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I seem to recall some references in the show to Rorschach-inspired conspiracy theories, so I think it does suggest the journal was published. Only that because the source was less than credible (The New Frontiersman, and Rorschach himself), and because it doesn't actually contain the most incriminating facts (he posted it before he found out Veidt's actual plans), it never made a big difference. Veidt was still around and could direct a coverup of any loose ends it revealed, anyway.

Spoiler

Anyway, the interesting thing about the above quote is that maybe Dr. Manhattan knew that a future in which his wife possessed his powers was going to work out better (or had always been intended) and that's why he allowed himself to be destroyed.

Oh shit! I also just realized! He let himself be captured and destroyed to save her! It's the only way she could have survived because of course she would have followed through to the end no matter what.

But remember that Dr. Manhattan doesn't see the future as a choice between possibilities, so his actions cannot be based on knowledge of alternative outcomes.

And I don't see why she would necessarily have died if he had just avoided being killed by the… I forget what they're called â€" the Nazis. As he was quite capable of. Unlike in the comic, it was perfectly within his power, and I think consistent with his character, to just make the whole problem go away. If he wanted to die and transfer his powers to Abar, that would be fine (though in the comic he certainly didn't seem to experience them as a gift he'd like to bestow on anybody else), but I don't think that's what the show shows happening at the moment of his destruction.

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(As for the whole determinism thing, my view is that even if Dr. Manhattan doesn't have the subjective experience of free will, his actions are just as willed as anybody else's: they are the consequences of who he is and the situations he is in.)

I think that without the journal being published, his likeness hadn't been adopted by the right wing activists. Although I didn't like that, I guess it's fairly consistent with Moore's views on Rorschach.

I agree that Dr. Manhattan has free will, it's just that he has "already" made the choices. It's consistent that he's surprised and says something like "I will be surprised in five minutes".

Spoiler

So, does the Doc have a death wish? He certainly has a love wish and seems to want the human experience. I'm not sure that rules like wanting to survive really applies to him, though. In a sense, he survives through preservation of energy.

But of course, he could easily have avoided the threat. He can be several places at the same time, for crying out loud.

The point about him not seeing the future as several possible timelines was changed in the DC prequel comic books, by the way. Not a better idea than Moore's by a long shot, but it allowed them to tell another kind of story.

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So Dr.Manhattan knew he would be killed. Why didn't he stop it? Well, he kind of did. At least he found a way to survive in a sense.

Hmmm this is an interesting point...

Spoiler

Although we never find out if the wife has absorbed his powers, mirroring the way we never find out at the end of the book if the hapless newspaper assistant chooses Rorschach's journal as the "pad piece" for The New Frontiersman newspaper, thus exposing Ozymandias' grand plot and thrusting the world back onto the path of self-destruction (I guess in this TV series we are on the timeline where he did not choose the journal but I did notice the line "I leave it entirely in your hands." in the TV show which they did often with iconic lines. I wonder if a further viewing would make those lines have more value or if they were just fan service.).... End ramble...

Anyway, the interesting thing about the above quote is that maybe Dr. Manhattan knew that a future in which his wife possessed his powers was going to work out better (or had always been intended) and that's why he allowed himself to be destroyed.

Oh shit! I also just realized! He let himself be captured and destroyed to save her! It's the only way she could have survived because of course she would have followed through to the end no matter what.

DISCLAIMER: Of course it is obvious at the end of the series that she has absorbed his powers as Dr. Manhattan made it a point to tell her to remember him walking on the water of the pool, and also about the eggs. But anyway... yeah... "vague ending".

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The title of the episode makes it pretty clear, IMO.

Spoiler

A God walks into Abar

[close]

One thing I liked about the show, was the episode titles. They are funny and punny and most of the time doesn't make sense until after I'd watched the episode. Or at least it made sense in some other way.

The determinism part is problematic. In the original comic, Dr. Manhattan takes Laurie to Mars, "because that is where their conversation takes place". And during that
conversation, he changes his opinion, which he knew he would do beforehand. The pre-tale comics DC put out changed all that into a branching universe, but I think the tv series just ignores what DC has done and follows the original instead.


So Dr.Manhattan knew he would be killed. Why didn't he stop it? Well, he kind of did. At least he found a way to survive in a sense.


I didn't like the masked police and could care less for the Rorschachs. Then again, I think comic book ideas like Jokerz gangs and the likes only detract from the original ideas and add little. On the other hand, perhaps this is a realistic take on what would happen. We already have all the maskfaces of Anonymous.

