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This may be going a bit overboard, but as long as we're still on the subject.

SSH, I mean no disrespect to you. I don't know you, but what I do know of you from these forums I respect, especially the love and devotion you have for your family. Thus, I'm not trying to be obnoxious or aggressive in this statement. But... Have you fully read both sides of the discussion above? It seems to me that so far everyone has agreed that it is not an idea, but rather a proven historical fact. It is a historical fact, for example, that Constantine was not trying to supplant, but rather assimilate. The feasts that were brought to the church by the "uprooted" pagans were not meant to supplant or usurp, but rather to make the pagans coming to the new state religion feel welcome by taking their symboism and feasts and giving them a decidedly Christian flair. This is the end result of my 10+ year study on the matters at hand, and I did not, as many people do, study it from one perspective. I am no armchair philosopher. This matter was not only available in many Protestant, Catholic, and secular sources, but also was acknowledged by the Roman Catholic priest under whom I studied. And the Protestant minister. And the Jehovah's Witness elders. And the Mormon elders. And the High Priestess of the Saint Louis, MO Wiccan coven, and my brother, who is a high ranking Shinto monk.  It is highly available information, although not always accepted and frequently shelved, along with all the other "dark secrets" that everyone has.

Ã,  Ã, "In This Sign, Conquer..."

Here's the shocker....

I am a Christian. As far as I'm concerned... or as far as the Bible is concerned, I'm a pretty good one, I might add.

My problem is this, and here I might actually be delving into the religious blather that people on forums tend to avoid and disapprove of. Religion is, according to religion itself, bad. Most people don't understand "Hey, I'm going to base my religion on such and such a holy book" means they have to abide by it. Not because that Holy Book or the elders of that religion say so, but because it is only logical, sensible, and fair. Anything else would be like me basing my religion on the Lord of the Rings and proclaiming myself to be the Dark Lord, Samwise Gamgee.

I have a spectacular relationship with God. I know more about theology, the Bible, other religions and cultures, and cults than most people who have been studying all their lives, because I choose to study for myself, and let no man tell me how it should be. After all, "No Scripture is to be of any private interpretation," which in the Greek means specifically "No one man can release the truth of these words." You can go through seminary and get a 100% on every exam, but the truth of the matter is you are only getting 100% on exams made by men who believe a certain way. You can teach a gorilla sign language, but that doesn't mean he understands the English words the sign language is symbolic of.

Now, let me get totally back into the original spirit of this thread.

I am thankful for men like Rharpe, who aren't ashamed to stand up and say what they believe, and who take the lesser trod path of believing the unbelieveable.

I am thankful for myself having gone through the trials of life that have brought me to my current state and standing.

I am thankful for the bad examples of men, who, because fallible, have shown me that you can't believe God by looking at His followers. Men fall. Men are human, and err, for as the adage goes, "To err is human."

I am thankful for life, and for knowledge and wisdom, and for each breath I take, with the understanding that the next might be my last.

I am thankful that I have the understanding of what is right, and wrong, and moral, and ethical. I am very thankful that because of that understanding, I can live a life where I don't have to find happiness by getting drunk or having illicit sex, or being a fool in general like 99% of the populace.

I am thankful to have full use of my capacities, physical and mental, and also spiritual. I am thankful that I see things the way that I see them.

I am thankful that, although I am very unhappy with my current position in life, that I have the skills, and talents, and knowledge, that I do, and that there is bright hope for tomorrow, even though tomorrow is clouded.

Thanks again, Rharpe. I am sorry to have hijacked the thread, seemingly.. It wasn't my intention, but looking back I see that I was kind of forceful with my views. I'll have to remember that to be folly in the future. "A fool speaketh all his mind, but the wise man keepeth it in until later." I appreciate you, and your faith, and in no way mean to make it seem as though I don't. Nor you, YakSpit. Nor anyone else.

And I'm sorry that, in this thread at least, I seem to not be able to limit my thoughts to a more concise length.

PS @ EldKatt: Your right, in everything you said. Most of what I was saying was demonstrative, not imperative. However, in the last part... You're right there, too, but the New Testament says that there is no distinction between Jew and Gentile, and that we are "adopted" into the family of God, which, since God's chosen people are the Jews, means we have ourselves become "Jews." (in theory, of course). Therefore, being an extension of Judaism, we are part of their originality as Christians. Everything that exists outside Christendom and Judaica, ie. that which is Pagan or Heathen, is external, inferior, and is not to be associated with.

