Messages

Is this some kind of joke? I could swear that looks EXACTLY like MY cat....  :o

 Don't mean to sound off-topic but IMO the spirit is the 6th sense, or it could be the 4th dimension essentially. No way to truly see it (while its in a person), smell, hear, taste, or feel. Im not saying ghosts by "spirits". Everyone has a spirit whether, has nothing to do with religion or atheism. Your brain is the cockpit, what's the pilot?

For those of you that are fanatical about being "scientific" about everything no matter what is presented to you, you would say brain waves. But if you think about it, it really dosen't make too much sense. I mean WHY would the brain waves tell you to be a "nice" person in a certain situation etc. Something has to be driving it and we have no way of seeing it at this point in history. Just something to arouse some thought.

Sorry but I really don't understand where you stated your theory or what any of those formulas mean. If I understand you are suggesting that a human dies and the energy turns into some kind of hydrogen gas which is the ghost? I really dont know much about the science of spirits and stuff like that.

Because he only wants to discuss in this thread, that's all.Ã,  And no, he's not going to anymore.Ã,  Just that shitar and voh still seem to think I am.

lol you're discussing right now...

I only have one last point to make:
"Hail Hitler"
Don't Like it?
that's what you'd be saying if it werent for America...

You just lost the discussion by default.

Godwin's Law has been proved yet again.

Wow... you owned him. Zhukov and the Russians were responsible for nearly 75% of all German casualties. Do the math.

Maybe it's because Sh*tar is 15.

Yes, I'm 15. What's your point? If you are going to try to insult me by discrediting me, atleast do it over the fact that I never made a released AGS game. Making fun of my age isn't anything more than an "e-cliche".

I never said we all think the same. I said we all have problems, but there are basic human compulsions that play out regardless of your location.Ã,  I didn't think this needed further explaination.

I can go a couple hours from where I live and meet folks that have completely different value systems than me, but they still are human. That is my point. Every culture has problems...

Theres even some compulsions that can feel a bit different, but now you're speaking alot more clearer and I understand what you are trying to say. I understood that you meant that we all thought the same in that previous post and it made no sense to me.

Got me there. I'm sure you've learned a lot in your whole 15 years on this earth.

So, I'm supposed to believe that Europe is this magical place where the problems of the world disapear? Not buying it....

People are people...

I never said Europe was a place where problems disappear. I was stating against you believing that everyone in the world thinks the same. Your priorities and mindset are completely different from Europeans, Eastern Asian, Middle East. I'd love to think that we're all just friendly human beings living together, thinking the same, living with the same mutual plans and ideals. I've been to the Middle East, Eastern Europe, Western Europe, and United States and that isn't how it works.

Telling yourself that we're all same in our minds really is ignorance.

and probably have the same groups of people, problems, and other things, just different sitautions....

Nice assumption. Move to Europe and see if you're correct. I've lived in both Europe and US so I have my views in place.

I discovered I could create moisture. 

Well, it's not the conflict that John (if he wrote this) is after, but awarness. And he succedes.

or perhaps it's... *GASP* comedy?

For future reference, this was not written by John Cleese.

It is, however, funnier if you imagine him reading it out loud.

Damnit! I don't believe it, I don't want to! Proof?

http://galskap.nu/ext/5194.html


Damn I really want that vegetable peeler permit.

Every human being in the world has the potential to be evil. So essentially it is stupid to call anyone the "most evil". Is Hitler worse then someone that privately believes everyone should kill the Jewish people? I hate all of us, we all can do unbeliavably bad things. Yet at some times we can do good through killing or "bad" acts. In my opinion people like Wiston Churchill and Roosevelt were true "good guys" but does that mean people that wanted to do what they did aren't just as good? Bleh Im not even making sense anymore. So much to say, such a little vocabulary.

[History Before the Battle]

 To say it simply this thread is hear to exlpain that Kosovo is important to us because of the legend and inspiration it made. It happened on June 15th, 1389. I will try to start at an earlier time and go up from there.


History Before the Battle

I'm sure some of you know about the 1389 Battle of Kosovo, but likely the majority of you don't understand it and it's effects. I'm going to keep this as simple as I can. The Ottoman Turks (Muslims) had began invading Eastern Europe in the mid 1300's. Their goal at the time was to go through the Balkans, take over, and assimilate the conquered. As far as we can tell from what little "accurate" information that survived for such a long time, they were going through the Balkans to take over and march to Vienna, Austria.

At the time the Serbian kingdom had enjoyed having a rising economy. Many important Serbian people lived in Kosovo and surrounding areas. Down the road eventually (I believe it was 1371 but I could be wrong) Prince Lazar had become a leader in the Serbian armies and a battle occured (either near or directly IN Kosovo, not proven where as far as I have read). A battle happened and the Serbians pushed the Turks back to the city of Nis according to what is known. 

Keep in mind back then the armies traveled extremely slow. Especially the Ottomans who were built almost entirely of Jannisaries (somewhat like a foot soldier). Nothing memorable enough happened until 1389. Lets approach that time period now.


The Main Characters of the Battle

By 1389 Lazar was now a King (Tzar). At this point in time though he was no longer the only "legend" of the war on the Serbian's side. A Serbian Knight by the name of Milos Obilic had became famous for his exploits against the Turkish. There was also Lazar's son-in-law, Vuk (Wolf) Brankovic. There are MANY other "players" that you can read about on sources on the internet but keep in mind this battle we are approaching in this thread happened over 600 years ago. Keep an open-mind.

As the story goes a ultimatum came from the Turkish King, Murad I. Lazar could surrender and step down as the King and handover the "keys" to all his cities, or fight and die. You guess which one he took  : . At this point it was just a building up of tension until the battle. A distrust developed between Obilic and Brankovic.