Were the victim married to the accomplice?
Is the motive to hide a secret? (To keep the victim from talking?)
Is the victim male?
Is the accomplice female?
Have the murderer or the accomplice also killed someone else?

I agree - let's solve it!

Are there more than one lookalike involved?
Does the murderer or the accomplice steal the original wax statue?
Is pornography somehow involved?
Is the killer male?
Is the method of murder important? (That is, are we supposed to guess it, or is the mystery how they got rid of the body?)

Are the victim and the murderer married? (To each other, I mean)
Is there only one accomplice?
Is the murderer attracted to the accomplice?
Is the murderer attracted to the celebrity?
Was the original wax statue destroyed?

Was the motive to steal the original wax statue?
Was the victim tricked into being layered in wax to pose as the wax statue?
Did the victim believe it to be an acting job (e.g. movie abut wax statue coming to life)?
Is the celebrity's occupation relevant?
Do the accomplice(s) know about the murder?

It grew on me. I didn't like that start at all - until Laurie Blake stepped in and made the connection back to the comics. Absolutely loved it after that. Great WTF moments, particularly with Irons.

Problem is, the comic book is pure perfection as it is. Thus I'm bound to be disappointed. The only way not to, would be to go off in another direction, and I think this show did, while still capturing some of the storytelling techniques - devoting an issue/an episode to one character and have that be of major importance in the main plotline later on.

My Elvis theory was that the real Elvis, who is alive, of course, killed one of his lookalikes for singing out of tune/beating him in an Elvis impersonation contest. 

Was the original wax figure out of the museum for maintainance and then swapped/transformed?
Was there no original wax figure, e.g. the body of the victim is the original?
Did the victim believe he/she were substituting as a model for the wax figure?
Is the gender of victim/killer relevant?

There goes my Elvis theory...


Did the rotting process generate heat, thereby melting the wax?
Is the celebrity dead?
Is the celebrity royal?
Was the murder ordered by someone?

Is the victim a lookalike of a celebrity?
Does the killer bear resemblance to the victim?
Is the killer presumed dead to the public?

Is it a museum of famous murders?
Is the victim dressed up like a famous victim?

The BAU are the stars of the completely unrealistic show Criminal Minds. Which I loved.

I thought cops asking the captured Riddler would be a nice device. Not my invention, they've done it in the comics, and  the trope is from Hannibal Lecter, who is in turn inspired by Bundy consulting. But you knew that. Riddler would, however, very likely catch a nursery rhyme pattern in the making, so there is a small clue there. Also, the title was "This serial killer had a pattern", which was meant as another hint to "This little piggy."

Looking forward to the Captain's log.

    Correct!     
(Stole the heading from the thread starter.)

CaptainD guessed it way before I thought it would be possible.

My plan was indeed to make the next death by poisoned beef. The Riddler sniggered at the mention of the "second" victim because it was done backwards. The five little piggies ought to be connected somehow, like brothers or neighbours. I thought it would be too obvious if the first victim was killed at the market and the second at home, but you never know - perhaps the leap to nursery rhymes would have been more difficult that way.

Congratulations on solving what I feared would be an unsolvable case, made on a whim. 

Captain, or anyone else - feel free to take the bridge.

[Is the killer still alive?From the nursery rhyme, do you predict there will be more victims?]

That's a major leap forward...

The Riddler adds some comments in parenthesis.

Spoiler

Case #62: This serial killer had a pattern
I really hate this. The BAU can't find anything, and the brass sent me to ask that maniac in Gotham, Nygma. And after ten seconds, he exclaimed that he saw a pattern. Dammit! I don't know if this guy is for real or not, but now I'm supposed to ask him all sorts of questions, and he'll answer only Yes or No, like it's a parlor game!

Oh well. The first victim was found outside his own front door. He had fallen down a steep slope and landed practically on his doorstep. The weird part was that he was apparently tied up and tickled by some sort of device until he fell and tumbled to his death/home.

The second victim was found chained to a chair and starved to death.

Of all the cases I shared with the Riddler...pardon, mr. Nygma, these were the two that were connected. Is he pulling my leg? What can he possibly see that the FBI does not?

[close]

Yes

Were both victims human?
Were both victims male? (But it matters not)
Were both victims adults? (But I personally think this was a mistake)
Is our killer using nursery rhymes to theme their kills?
Could this case happen in the real world? (But I doubt it will)
Is the first victim's death related to a nursery rhyme in any way?
Did both victims have a similar appearance?
Did the victims know each other ? (Although the FBI wouldn't tell me, I predict it is so.)
Is the killer using one nursery rhyme to theme their kills?
Is the second victim's death related to a nursery rhyme in any way?