[PRE-BANTER WARNING]

PRE-BANTER WARNING
It is not my intent to argue religion. I know that is looked down on by most community members, in most communities, everywhere. Why, I don't know... a good argument on religion is often a very interesting topic, as long as people don't start oozing the unintelligent blatherschyte that their religion is better and their Holy book is true because it says it is, and their elders are speaking ex cathedra because they say they are, and, my personal dis-favorite, "It's all about faith. You can't explain it logically. You just have to believe." Bullshit. If God wrote a whole friggin' book to explain stuff, why do you you want to say it's not understandable? Is it possibly because you lack the intelligence or the self-worth to check up on it and make sure you are trusting your entire life to something that is truthful rather than something that claims to be truthful?

Anyway, like I said, I don't want to discuss any particular religion, and the benefits or detriments thereof. Rharpe was kind enough to open a thread about a religious matter (we've already established that Thanksgiving is in fact a religious holiday, as is clear by Rharpe's initial post) and I have tried my best to maintain the original matter... Thanksgiving... as a religious holiday. You will never hear me say "You must accept Jesus as your Saviour" or "If you walk to Allah he will run to you" or "You must accept the noble truths of Buddha" or "Ia Cthulhu! Ia Shub Niggurath! Ia Yog Sothoth!" (although I am much more likely to say the last). This is not a debate on opinions, but rather a conversation about historical and literary truth. If I am mistaken, or if I interject opinion here and there, it is no different than every single other post on any serious subject in this forum.

end banter. Commence thought.

It's not really my meaning to get into an argument. I was initially pointing out my opinion, which in many public forums is about equal to laying yourself bare for evisceration. However...

http://hem.passagen.se/farila/jultomte-JN2.jpg (forgive the link but for some reason IMG was returning a red x)

Do you mean this Tomte? Dressed in green, with a red hat? Since, Tomte has become synonymous with Santa Claus, and has taken on the modern appearance, dressed in the Coke colors. That was, anyways, a joke.

I had also initially meant to not point this out, but, specifically, the Catholic church (no offense, rharpe) does employ the symbology of these items, in art, advertisement, and music ("O Christmas Tree"... the Christmas tree is also another pagan symbol).

You're very right. They don't pretend to be Christian. But Christians pretend they are (let me rephrase that... certain Christians).

And furthermore, Christianity, and most religions, do indeed claim to have built themselves from scratch, regardless of what the truth may be. As Yak pointed out, there are certain denominations that will preach against a symbol while others will welcome it. The fact of the matter is, each religion claims to be true, and the progenitor of all others, and contains scriptures or holy writings that tell their followers not to be part of other trends or to follow the example of other cultures. Take the Judeo-Christian Scriptures, for instance: almost everything in the Torah was written because the Jews were not supposed to emulate another culture: you couldn't braid your hair or wear clothing of mixed fabrics or get tatoos because these were pagan practices. In fact, Israel was punished by God for wanting a king, because they saw that the lands around them had kings and that seemed to work pretty well for them.

Ã,  Ã, Thus, I do believe there is MUCH import to my arguments.

The problem is that, despite Biblical warnings to not be a friggin' stealer of other people's things (I believe the Bible clearly states not to covet your neighbor's ass) religious groups tend to heavily enjoy the stealination of things. What we today consider "Christianity" is just stealination of stuff. This is my historical timeline of the stealing of things up until the stealing of Thanksgiving.

1) Fourth-century Roman emporer Constantine (not John Constantine, although I know you were thinking it) decides Christianity is becoming a powerful and influential force. He therefore attempts to appease the Christians by making Christianity the state religion. In doing so, all the pagans forced to convert bring with them their gods, godesses, and holidays. The official First Stealination takes place.

2) "Christian" art begins mimicking pagan art. Ever notice that pictures of Saints always show them holding up two fingers, in the same way that earlier paintings and statues of Roman gods are done? The pope even carries a bowed cross-staff, like Hermes, and has the fish-crown of Dagon on his head.

3) "Christian" music begins to steal from the music around them. For some reason, although they've been stealing right along, most churches don't like this particular one, and of all the other things for them not to like, tell people to stop stealing music from the world.

4) As stated above, Samhain, Beltane, Walpurgishnacht, Lughnassadh, Yule, and the Feast of Ishtar become Christian holidays and Saint feasts. As close as they can bloody well get it, births of Sun deities become the Birth of the Son, the day of the resurrection of certain gods picturing the coming of Spring become the day of the resurrection of the Son of God, even though, as stated, this obviously took place three days after passover and is not based on astrology...

