Messages

I love your modules too Andrew, and your blog... despite the rather bitter comment about DITR.  :

I'll send you a PM soon.

Hello Richy. I might be interested in your proposal, if you told me what exactly you want, in how much time and what  compensation you have in mind. In case you don't know me, I own Atropos Studios, the company that recently released Diamonds in the Rough.

I totally agree about Pleurghburg.

As another maker of a game with poor graphics (I'm mean Other Worlds, as I didn't design the ones in Diamonds in the Rough -thank God-), I agree that there are plenty of people out there who are willing to overlook visuals if the story & puzzles interest them.

Snarky:

Spoiler

Hmm... It's hard to explain my reasoning to someone who hasn't played the game, as you can see it's difficult enough to explain it to the ones that have! First of all, DITR is not technically a "psychic organization". It began as a small foundation that offered scholarships to "children of true American families" as Hungerton put it. As it grew bigger, it focused on politics & propaganda, probably trying to get as many of their people into the White House. Then they started doing scientific researches and at some point they discovered the people who possess these special abilities. They decided to use them as a weapon against the other races. How does that not reflect the dangers of racism in the real world? I'm not sure what the DITR policy was regarding interracial relationships, but I'm confident that they had a plan.

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Spoiler

GG: Short answer, yes. Would you seriously leave the country that you were born and raised in just because some whackos threaten to make you sterile through paranormal means if you don't (with evidence to their claim so poor that James Randi wouldn't lift an eyebrow)?

Al: Actually, the evidence would supposedly be indisputable. The "apparitions" would convince anyone that the DITR people are capable of producing a paranormal weapon (that is why they were chosen as means of communication instead of UPS) and Brown clearly said that any physician would be able to confirm their claims as the list of the women would be made public.

GG: Without knowing the scope of her powers, I still think thousands a day sounds like a lot - the game seemed to suggest that psychic efforts take a lot of energy out of people.

Al: Not true. Quite the opposite really, it is clearly stated that "all Sydelle has to do is dream" and the game never suggests that it's draining in any way.

GG: But surely the final line about her "needing a glass of water" has an element of black humour in it? At least I thought it was a great punchline.

Al: Nope... It wasn't black humor. Think about it again: In the first cutscene, Jason's thought is 'thirst' and in the end he says "I'll be right back, I need a glass of water". In Dr. Brown's paper, it is written that thirst is one of the first symptoms. The phrase was added to point out that Sydelle was going to die.

GG: As soon as a terrorist group - which is what they'd be considered after making their demands - becomes a threat, any means will be used to find it. In this case the FBI would start looking into white supremacy networks, they'll be searching for groups with funding, and unless the organisation has killed everyone they ever came into contact with, names will start to come up. Next thing, assuming they buy into the paranormal stuff, they'll make cross reference between those people and organisations researching psychic phenomena. There MUST be a few talented people that Hungerton has approached which turned down his proposal of being isolated in the middle of nowhere. Even with heavy money laundering and dummy corporations it just doesn't seem possible to build and run a privately owned town without leaving a trace.

Al: Your main argument seems to be that DITR's idea was not a very good plan and that it would never work. So I ask you, what if it wasn't? I don't think it takes out anything from the game. The story is about people who are crazy-mad-racist enough to go with this plan, and a young man who helps them without knowing, and decides to kill himself in the end because his part in it has drained him of all his will power to even try to stop them. There's a reason why I made it a fantasy game; it's more symbolic than realistic and that is on purpose.

Big organizations don't always come up with great plans. Think about it: Microsoft's great idea of making billions of computers more secure was to add an "Are you sure you want to run this program?" dialog line in Vista. And that took them years to come up with. 

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[terrorizing]

This is going to be a HUGE post.

OK here it goes... Let me start by stating that every criticism on DITR is welcome. It is not the negative criticism on DITR that puts me off, Snarky, I just have trouble coping with personal comments. It's hard not to be influenced when some people compare your business to the Nigeria scum or when they are wondering what your mother did to you when you were a child. So, I repeat: "Your game is crap" is acceptable. "You must be really stupid to release such a crap game" is not. Of course, I would have been understandably discouraged if the negative reviews/comments on the game outnumbered the positive ones, but luckily so far this is not the case.

