Messages

Monkey, I know how Khris "bursts into flames" real fast, and no, I'm not upset about his comments. He's honest with himself. I respect him a lot.

I am indeed upset with the mockery of some guys that just came in into the thread, launched a joke or two about religion, felt really superior about themselves and left. It's okay, maybe I deserve it. I sometimes jump into threads only to say stupid stuff. Only this time I really care for what I am defending.

But, anyway, I knew this thread would turn up like this. Religious people are but a few in our little forum universe and then there are this boring atheists with their statistics and studies...Oh well, enough said. I know it's over.

I love to live, I can't see me near death, and hell, or the impossibility of reason, is one last step before dust, bones and...nothing.
If there is a hell, or Hell or one Hell, at least I can cry out of my lungs that I didn't do it! It wasn't me!
I rather suffer in burning pain for eternity than to simply vanish into nothing.
Why should I surrender to the notion that there is nothing after death if all my willing and hope is telling me there is.
Why should I yield to reason if love grabs me by the collar?
The last breath, the last electricity pinballing neurons, the last thought...and nothing. That's it.
Not for me.

Maybe religious people are the mad men of modern times, maybe we are the true rebels of a plastic world,
but we see colours while you see in Black & White.
What I do know, it's we're here and it's now.
The lack of respect is just to much for me to continue this debate.

I'll be at the guess the movie thread replying "Blade Runner" to all the smart-ass kids that think that a good movie is one that nobody has seen.

Khris, so you're saying that only religious people "attack" gays? A gay is beaten up in a street in Berlin and you are 100% sure the offender is a Catholic?
He's not a f.... ass-hole with no idea of what he's doing in the world, no, he's a Catholic because he hates gays! That's not something that I'd think you would believe. But things change when hate is around, isn't it?
Are we still talking about the inquisition or can we move please?
You got stuck in the medieval ages regarding religion concepts like I could get stuck in political concepts regarding some of the countries that entered WW2.
I chose not to base my opinion on people due to mistakes that were done.
But this is me.

In the USA there are laws that forbid gay people to kiss in a Shopping Mall, you wanted examples. Unless USA isn't democratic but a Catholic Country like the Vatican.

Khris, I'll start with the second question if I may:

When I talk about guilt I mean a religious guilt, I am supposing that a gay person may feel guilty of not obeying religious rules. I am not saying a gay person should feel guilty because he/she's gay.
This said, IF there is guilt involved, it's of a personal nature. Shared between the person and God.
The only "harm" this person will feel is on its own private conscience. 
Human Justice is different. And changes according to country, races and time itself. Democratic countries vary on their laws towards gays. Gay people get arrested in some Democratic countries.
What I want to say, Khris, and believe me that I am being honest, is that I do not think that men can safely take care of our world without the notion of the divine. I truly believe that the divine instils a different (hopefully better) dimension to our lives.

And why would you think people praise homosexuals?

I didn't mean it like that. I mean that there were times that male relationships were "normal" within certain parts of societies and that it may as well be again, considering that "tastes" are forever bond to a certain type of time wheel.

I think I sort of answered your first question as well. I feel that we would eventually fail to resist self-destruction without the notion of the divine.

My opinion on monkey's statement is that it makes me happy to see somebody finding a path that makes him a better person. I don't really care what that path is.
But because I am a religious person as well, I understand perfectly what he means.

When you look at the Bible, do you ever have opinions on the rules stipulated there?

Andail, I had many questions and still have regarding the Bible. Well, not The Bible itself but the many gospels and scripts that were not included in it. I consider The Bible to be a light, condensed, chosen version of the events. The full event magnitude reveal a very complex thread, sometimes disturbing, some times divine.
I'm pretty cool about debating my beliefs and goblins in basement, so go ahead.

I'm pretty sure that no matter how early in the history of mankind, whenever there was a religion, there were people who we would call atheists around.

I'm not sure of that, Khris. It was not religion, of course, but that "thing" that we have engraved in our DNA was a interpretation of what they could not explain. The "thing" later becoming divinities is a more coherent approach to the matter, in my opinion. Language has a relevant part in it as well. God was surely one of the first words men created, out of respectful fear.

Quote from: miguel on Today at 14:25

    We would probably exterminate ourselves if we were 100% certain that "only" human laws can "punish" or "reward" us during our lifespan.

What...? Why?

Because we could.

It sounds like you're saing "it's better to view homosexuality as a sin, because the only alternative is viewing it as a crime". Is this what you believe, or am I misunderstanding you?