5) Symbols from said holidays are stealinated as well. The rabbit that pictures fertility (for obvious reasons) becomes the Easter Bunny, the Jack o' Lantern that once was placed in a home from which a virgin was taken to be sacrificed stays a friggin' jack o' lantern with little to no change, the pagan Holly King become Santa Claus, only in America he's dressed in the colors of Coca Cola...

6) Christians decide to screw the Jews and steal Aryanism itself... Jesus, in every movie he's portrayed in, is a fair skinned blonde, blue-eyed, handsome guy with a british accent.

7) Finally, in the most random act of stealination ever perpetrated since I stole a candy bar that I didn't even like from a local convenience store, Christians take a highly fantisized story about a bunch of people eating and make it a religious holiday several hundred years after the fact. Happy little kiddie books made of plastic that won't get ruined when little Johhny throws up his Thanksgiving turkey all over it picture a bunch of stereotyped Indians and a bunch of black-suited, buckle-hatted pilgrims praying over a stylishly luxurious (and also highly fictional) Thanksgiving feast.

8 ) Coincidentally, Christians also steal the image of these pilgrims as being good Christian people, when in fact they didn't leave their country to get freedom of religion, but freedom from religion. Sure, they all believed in God and the Bible, but they were leaving the suffocation of the Catholic and Anglican churches, which were shoving their own Thanksgiving feasts down their throats. Back in the day, they were considered heretics, but a couple hundred years later their famous dinner with the indians is stolen and made a Christian holiday, and they are pictured as good Catholic people. It kinda reminds me of how Protestants will take Catholic popes and scholars and call them "church fathers," even though back in the day they were trying to escape from their churchly fathership.

So, you see, Yak, Thanksgiving IS a Christian holiday. If it weren't for the Christians, Thanksgiving wouldn't exist. The pilgrims certainly didn't continue the tradition, as you yourself stated.

On the other hand, I have to get aggravated when people turn around and steal them right back. Let's call Thanksgiving "Turkey Day" and Christmas "X-Mas" just because we want to have days where we can be fat bastards and get gifts but don't want to admit we are stealing it from Christians...

Who in turn stole it from Pagans.

 I was just thinking the other day about the worst nightmare I ever had. When I was younger, my older brother used to read me The Hobbit and the Chronicles of Narnia (which, by the way, are so unrelated to this nightmare that it makes little sense as to why I'd even mention it). One night, after the council of Thorin and the seige of the elven armies of Mirkwood and the men of the Lake on Lonely Mountain, I fell asleep, and my brother fell asleep in a chair beside me with the book over his face.

Ã,  Ã, I dreamed that night that a giant mouth... No physical form outside of just the lips, teeth, etc. (in other words, it wasn't a monster with a big mouth, it was simply a giant, disembodied mouth, which if you think about it violates so many laws of nature it isn't funny) came floating through the night sky, backed by the biggest and most threatening Sanguine moon I've ever beheld. We lived in the second floor of a duplex in Newport, Rhode Island, which is an old colonial town, so the architecture in the background created a kind of Peter-Pan meets Lovecraft feel to the dream.

Ã,  In this dream, the mouth bit through the wall, digesting the matter it collected in it's rather ordinary, un-fanged teeth through an esophagus and into a stomach which existed in some displaced alternate dimension. It then proceded to devour my brother (who was completely oblivious due to the Hobbit remaining perched on his face) in two hellaciously painful-looking bites. Chasing me around the room, it finally enveloped me in its jaws, and when the lips had closed around me, locking me in a shadowy enclave which seemed to exist outside of space and time, I awoke.

Ã,  Ã, Looking back on this, it is actually rather humorous, especially when I put the added flair of my creative writing skills to it... However, I remember it was, at the time, one of the most horrendous nightmares I've had in my life. While the purpose of this little bit of blatherschytation was to amuse and entertain, since such a story could hardly frighten anyone NOT actually experiencing it, I was wondering if anyone else here had similar childhood terrors... amusing now but horrible at the time.

The hair is fine... The face might need a bit of slimming out. In the meanstwhile (is meanstwhile a word?) I don't get your avatar quote... I examined the difference between W0ot and W0ot for about thirty minutes before I came to the full and complete realization that there was absolutely no difference between the two.

By the way, if you take my advice and slim out the face, I'm now seeing that the hair won't work anymore... you'll have to slim it out too, or she'll look like she has a purple afro.