I wrote the story of DITR because I wanted to give life to a complex plot, create something different and daring, and deal with an issue that hasn't been mentioned in any games I had ever played before. I knew that some of the decisions I made would cost me some buyers. If you write something more complex than the average "hero saves princess" of "the butler did it" story, you lose all the people who play it with the walkthrough on their lap and don't waste time paying attention or caring about the characters. If you don't finish your story with a "lived happily ever after" ending, you lose some more. And of course, if you deal with a controversial issue, you lose all those who like their games to be a relaxing experience. But I wanted to try all these things anyway. Because above all, I believe that the key to success when writing a game is to write something YOU would enjoy playing, rather than trying to guess what the public wants.

I was very worried about how people would react after playing my game. Would they understand which side of the fence of the controversial issue I was on? Would they laugh at me for actually writing an Afterword in the end, as if I'm a famous author and my fans were dying to read my thoughts? Would they get mad at the Greek who had the nerve to set this story in the US? Lucky for me, my fears were not confirmed.

Spoiler

GarageGothic

GarageGothic:Jason, the player character's, amazing talent turns out to be... telling black and white women apart! Not by seeing them with a bag over their head or looking at pictures of their clothed booties, but by picking random numbers from a list through paranormal means. I don't know, but this seems overly complicated. Assumably the people who put together the list would easily be able to verify the ethnicity of the members of the sample group? The logical fallacy is that Jason is picking what they already know - how is this helping anyone?

Alkis: I think this is the part you did not understand, and that's what probably ruined the plot for you. I could have explained it in more detail in the game, but I like to leave some things to the player's imagination rather than spell everything out. First of all, his talent is not telling black and white women apart, it's "always making the right choice", at least that is how they see it.

Try to picture this huge organization, with enough resources to do all the things they do in the game. There are many more people involved in it than the ones we see in the game. Obviously, as in every major organization, no major decision can be taken easily; you'll have to convince the people who pay the bills, not to mention the owner (it is NEVER implied that Hungerton owns DITR. In fact, aren't you wondering who he answers to? We aren't told). Now, imagine the first time they discover Sydelle's talent and realize that they can do anything they want from a remote distance without risking exposure. What was their first thought? I bet genocide fell on the table, but was probably dismissed by many of them as they like to kid themselves that they're not murderers, only "purists". Perhaps mass sterilization crossed their minds, but it was still too much. Then someone (maybe Hungerton, maybe Brown, perhaps someone we'll never even meet) thought of the idea terrorizing the public with a threat of mass sterilization. "Leave the country, of your women will never breed". That seemed a little bit more feasible to some... but they still weren't convinced. Maybe some of the "sponsors" were having second thoughts. Until they found Jason and decided to put their idea to test. The way they saw it, this man "always made the right choice". So if this was the right thing to do, he would select the black women without knowing... otherwise he would select random ones or none at all. Does it make more sense now?

GarageGothic:They then tell the chosen numbers to this girl who has the psychic ability to make the women sterile (I'm really not making this shit up) as a sort of poetic justice. Their plan is to make 100 women sterile in a year. They will then send psychic projections to all the news media in the country to tell them this (I guess it's more impressive than using UPS). They make the demands that all negroes must leave the country within a month, or they'll continue their efforts at a daily basis (what, 3-400 more sterile black women a year? I doubt that will even make a mark in the statistics).

Alkis: First of all, I'm surprised you think 100 is a small number to start with. For me, even ONE would be too many. Imagine having a sister and a wife of the right age. Would you risk it? Perhaps they chose that number because some of them (the "sponsors" who are on the fence I mentioned earlier) didn't REALLY want to make women sterile, they just wanted to scare black people enough to leave the country. Second, you're incorrectly assuming that "daily basis" means one woman per day. For all we know, it could be 1000 a day. It could be 10,000.

GarageGothic:But really, if they could convince the rest of America that Jason's list selection skills means that God or whoever wants an Aryan nation, then Uri Geller would be ruling the world.

Alkis: Would you be convinced? Would anyone? They didn't care about convincing people as obviously that is what they had been trying to do since DITR was founded and it simply wasn't fast enough for them.

