone should aspire to make the best game they possibly can. Of course, that also means knowing one's limits. Still, it also doesn't mean limiting oneself for the sake of limiting oneself.

Hmm...

It seems as though many of us other adventure game development communities have that same problem. I can only really speak for the SLUDGE community, but I'd wager that the reason there are so few finished games (Cubert Badbone, Out of Order, and Nathan's Second Chance... see, I can count them all on one hand!) is because our engine tends to attract a larger percentage of ambitious perfectionists than AGS does. There's Bad Timing, which is HUGE by the looks of things, has been in development for ages, but is still being worked on. We've also got a guy who's making an even HUGER game, and apparently includes all of Plato's Dialogues (or something), and he doesn't even expect to release his game in full until 2010 or so, even after steadily working on it. And then there's the game I'm making, which I've originally planned as ambitious enough to make money off of (after all, I've got multiple story paths and a handful of minigames), but has since been whittled down somewhat and is definitely going to be freeware.

The point I'm trying to get at is that, well, if you're that ambitious, then obviously it'll take a long time to make a game. Two to three years on average, by the looks of things. So, it's okay to spend a whole summer making a game, and it's okay for it to have more than fifteen rooms. Correct me if I'm wrong, but here in AGS Land, there seems to be an overwhelming desire to make lots and lots of small games rather than working really really hard on big games. That's all well and good, mind you, since it gives AGS a LOT more visibility than the other engines, but it does also seem as though there's a disproportionate number of games with a campy, amateurish feel to them (not that that's a BAD thing). What I'm saying is that it's okay to not want to write a smaller game. Write a big game. Make it the best game you can possibly make.

The trick in doing this is to come up with an idea that you like SO MUCH that you'll never get tired of it. It's hard, yes, but it's possible. And if the work you've done on a game isn't your best work, it's okay to scrap it and start all over again. I did that with Cubert Badbone, because truly, I can't stand continuing to work on something I'm not proud of. And I finished it, and by the time I did, it was perfect, I was satisfied, and even though I only had one game to my name after years in the AD scene, it gained widespread recognition. I still get e-mails to this day from people telling me how much they enjoyed Cubert, and it's over three years old.

(By the way, by "big game", I don't necessarily mean "long game". A big game could take only half an hour to complete, and yet take a long time to finish making because it has really time-consuming graphics and music, as well as complex puzzles.)

Hehe, I use Trillian too. I only use my MSN and AIM accounts on it, because like I said, everyone uses those anyway. I haven't signed into my ICQ account in a LONG time...

Joseph, would porting any of my existing games to AGS really make a difference? Feature-wise, SLUDGE and AGS are just about equal; I probably wouldn't end up adding anything extra except... footstep sounds, maybe? Also, I'd still be reaching the same audiences; both engines are made for Windows, of course, and AGS has a Linux engine while SLUDGE runs perfectly in WINE.

I conclude that Cubert Badbone would be too much effort, and TGTTPOACS would be even more so, considering that I'm not even done the SLUDGE version - which requires a lot of crazy scripting as it is. If I were to port something, it would probably be The Interview (TGTTPOACS's demo); however, I'm not a big fan of reinventing the wheel. If I ever have time to try out AGS, I'll make a whole 'nother game with it. And considering how long I take to do things and how much of a perfectionist I am, it would probably have to be a pretty darn short game.

ProgZMax, SLUDGE doesn't have hardware acceleration support (at least not that I know of). You might be thinking of WME or AGAST. However, despite that, SLUDGE does have a really fast, clean feel to it, which I've always liked.

That's right, Helm. I did call AGS ugly, but that was back when it WAS ugly. Now, it's not ugly at all. In fact, it's kind of pretty.

And yeah, we probably were talking on ICQ. Oh man, I haven't used that in ages. Everyone's either on MSN or AIM nowadays...

Fair enough, doppelganger. I'm twenty and have been using the name since I was... *thinks* ...thirteen, meaning that if we consider all things outside Adventure Game Development Land, you predate me.

I got the name from the EXACT SAME PLACE, too. The actual dialogue option was "Call me Squinky." (which I know because I used the phrase as an e-mail address at some point) And then you could say "Actually, my name is Guybrush Threepwood." and then the lookout said something along the lines of "What a ridiculous name. It's the only one I've heard that's more ridiculous than Squinky." Oh, how I love you, Monkey Island!

Yup, I was on IRC, albeit mostly in #scramm. That's one of the ways I got to speak to James Slaughter personally, after all.

I did poke my head into #monkey-island a fair bit, though. Mind you, I mostly came on during the time before the other Squinky showed up, which was why I could always secure the name "Squinky". And then one day, I visited #monkey-island after a LONG time, probably post-SCRAMM, only to discover that I couldn't use "Squinky" anymore, because someone had taken it...