It's origins were pagan??? Seriously? I thought Thanksgiving was the only REAL Christian holiday in existence. For those of you further uninclined to the study of history, religion, or holidays, Christmas is Yule, Halloween is Samhain, Easter is Easter (no joke: even the Bible "conveniently" refers to a Pagan holiday called Easter, or Eostre, which is the feast of Ishtar), and every Saint holiday (Valentine's, Patricks, etc.) draw comparisons to feasts of ancient gods. Even the archetypes have not changed (ie the Christmas tree, the Yule log, the jack-o'-lanterns, the bunny and eggs (the rabbit being a symbol of fertility, as was Ishtar), etc.)... And the dates... Does no one find it a bit odd that our "Christian" holidays fall on equinoxes and solstices, and that the supposed date of the resurrection of Christ is not an actual date, but based on astrology? (seriously, Jesus' resurrection would have been three days after Passover, folks... it isn't that hard to figure out) I thought Thanksgiving was the only "sincere" holiday of the bunch. Oh well, the turkey doesn't taste any different because of it.

It seems the general topic has gone far and away, but I had two yen, thirteen drachmas and twenty-nine francs to throw in. I wish my serious postings on a new game or on some other topic that I start as an attempt to draw interesting conversation from the community got as much attention as "I'm growing," "I'm on vacation," "Here's how you mix yogurt with nuts," and, that oldie-but-goodie, "Look, I drew sonic the retard and a Union Jack hooked up to a Tesla coil, what do you think about them?"

http://www.theespers.org/artmain.html

Here. Click "paranormal" and then select "Introduction to the Supernatural: Planar Theorem," (which is toward the bottom) or any of the other articles if you so choose, but "Planar Theorem" is the best explanation I can muster as to the existance of the supernatural.

I have had many experiences, but I do not feel free to discuss them here. I'm not sure if any of you listen to me now, but after I told you the extent of my experiences no one would probably ever take me seriously again. If you look around enough on www.theespers.org, you will find about 3% of my total experiences listed, and even that should be enough to make people think I need to go to an insane asylum. However, 50% of my experiences have been in the presence of many other people, and on several occasions at least 20-30 people have experienced activity with me.Ã,  The worst "funk" I ever had was in the presence of an entire college dormitory, and was enough to send 50 strapping lads screaming out of the building or to a corner to cry.

However, just like everyone else thinks of themselves, I could probably lay down the arguments that would make everyone believe in what I call "funk." I could probably also lay down the law on the subject of God, however, arguments on forums and in chats are often worthless, as no one listens regardless of the quality of the argument.

What I will say is this: If God is real, then He hates every religion on earth vehemently. If the paranormal is real, it is proof of God. If you believe in God, but you do not believe in the paranormal, you might as well shove your Bible up your ass, because that's where it will do the most good. If you base your religion on the Bible, like most mainstream Christian religions do, and you stray from even one word of it or let men or "priests" or "elders" or "pastors" tell you what it says without investigating it yourself, you might as well take a fat dump on it, because that is all it is worth. If you believe in religion but you can only successfully argue your religion by telling other people that their arguments are stupid or conflict with Biblical teachings, you are a friggin' nutter and need to be commited to an asylum.

That's my bit...

EDIT: Also, a few of you might want to go to the website listed above, click "Paranormal" and then select "Old Hag Syndrome." It seems quite a few of you are subject to it...

THat's not a bad idea, and = the best of both worlds...

This is what I came up with for a non-code solution.

http://www.adventuregamestudio.co.uk/yabb/index.php?topic=22843.msg281195#msg281195

Yes, I was mean to the poor Russian newb, but I apologised in the end... And it worked for him, so....

BB, I'm not sure how "internet stuff" works... I've been able to program on a computer since I was 5, but I still haven't fully explored all the ins and out of the internet, so I don't necessarily know how bandwidth works... So forgive my squirrely ignorance, but doesn't having the pics remotely hosted on Imageshack or what-have-you alleviate some (or most) of the pressure on CJ's bandshite?

Anyways, Fluke, beat up on you day not only is not over, it does not, in fact, exist. Listen, bro: do YOU think it's a good idea to have a place on the site where we could showcase our work? I mean, after all, Critic's Lounge is a place for people who want constructive criticism on the road to working on something to complete realization in the best way they can make it. I really don't see how this applies to said green line being eaten by The Blob while hovering directly over previously mentioned Cigar made by Jesus, Inc... It seems as though you just made a completed image and wanted criticism on it, not to help you out in making it better, but just so you could showcase it and have people tell you what they thought about it.

Appropriately constructive criticism WAS offered, most namely a couple about the shape of the coffin. I also believe you could have given shape to your rose petals to give it a bit more noticeable form, rather than having made it so blobbinly. Have you altered the original image yet, and if so, why not show it to us?