GarageGothic:Anyhow, Jason asks for some time to think, goes home, connects to the internet through a stolen wireless modem and his boss' password (poor internet security that doesn't check MAC adresses in a town where contact to the outside world is forbidden) and tells his story in a webcast (bloody emo). He's taken a deadly poison, because he can't live with what he's done: "17... 17 women will never bear children... because of me! Because of me!". Nikolas' excellent score plays during all of this, and brings the melodrama up another notch. "Can you hear me! Can you see me!" he says, before losing consciousness...
At the very same moment, there's a knock at the door. It's the psychic infertility girl who was the love interest before betraying you. She leans over him, saying "Don't die!" and Jason, as his last act, kisses the girl, thereby also poisoning her. At this point I couldn't help laughing, it was just all too much. There is certainly a dark comedic element in the writing, but I think my grin was a bit too wide. THIS was the monumental surprise ending that a letter in the game box begged us not to reveal??? All this is followed by an Afterword written by Alkis, where he details his research of racist groups during development. This is very fascinating, but I'm just still sitting there thinking: "That was it? That's the most stupid Evil Plan(tm) I've ever heard. It wouldn't even sound credible in a James Bond movie!"

Alkis: Actually, Jason's last words are "I'm sorry for what I am". And it's not the actual ending I don't want people to reveal, it's DITR's purpose. I'm sorry it made you laugh, it is obvious that in your opinion the concept of the story is ridiculous. Others say it's brilliant. If you ask me, I don't believe it's either but I think it works in a science fiction sort of way.

GarageGothic:Even from a logistical point of view it just wouldn't work. Are you going to have that poor girl sitting around performing paranormal uterectomies all day? Aren't somebody going to locate you sooner or later? Even if the organisation is placed in the middle of nowhere, you can't build a whole town without leaving a paper trail - which any investigator looking into well-funded racist groups would pick up.

Alkis: How would they locate them? They obviously had the financial means to make it look like a legitimate organization. How exactly would a girl "sitting around performing paranormal uterectomies" be easily traced?

GarageGothic:At the end of the afterword, Alkis mentions that some people didn't like the ending. As I read it, some of the beta testers were unhappy that Jason died at the end.

Alkis: I never said anything about the beta testers. I was simply addressing everyone who would buy the game, knowing that some people would want Jason to survive.

GarageGothic:I didn't like the ending because it was plain stupid and all immersion in the melodrama just trickled out during those ten minutes of dialogue with each line more ridiculous than the previous. I'm sorry, but this somehow made M. Night Shyamalan's movies seem almost clever.

Alkis: The dialogs seemed too melodramatic because in my experience that is how these people talk, actually they are much worse in that aspect and I do believe I was very careful to avoid many  cliches. But honestly, the story is about a man who killed himself because he realized he was helping a neo-nazi organization sterilize women, surely the dramatic dialogs in the end are expected?

GarageGothic:With only one other gameplay task to perform before the talkative end sequence rolls, you cannot proceed before picking up the vial of poison. At this point of the story, you don't know the master plan yet and have no use for the poison. But you cannot trigger the final event without picking it up. Obviously you need to get it at some point, because the game is told in flashback, after Jason took the poison. But it certainly could be done in a less artifical manner. The player is bound NOT to want to pick it up knowing the outcome. Also, the game centers around choice, and how Jason has always chosen what others wanted him to chose, even though it may not be - as he says - the universally right choice. Ultimately he DOES make his own choice, what he feels is the right one, to tell his story to the outside world and to end his life. However, at this point the choice is out of the player's hands. We're watching a cutscene robbing us of the essential choice that is interactivity. Wouldn't it have been a much more powerful moment if you found yourself controlling a griefstricken Jason, nervously pacing his apartment with his proverbial back against the wall - and realizing that the only choice possible was to take the poison?

Alkis: I believe it was obvious that Jason needed proper training and stimulation to use his special ability. Otherwise, he would have never joined DITR in the first place.
Some games are made with chapters (like Other Worlds), and some are set in the same environment for the duration of the entire game. The non-linear nature of the latter sometimes forces the creator to make some moves compulsory for the story to go on, so that it's 100% certain that the player will not miss anything crucial. I'm sure you all know what I'm talking about, this is after all an AGS forum and many people have much more experience in creating games than I do. The modem, the vial, the Yellow Phosphorus paper in Brown's computer are all part of this.