No, I'm saying that gay people are given the religious option of guilt or no guilt. While humans can and will burn homosexuals this century, and praise them the next one.
And yes, I don't judge gays, nor atheists.

Regarding "God wants them dead":
I wrote "why some (most? I don't know) religious people". Nowhere did I say "all Catholics".

Yes, you did. I apologize.

The other questions I guess it was meant for Monkey.

Yes Cyrus, religion and the belief in afterlife are indeed a human "mechanism" to cope with death. We would probably exterminate ourselves if we were 100% certain that "only" human laws can "punish" or "reward" us during our lifespan.
Atheism is a modern conception if we consider how long humans have been in Earth.
This said, let's say that humans created the notion of God(s) to protect themselves.
Of course, in these Times of Plenty, we also built the idea that life is perfectly possible (better to some) without God(s) and that human justice is enough to balance things. Being religious became a sign of ignorance.
Justice.
The conflict between Divine Justice and Human Justice.
I ask all those that do not believe in God or any type of Divinity, what do you fear? Certainly not a Hell that exists only in the heads of the poor minded?
Certainly not the vengeance of a God that never was.
Do you fear difference?
Is it better for the homosexuals to be "judged" by a God that does not exists, by a notion that is thinner than air?
Or is it better for the homosexuals to be "judged" by humans with all their incredible thoughts on homosexuality?
There is a greater danger in "extracting" divinity from society than it may look.

Khris, I apologize for getting into you and Monkey's conversation, but when you say:

According to religion, gays are an abomination, and God wants them dead

we have come a long way regarding this. Like I said and will say it every time it is needed, as a Catholic I will love a gay person the same way I would a non-gay one. This was taught to me by my religion.
One thing is what the Vatican says about things like homosexuality, condoms and such and the other thing is what are the true actions of catholic communities.
Never did I hear a priest publicly condemning somebody gay in a mass. The traditional family concept is of course praised as the "right" way but that is fairly accepted as conservationism behaviour. There's no "wrath against gay sinners" crap.
I also believe that gays have more to fear from other portions of our society than from Catholics.

To Ryan, who I love:

Nope, but your argument defending parents saying it's the hardest job in the world told me your parents passed their religion on to you:

I believe raising a child is the hardest job in the world. If I was gay or atheist I would think the same.
My mother died when I was 8. I do not recall her "forcing" religion on me although I am aware that she never told me the contrary.
My father was/is a communist inveterate and mocks religion every time he can.
My grandparents on my father side were Catholics but in a very humble way, they were poor people and I guess they would go with the flow without thinking about it.
My grandparents on my mother side divorced around the 50's and that was pretty much a scandal. She was very religious and he was not.
During some years of my life I was taught religion, I took it with a great deal of interest but I had wonderful teachers. I remember clearly a Nun saying that the guy with the long beard was a representation of God and wasn't to be taken seriously. She told me to feel God rather then trying to interpret everything they were teaching Sunday afternoons. She could tell I was smart and some stuff didn't quite "work" on me. One time one of the nuns asked why people should not harm/kill others. I was the first raising my hand and replied that the species could become endangered. She could not hold a smile.
I grew up, did whatever teens do and religion wasn't really that interesting to me.
I got hooked on alternative music and surprise, surprise, many of my hero singers were rebelling against religion. I somehow figured that part of rock&roll is to go against what is established. I never rebelled myself against religion. How could music and words so beautiful laced be a source of evil or anything similar? I understood the differences. I even read Rinbaud and fell in love with his passion but then Nick Drake arrived and I was peaceful again.
The rest of my life? Grew up, found a job "but Heaven knew I was miserable, then." No, not really. I just had a normal life, had a band, smoked some joints, had girlfriends, travelled during winters after saving up in the summer. Happy days with no conflict with anyone because I loved Jesus and his thinking.
Eventually I met my wife back in 2004. We are now 5 plus a dog at home. 2 boys and a girl. None of them is catholic. The older ones hated church. The younger one is really excited about becoming a scout.
What can I say. When they ask questions about religion, I give them my honest opinion. And that's how far I go.
I hope this answers this:

You also never did acknowledge if your parents passed their religion onto you or not (so from here on out, I'm still going to assume that is a yes).

You could have asked.

Perhaps you were confused by what Khris actually meant.