I have kind of an idea, but I'm not sure how well it could be implemented in the forums. I have seen it done at other forums... Even Game Maker's forums have something very slightly similar, or at least they used to.

I think FB's prob is that he wants people to see his stuff. He might not need critiquing (no one critique me for this statement, but: how can you critique a green line being eaten by a red blob on top of a wooden cigar made by Jesus?), but he wants to show his stuff off anyway. Is there a way that we can have a "personal page" on our profiles where we can display pictures, and maybe where people can comment (kinda like PM's mixed with guestbooks that everyone can see)... It shouldn't take up too much bandwidth, since all our pics on this site are remotely hosted, and there probably wouldn't be too many posts so it wouldn't eat up much space there... I've at least seen profile pages that offer a picture that's like an enlarged avatar, where you can post a pic of yourself or whatnot (ie GM). Then, if you had something interesting for people to see, you could link it from your sig.

That might serve a dual purpose:
   1) There would be less crap put in CL.
   2) There  would be less people arguing about it.

Kinoko's right... babies are little sacs of bones covered in pink viscous matter... It normally takes a while for them to start looking acceptable. It's odd that this one already looks decent... It's kinda like on TV, where a lady has a baby and it comes out of her clean and six months old.

Beautiful kid, Nik. Raise it right, like I know you will.

Brandywine = Kyrandia? I thought Brandywine = The Shire? Well, plus, there's several Brandywine rivers I know of right here in the US...

How bout a part of everyone's name whose posted in this thread? Like Farlesperpheedarthghostrui the twelfth?

HAHAHA! Robocop is great.

Bob Marley.

No, seriously...  Anyway, my two older cats are called Mungojerrie and Rumpleteazer, after the cats from Old Possum's Book of Practical Cats by T.S. Elliot. The "grampa kitty" that spawned them all is named Macavity, after the feline godfather of crime from the same book (I think these are also the names in Cats... Rui???) ... None of them good names for a female cat. However, I like Alice, and here's why: I named my two youngest kittens (both eight weeks old) after young girls from popular literature: Wendy from Peter Pan and Lucy from the Chronicles of Narnia. I might just name my next kitten, if I ever have one, Alice, after Alice in Wonderland... (Or after Squinky's female orc)

btw: Is Jiji the cat from Trigun, or is that a different cat?

[X]

Hey! I just discovered this:

http://www.4webgames.com/consoleapps/

If you scroll to the bottom there is a list of all the old INFOCOM games that you can play as web applets, including all the Zorks, Wishbringer, Trinity, Lurking Horror, Hitchhiker's guide... etc. Sadly missing is Leather Godesses of Phobos

Best moment ever in an interactive fiction game: When you first meet the Implementors in Beyond Zork, one of them says, "Isn't this the feeb who said X a couple moves ago?" where X equals your worst typo of the game. Hah! Good stuff, good times...

Does the character on his pauldron mean anything? It looks kinda like a double "yen" figure.

Anyway, I kinda like Alice better, as the second guy is really busy and there isn't much depth to the cigarette-lighting arm (it blends in with the shirt... can't really tell where one starts and the other begins. This is a big problem I have with my own art). Except for the fact that she looks more like she's sighing apathetically rather than "getting ready for a confrontation" as you said, she looks really well done. You mentioned professionalism, as well: take a look at the art in Steve Jackson's "GURPS" manual, or in the older manuals for FASA's ShadowRun... the art looks extremely similar.

Dammit, Farlander, you're always so sarcastic....Ã, 

And SSH: Thank you, so much. You can't be a Super Scottish Hero without that accent. And could you please do me the favor of recording yourself screaming "FREEDOM!"

So anyway, I was doing a little investigating into this matter. Does anyone know that Fluke tried to organize an official "Ban the Moderators" revolution a little while ago, or that he pmed "insults and curses" to Andail and possibly AGA???

http://www.adventuregamestudio.co.uk/yabb/index.php?topic=21128.0

EDIT: This isn't an attack on Fluke. I'm still in the initial stages of my newbness, too, after all, but maybe we should rethink things a bit. Besides, I think it was either Andail or AGA in the thread that I just posted that made an excellent point, the same one that was brought up when snarkarvolucione (or whatever his name was) posted the "Looking for friends" topic not too long ago: It's a legal thing.

You forgot what Beast looked like, and I forgot what Little Joe looked like...



Along the same lines let's see this....

NEXT: the first episode of SURVIVOR: BERLIN 1945