Vince Twelve:The only stumble here was that somehow Hungerton, who seemed to understand Jason more than Jason, didn't know that Jason didn't choose the "right" choice but instead the choice that others wanted him to choose.  How did Jason know that, but the people studying him (and telling him what was going on) didn't?[/b]

Alkis: Excellent question. I'm tempted to ask "Why do you think?" but I have learned that it pisses people off. I can offer two possible scenarios: Either Hungerton & Brown knew very well what Jason's special ability was but decided to use him to convince their superiors, or their blind obsession made them disregard that obvious fast and they decided to believe what they wanted to believe.

Vince Twelve:And the deadly kiss with Sydelle, I believe, was purposefully a Romeo and Juliet reference, with the one twist that Jason said he "chose" a kiss.  I think that this was to mean that he was using his power, and therefore the choice he made was what Sydelle wanted.  She wanted to die for her actions.  Which I think was kind of neat if a little cheesy.

Alkis: Again, very well put... And yes, it was a Shakespearean reference and yes it was rather ambitious and cheesy... but I sort of liked it.

Nikolas... This is the first time I hear from you that the game is confusing at parts and the ending is too long.

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I hope I answered some of your points, I'm more than willing to continue the discussion if you have more comments.

Thank you for this thread, I like discussing the story of DITR. I have to go in a few minutes but I will be happy to answer your points/questions later tonight. While I do not disagree with some of the things you said, it seems to me that there are a number of things you missed or misunderstood.

To the people who haven't played the game: even if you have no intention of buying it, I still don't think you should read GarageGothic's spoiler. You never know, it might end up in your hands in the future as part of a collection or a cereal box or something. Any story's ending can sound ridiculous if you read it out of context without any idea about who the characters are and how they are developed. As Nikolas said in another forum, what would you think if someone described the Sixth Sense to you in this way:

Spoiler

A psychiatrist is treating a kid who thinks he sees dead people. It turns out it isn't his imagination, he actually sees them. And guess what? The doctor is dead too!

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More tonight.

OK thanks for letting me know.

In my opinion, I see no compelling reason why the panel would avoid rating commercial games, so by all means rate them.

I agree.

Link to the relevant Adventure Gamers review

I don't understand, are you saying that the rating of DITR is simply a copy/past of the Adventure Gamers grade? If so, what made them choose that particular review and not one of the other 14 that are currently online?

Note that I'm not complaining about the grade or anything, just trying to figure out whether the game was actually played by the people who rated it, or whether they only played the demo, or simply accepted the AG review.

I'm curious, is the rating of Diamonds in the Rough based on the demo or the full game? I'm only asking because if it's the former, I will be happy to give you guys the full game for your review.

It is there now. Thanks to whoever fixed it, it was definitely not there at the time I wrote the post.

  May I ask why it was removed?

As the good reviews continue, I would like to inform you that we're giving away three free copies of Diamonds in the Rough. Click here to enter the contest. Only hurry up because the giveaway will only last a week.

I know... the AG review was the least positive (although not negative) review of the 10 I've read so far.

I'm glad you enjoyed the game Ben. Naturally, the ending is not a very big surprise after you've witnessed

Spoiler

Sydelle's dream

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, it's part of the surprise. And yes, I know all about the problems with the characters, hopefully I'll have a bigger budget to work with in the next game and the animations will be much better.

Thank you for your purchase, Peder. I will gladly sign your copy if you want me to.

EDIT: One more review was announced today. Links to all four reviews can be found in this page.

After Just Adventure and Adventure Advocate (Greek), I'm glad to announce that one more web site hosts a very positive review of Diamonds in the Rough: Four Fat Chicks.

Just a quick note to say that I haven't forgotten about this one. News will be posted soon.

My favorite part of that joke:

As the first registration, I'll send you my very own blue cup in recognition of your contribution

EDIT: Scratch that, I found a better one:

I`d like to complain as when i tried to register the page would`nt let me.....

It just said this.."
Oops!
You have tried something we didn't think of. Whatever it was, it's not necessary to finish the game.
SKY Version 1.04.2004
Page created 1 April 2004. (c) 2004 Chris Jones"

I HAD A SPARE 100 QUID and thought i`d register....

I wonder how many people actually tried to pay.

By the way, I really hope you'll never have anything serious to announce on the April 1sts that will follow... nobody will believe it!