I'm not confused by what Khris meant and I believe he doesn't need anybody to answer for him.
It's pretty degrading for parents when you call brainwashing the effort it is to raise their children. Yes they do copy you in order to learn, but even at tender ages they have their specific personalities. No way I could have ever take my older one from playing football. It was clear by the age of 6 that he was not the religious type.
Khris is one of those guys that really are the "salt" of our ironic life. I "read" Khris posts more times than I read my sports column for the past 10 years.
First things first, his altruistic nature is only found among saints. I love to read the lines between the lines of his posts and find really amusing when he "picks" on Monkey.

Again, I haven't a blasted clue what your immature attitude is about.

We, Catholics, understand what "hell" is early on in our lives. You passed the idea that all Catholics are terrified that hell is around the corner.
Sorry if I was immature, your assumptions are irresponsible.
I had the feeling you were the one "haunted" by that fear of renouncing religion and pay the price.
That's the problem, see? You guys think that being a religious person is like going to work and put your name when you get in and on your way out. It's not. Being religious is a state of mind that guides your actions and helps you to cope with stressful situations.
My boss, last month or so, had to go to a family funeral. There was a mass the day after or so. He is not Catholic or even the least religious kind of person. I asked him why he went to the mass. Was it by respect for the rest of the family. He answered, "No. Sometimes I just want to listen to a priest. It's the right words at the right time."

It's like you're just rambling after a few drinks. Are you asking if I went to hell? Because I clearly didn't.

Glad you didn't. Beware though. God may strike you with vengeful wrath for calling one of his sons a drinker.

Everyone has options, but will you necessarily choose one after it has already been chosen for you? Especially with something so powerfully impressionable as your family.

Assumptions again. You could have asked.
Intelligent people do change their minds. And now you know part of my life story. Can we really measure who impressed us more? My family or yours?

But, you seem to forget that this is a debate.

And you don't?

I didn't actually mean for it to sound like a disability defect, but now that you've mentioned it, for all purposes of procreation it kind of is...? I don't consider a gay person as defected though, just unfortunately different from the expected norm.

Procreation? Would you stop and read what you write, Ryan? People don't procreate, they wish to raise children. It's one of the most beautiful moments in one's life when you and your partner decide to have kids.
A gay is unfortunately different? Maybe he is lucky that he's not like you?
Look at what all that science and disbelief in religion made of you.

Are you seriously going down this road? Do you honestly think you "chose" the religion you believe? Hell no. It was chosen for you (unless you did actually find a religion your parents didn't believe, then kudos to you). These were the options you were given as a child:
A: Accept their beliefs as your own
B: Objectively disbelieve in their faith
C: Find another faith.
All of these options, except for A leave you with this: what if I'm wrong and go to "hell" and never see my family again!!?

Hey Ryan, what the fuck are you talking about?
Do you think you know what I choose for my life? Seriously, do you?
Why? Did you google it?
Why in the hell do you believe that people don't have options? I think you consider yourself pretty smart, way too smart.
And, seriously, "go to hell and never see my family again?", really? Did somebody did that to you? Poor child.
Grow up dude, people are free to choose a religion and because this all thing started about gay marriage, let me tell you this: it's their ass, they do whatever they want with it. Catholics like me will never put a man down if he chooses to be gay or Muslim or atheists or anything. A man is a man and we are all children of God, dude.
This was taught by Jesus Christ and I choose to follow.

Calin, the 6,000 years genealogy was a rule around the XVII century. Scholars did base their studies on the bible accounts and went back as far as 4004B.C. However, as with different ancient scripts, genealogy was many times "telescoped". Meaning that generations could be "skipped" while royal and important lineages would always feature. Recent studies point to a margin of 60,000-120,000 years of human kind.

Any kind of fundamentalism can "force" a line of thought into children minds. Every thing a parent does can influence children behaviour. Every thing. Hating God as well.
I thought we were discussing modern religious people, the same people you pass by in the street. We don't have a single clue of what is to be born in a 3rd world fundamentalist country. We are lucky.
Agreeing or not with you that an Afghan kid doesn't really have a choice will not change anything regarding the topic.

Raising a kid in a religious household is like brainwashing them.

Well, Khris, raising a kid is much more than that. It's the hardest job in the world and it really doesn't matter what religion the parents follow or don't follow. In fact, your assumptions are pretty much old-story, ignorant hate-rants against religious people are so gone this days that I think you're just trying to pick up a fight.
Monkey has told you that religious people cope pretty well with science, I have told you that religious people do think about it when they choose to follow a religion. It looks to me that you have the opportunity to talk about religion with 2 religious persons but refuse to do it, instead you launch attacks that aren't even interesting points of view.
Monkey is not a "easy" guy to read, maybe I'm not as well. But I don't see hostility towards atheists from him or me. And that has a name: respect for other people beliefs.
I have a opinion about atheists as well, you know? What I do is to think first and realize that I'm on a computer game forum and 99% of the people here aren't religious. Therefore I restrain myself from commenting. I respect.