Is the killer still alive?
From the nursery rhyme, do you predict there will be more victims? 



No

Were both victims female?
Is the first crime connected to "Knick-Knack Paddywhack"?
Is the second crime connected to "Old Mother Hubbard"?
To the second victim: Would he/she/it not have died if the first victim wouldn‘t have died ?
Whoooah, this is a hard one
Is this case related to the nursery rhyme of "Jack and Jill" in any way?
Are the first and second victim the same person?
Are the killer's crimes related to The Far Side comics in any way?
Were the victims twins?
Did the first victim fall off his own roof? (But he could have. Doesn't matter.)
Is the „steep slope“ the face of a building ? (But it could have been. Doesn't matter.)
Was victim 1 already dead before he fell on the ground?
Did victim 2 depend on victim 1 ?
Did the ties of victim 1 and the chains of victim 2 initially belong to each other ?
Was the nursery rhyme the serial killer is using Jack and Jill?
Is the killer using different using nursery rhymes to theme their kills?
Is the first victim's death related to the nursery rhyme "Knick-knack Paddywhack" in any way?

Is it one of the cruel types ?


The FBI didn't provide that information. I guess it doesn't matter.

Was the second victim found at his/her home?
Did both victims have a similar job?
Did both victims have a family?
Did the serial killer hear these nursery rhymes as a child?
Did the serial killer kill the people who read him the nursery rhymes?

[Did the victims know each other ? (Although the FBI wouldn't tell me, I predict it is so.)Is the killer using one nursery rhyme to theme their kills?Is the second victim's death related to a nursery rhyme in any way?]

I see I forgot Stupot's question, will include it now. You guys are doing good. I'll drop some more hints if I deem it necessary. 


The Riddler adds some comments in parenthesis.

Spoiler

Case #62: This serial killer had a pattern
I really hate this. The BAU can't find anything, and the brass sent me to ask that maniac in Gotham, Nygma. And after ten seconds, he exclaimed that he saw a pattern. Dammit! I don't know if this guy is for real or not, but now I'm supposed to ask him all sorts of questions, and he'll answer only Yes or No, like it's a parlor game!

Oh well. The first victim was found outside his own front door. He had fallen down a steep slope and landed practically on his doorstep. The weird part was that he was apparently tied up and tickled by some sort of device until he fell and tumbled to his death/home.

The second victim was found chained to a chair and starved to death.

Of all the cases I shared with the Riddler...pardon, mr. Nygma, these were the two that were connected. Is he pulling my leg? What can he possibly see that the FBI does not?

[close]

Yes

Were both victims human?
Were both victims male? (But it matters not)
Were both victims adults? (But I personally think this was a mistake)
Is our killer using nursery rhymes to theme their kills?
Could this case happen in the real world? (But I doubt it will)
Is the first victim's death related to a nursery rhyme in any way?
Did both victims have a similar appearance?

Did the victims know each other ? (Although the FBI wouldn't tell me, I predict it is so.)
Is the killer using one nursery rhyme to theme their kills?
Is the second victim's death related to a nursery rhyme in any way?



No

Were both victims female?
Is the first crime connected to "Knick-Knack Paddywhack"?
Is the second crime connected to "Old Mother Hubbard"?
To the second victim: Would he/she/it not have died if the first victim wouldn‘t have died ?
Whoooah, this is a hard one
Is this case related to the nursery rhyme of "Jack and Jill" in any way?
Are the first and second victim the same person?
Are the killer's crimes related to The Far Side comics in any way?
Were the victims twins?

Did the first victim fall off his own roof? (But he could have. Doesn't matter.)
Is the „steep slope“ the face of a building ? (But it could have been. Doesn't matter.)
Was victim 1 already dead before he fell on the ground?
Did victim 2 depend on victim 1 ?
Did the ties of victim 1 and the chains of victim 2 initially belong to each other ?
Was the nursery rhyme the serial killer is using Jack and Jill?
Is the killer using different using nursery rhymes to theme their kills?
Is the first victim's death related to the nursery rhyme "Knick-knack Paddywhack" in any way?


The FBI didn't provide that information. I guess it doesn't matter.

Was the second victim found at his/her home?
Did both victims have a similar job?
Did both victims have a family?