Are you SURE about that, Edmundo? (And I think I remember you... you used to be Netmonkey, right?)

Haha, I remember the #monkey-island Squinky. Yeah, it IS a pretty common nickname, which is why I don't always use it anymore. Then again, back in 1999 when I first started using the moniker "Squinky", it was somewhat more unique. Fit my personality quite well, after all.

SLUDGE is teh awesome. Of course, I'm very very biased because it's the only adventure engine I've been using for the past... er... four years is it? But yeah, it's got everything I could possibly want and need in an adventure game engine. Tim Furnish is even coming out with a new version soon that features anti-aliased sprites, which I'm quite looking forward to.

Only downside is, our community's pretty sparse. We don't really attract all that many n00bs, mainly because most of us SLUDGE veterans are too busy working on our games to write tutorials. (Most people seem to flock to AGS because it's the easiest to use, anyway.) Plus, you gotta pay for the full version of SLUDGE, which ends up discouraging a lot of people from even trying it. (Come to think of it, that's the reason I never used the Opera web browser until it became free. The reason I bought SLUDGE in the first place was because I was a beta tester and got a discount, and because circa 2001, it was probably the most advanced adventure engine that existed.) Also, SLUDGE doesn't really have an IDE; you gotta code everything. Some people, myself included, see this as an advantage, but I can understand that a lot of people love their IDEs and would be a teensy bit scared of an all-coding interface.

Anyway... oh man, Mauve. Yeah, I remember that. And Stouth-Rief/The Lugubrious Game, or whatever it was called. Crazy.

Yup, I've always been a part of the adventure game development community. I just tend to have dry spells when it comes to forum posting, is all. These days, I can usually be found at Adventure Developers and the relative inactive SLUDGE forums, and quite rarely on the Adventure Gamers Underground forum. I haven't stopped by here all that much, mainly because I'm not an AGS user, but I do recognize a lot of faces from back in the old days.

Actually, I used SLUDGE for Cubert Badbone, and have been continuing to use it for TGTTPOACS and The Interview. I've never touched MMF in my life... well, actually, I think I may have tried it ONCE, in my search for an engine post-SCRAMM, but that was ages ago.

Yup, I remember BOT/RoBot. I also remember SAGE (which King Super was considering using) and Maker and IndyJava (which I actually tried at some point).

And speaking of WorldMaker, lookie what I found: http://www.2dadventure.com/abstarcia/

Hey everyone. Remember me? The *original* Squinky? Probably not, unless you've been part of the adventure game development scene for a LONG time... or have played my world-famous 2002 hit, Cubert Badbone, P.I.

Anyway, I randomly decided to lurk over from the SLUDGE side, and found this thread. I was actually wondering what happened to all the SCRAMM people a little while ago (after watching Potter's Puppet Pals, and discovering that it was made by Trapezoid, who I remembered from the SCRAMM board... apparently he's some sort of Internet celebrity these days). It was I who posted the infamous splash screenshot of SCRAMM, which everyone thought was photoshopped or something, cementing the popular view that it was fake. (In reality, though, I was in close contact with James Slaughter at one point, and was supposed to be an alpha tester. I'm pretty sure SOME work was done in SCRAMM, but it never got anywhere near alpha mode, most likely because of the overly-ambitious features list...)

But yeah... I had some great times over at that board. I remember when MrColossal was called Brand X and signed his posts with "Long time reader, nth time poster." And there was that Outrageous Evan Courageous guy. And when everyone lost faith in SCRAMM because James Slaughter mysteriously disappeared, someone wrote a parable about people who waited for SCRAMM as opposed to people who started using engines like AGS instead, and it had to do with waiting for the Messiah or something like that. Good times.

I wasn't all that active on the GLUMOL side of things, mainly because by then I'd started tinkering with AGAST. I tried AGS, but it wasn't really my cup of tea. Mind you, this was back when it was completely DOS-based.

Years later, I'm quite impressed at how far AGS has gotten. I'll always be a happy SLUDGE user (seeing as I'm used to it, I have half a game finished in it, I like coding, and I paid for it ages ago), but if I'd gotten introduced to AGS in the state that it is now rather than five years ago, I'd have probably liked it enough to actually use it to make a game.

It's interesting to see that even though SCRAMM and GLUMOL were never made due to their ambitiousness, all the frequently-used adventure game engines of today (AGS, Wintermute, and dear ol' SLUDGE) have feature lists that rise above and beyond what SCRAMM and GLUMOL were supposed to be. There are times when I wish the technology we have today was available all those years ago, and yet, I'm quite certain that had I used my original Cubert Badbone art in a game, it would've scarred people's retinas more than Richard Longhurst and the Box that Ate Time did. (By the way, is Captain Mostly still around?)

Anyway, enough rambling. Back to lurking.

P.S. MrColossal, that guy you mentioned was named WorldMaker.