Hahahaha! You see? You can be a funny guy, in your special way.
Anyway, you do know that you tend to sum everything into the same bag. And while you are at it, it's pretty simple that this 2000 year story has been told over and over during the 100,000 years of humans on Earth.

Wisnoskij, Ryan's right. That feeling is interpreted in different ways. It can go from divine to superstition to magic or even alien events. People call it what they want. But it is a fact. Humans do sense something other than what they see.

...why does his son, who is also himself, need to be brutally tortured and killed?

, by Khris

Well Khris, I am not going to explain it to you because my good friend, I am just a guy that interpreted it my own way. I do not own or know the truth. But, this said, it's pretty simple that Jesus, God's son, died to be remembered forever. He died and people told his story because it meant something to people.
As a physical person he was as weak as me and you, but his ideas and way of life are 2000 year old and still being defended by guys like me.
You can compare God, you can compare Jesus to hippies and remember us about the first born massacre. You can even consider me as a hill billy.
You can, but you can also take it easy, like I do.
You see, I choose to love Jesus and his way because I want to.

Spoiler

And, more serious now, if any of you want to really debate religion, I do know what's written in the bible, I don't google it. I also own several other gospels that didn't go into the bible. I know the facts like places, names and events that are historically proven and the ones not.I would rather not continue this as I find much more funny to joke about it, and joke about ourselves.

[close]

If you don't want to read the opinion of a Catholic person just skip ahead. I also write the F word on the following sentences.

Spoiler

As a Catholic I find this debate very amusing. Religion haters are amusing, Religion tolerants as well.

[close]

Spoiler

Catholics that choose to be do spend many time thinking about what we are, after all, and sometimes against all odds, following.

[close]

Spoiler

The Vatican position on homosexuality is clear and like so many times before, far from modern societies needs.

[close]

Spoiler

The Vatican primary position on what's really important is the Life of Christ. The most important lesson Jesus taught us was that life is fucking hard to start with. It's no fun to be born poor but it doesn't mean you'll be a nobody for the rest of your life. If you're smart, a fucking army will fear you and if you got the charisma you can have a nation behind you. It also taught us that being a wise guy may get you killed. You can't win them all.

[close]

Spoiler

If this wasn't enough, Jesus traded his life for his father forgiveness of all our sins.

[close]

Spoiler

Think about it, guys. He could have asked for anything because his father is God, after all. But, no. Because he knew what human nature is.

[close]

I know this sounds pretty simplistic but I believe that the more you use fancy and sophisticated terms the more you loose track of what is important.
Being a Catholic is understanding the needs of others. And the only radical behaviour is against the ones that put down people for race, creed, sexual orientation and anything that is their human right to be or choose.

And no, we don't follow the Bible like a set of rules. We respect the Bible and I personally love the Bible. Some texts even feel holy to me. But I can separate things the same way I can read LOTR and extract a message.
Another thing, Catholics are regular guys with the same passions and frustrations of others. We really just want to be happy. Just like gay couples, I guess.

Ryan, maybe doing the Mexican Wave can help? Single Mexican Waves have been done before.

I'm now going to introduce the word Thermometer into the debate.

The name is China.

[Does opposing gay marriage make you an asshole?]

I just want to answer the thread question, Does opposing gay marriage make you an asshole?

Well, yes it does, but it depends on where you're debating it. It is easy to find a place where all the participants will consider your opposing idea the right one.
In 20 years from now it will even sound just homophobic.

It's funny to think that a poor, small country like Portugal can cope so well with all this nonsense. We are Catholics, there's no household over here without a cross or a picture of Christ. We are proud and happy with it, but we are also a very tolerant country regarding sex choices. Many popular and famous people here are known to be gay, and that's including major politicians and everybody knows it, we talk about it, but really just don't care.

Really guys, a gay couple gets married. What's the big deal?

[Inspector PrON - The Naughty Finger Series!]

If that module Baron's talking about would ever be made I'd be one happy Agser!
I can already imagine producing a series of short games all about pron! Inspector PrON - The Naughty Finger Series!

My vote went to Mordalles as well. You have a very talented hand, my friend!
Congratulations to everyone, it was great to be part of it.