Did the serial killer hear these nursery rhymes as a child?
Did the serial killer kill the people who read him the nursery rhymes?

[Could this case happen in the real world? (But I doubt it will)Is the first victim's death related to a nursery rhyme in any way?Did both victims have a similar appearance?]

The Riddler adds some comments in parenthesis.

Spoiler

Case #62: This serial killer had a pattern
I really hate this. The BAU can't find anything, and the brass sent me to ask that maniac in Gotham, Nygma. And after ten seconds, he exclaimed that he saw a pattern. Dammit! I don't know if this guy is for real or not, but now I'm supposed to ask him all sorts of questions, and he'll answer only Yes or No, like it's a parlor game!

Oh well. The first victim was found outside his own front door. He had fallen down a steep slope and landed practically on his doorstep. The weird part was that he was apparently tied up and tickled by some sort of device until he fell and tumbled to his death/home.

The second victim was found chained to a chair and starved to death.

Of all the cases I shared with the Riddler...pardon, mr. Nygma, these were the two that were connected. Is he pulling my leg? What can he possibly see that the FBI does not?

[close]

Yes

Were both victims human?
Were both victims male? (But it matters not)
Were both victims adults? (But I personally think this was a mistake)
Is our killer using nursery rhymes to theme their kills?

Could this case happen in the real world? (But I doubt it will)
Is the first victim's death related to a nursery rhyme in any way?
Did both victims have a similar appearance?



No

Were both victims female?
Is the first crime connected to "Knick-Knack Paddywhack"?
Is the second crime connected to "Old Mother Hubbard"?
To the second victim: Would he/she/it not have died if the first victim wouldn‘t have died ?
Whoooah, this is a hard one

Is this case related to the nursery rhyme of "Jack and Jill" in any way?
Are the first and second victim the same person?
Are the killer's crimes related to The Far Side comics in any way?
Were the victims twins?


The FBI didn't provide that information. I guess it doesn't matter.

Was the second victim found at his/her home?

Did both victims have a similar job?
Did both victims have a family?

The Riddler grinned strangely when he said "the second victim". I don't know why.

[Were both victims human?Were both victims male? (But it matters not)Were both victims adults? (But I personally think this was a mistake)Is our killer using nursery rhymes to theme their kills?]

The Riddler adds some comments in parenthesis.

Spoiler

Case #62: This serial killer had a pattern
I really hate this. The BAU can't find anything, and the brass sent me to ask that maniac in Gotham, Nygma. And after ten seconds, he exclaimed that he saw a pattern. Dammit! I don't know if this guy is for real or not, but now I'm supposed to ask him all sorts of questions, and he'll answer only Yes or No, like it's a parlor game!

Oh well. The first victim was found outside his own front door. He had fallen down a steep slope and landed practically on his doorstep. The weird part was that he was apparently tied up and tickled by some sort of device until he fell and tumbled to his death/home.

The second victim was found chained to a chair and starved to death.

Of all the cases I shared with the Riddler...pardon, mr. Nygma, these were the two that were connected. Is he pulling my leg? What can he possibly see that the FBI does not?

[close]

Yes

Were both victims human?
Were both victims male? (But it matters not)
Were both victims adults? (But I personally think this was a mistake)
Is our killer using nursery rhymes to theme their kills?



No

Were both victims female?
Is the first crime connected to "Knick-Knack Paddywhack"?
Is the second crime connected to "Old Mother Hubbard"?
To the second victim: Would he/she/it not have died if the first victim wouldn‘t have died ?
Whoooah, this is a hard one


The FBI didn't provide that information. I guess it doesn't matter.

Was the second victim found at his/her home?

[Case #62: This serial killer had a pattern]

Case #62: This serial killer had a pattern
I really hate this. The BAU can't find anything, and the brass sent me to ask that maniac in Gotham, Nygma. And after ten seconds, he exclaimed that he saw a pattern. Dammit! I don't know if this guy is for real or not, but now I'm supposed to ask him all sorts of questions, and he'll answer only Yes or No, like it's a parlor game!

Oh well. The first victim was found outside his own front door. He had fallen down a steep slope and landed practically on his doorstep. The weird part was that he was apparently tied up and tickled by some sort of device until he fell and tumbled to his death/home.

The second victim was found chained to a chair and starved to death.

Of all the cases I shared with the Riddler...pardon, mr. Nygma, these were the two that were connected. Is he pulling my leg? What can he possibly see that the FBI does not?