Back then Serbia was a much more religious region in the world. It was basically Christians vs. Muslims to the 2 sides. Lazar raised an army. The number is unknown. Some claim the Serbs were outnumbered 2x. But most Serbians believe (due to a Epic poem much like the Oddysey and Illyad (sp?)) that it was much more than that. Heres the passage:

And Milosh says to Ivan Kosanchich:
"My brother, have you seen the Turkish army?
Is it vast? and do we dare attack them?
Can we conquer Murad here at Kosovo?"
And Ivan Kosanchich answers him like this:
"My noble friend, O Milosh Obilich!
I have spied upon the Turkish army
And I tell you it is vast and strong.
If all the Serbs were changed to grains of salt
We could not even salt their wretched dinners!
For fully fifteen days I've walked among those hoards
And found there no beginning and no end.
From Mt. Mramor straight to Suvi Javor,
From Javor, brother, on to Sazlija,
From Sazlija across the Chemer Bridge,
From Chemer Bridge on to the town of Zvechan,
From Zvechan, Milosh, to the edge of Chechan,
And from Chechan to the mountain peaks-
Everywhere the Turks line up in battle gear:
Horse is next to horse and warriors all are massed.
Their lances are like trunks of forest trees;
Their banners are like endless sailing clouds
And all their tents are like the drifting snows.
Ah! and if from heaven a heavy rain should fall
Then not a single drop would ever touch the earth
For all the Turks and horses standing on it.
Turkish forces occupy the field before us
Stretching to the rivers Lab and Sitnitsa.
Sultan Murad's fallen on the level plain of Mazgit!"

Lazar had raised as many Christian armies as he could. This was not JUST Serbians. It was a unification of the Balkans not seen before. There were German Saxons, Albanian princes, Polish warriors, Hungarian hordes, etc. This battle is undermined. This was a battle where the Kings and Princes all fought in the front, it was too important for just anyone to lead. This was a battle that would make or break the fate of Eastern Europe against the Ottoman Turks. The night before the battle there was a giant feast where according to the stories Obilic told Lazar that he would slay Murad I.

The day of the battle the armies met on the Kosovo fields to battle. Milos Obilic and Ivan Kosanchich have a conversation (in the poem, continuing directly after the passage I just quoted a few paragraphs up). Passage:

Then Milosh looks at Kosanchich and asks:
"My brother, tell me next where I can find
The tent of mighty Sultan Murad For
For I have sworn to noble Lazarus
To slaughter like a pig this foreign Tsar
And put my foot upon his squealing throat."
And Ivan Kosanchich replies like this:
"O Milosh Obilich, I think you must be mad!
Where do you suppose that tent is placed
But in the middle of the vast encampment-
And even if you had a falcon's wings
And flew down from the clear blue skies above
Your wings would never fly you out again alive!"
Then Milosh thus implores Ivan to promise:
"O Ivan Kosanchich my dearest brother-
Not in blood, but so much like a brother-
Swear to me not to tell the Tzar
What you have seen and said to me just now.
Lazarus would suffer anguish over it;
The army under him would grow afraid.
We must both of us say this instead:
Though the Turkish army is not small,
We can easily do battle with them
And defeat them . . . This is what we've seen:
Not an army made of knights and warriors
But of weary pilgrims, old and crippled hodjas,
Artisans, and skinny adolescents
Who have never even tasted blood
And only come to Kosovo to see the world
Or earn a crust of bread, a cup of dark red wine . . .
And if there is a real Turkish army,
That one's fallen sick from dysentery and has lost its way.
Far from here they shit upon the earth
In fear of us ... and even all their horses
Suffer illnesses, ruined by distemper, laminitis,
Spreading fatal hoof and mouth disease
To captured cattle and to captured sheep."

Now to move on to the battle.

The Battle Strategy and Events/Outcome

The Serbian/Balkan "Christian Army" was divided into 3 portions. Left wing led by Vuk Brankovic. Center lead by Lazar. And right wing led by Lord Ivan Kosanchich and Milos Obilic. According to the stories and poems as passed down and scripted, the Ottomans had the upper hand from the start because of the numbers. However as time went on our impossibly outnumbered armies started to win. Lets take a look at fact vs fiction in this next paragraph.

The best sources of the actual battle and formations came from the Turkish historians and leaders present at the battle, mainly because they survived  . According to the different sources from the battles the Turks had a great fear of the Serbs. "They were not taught how to retreat or move backwards." It's a nice way to present it to inspire, but the matter of fact was that the Turkish army was on a FIELD using Jannisaries in front of their lines and light armored fighters in the back. While the Serbians and allies were heavily armored, equipped, cavalry fighters. They tore through the Turks with their horses.

Back then projecticles werent really as effective as guns are today. And in a time of swords and morale the outnumbered almost always had to be the attackers. The Turks strategy was to play on the defensive. The strategy was to let them get extremely deep into their formations, even in the Turk camp. Then hit them from the back when they surrounded the Serbians. As the Christian Army charged one source described it as sounding "like Iron rolling down a hill". To the surprise of everyone the right and left flank easily tore through the Turkish soldies, but Lazar (center) was having difficulties advancing through the Turks he was fighting.

Eventually at some point everything went bad and this is where the legend begins that all Serbians cherish. This is where you see the most "variation" in story from story depending on what Serbian you hear it from. It is not recorded, accurately, what chronological order the next three events happened in.


1. Vuk Brankovic and his 12,000 men retreated. He is characterized as a traitor in Serbian folklore. Some say he joined the Turkish with his men and betrayed the Serbians. Some say he just plain got scared. But more realistically, some say he retreated because it was the smart thing to do (by smart they are referring to having an army 'live to fight another day').

2. King Lazar is at some point in the battle captured in the conflict. Once it is over his head is cut off. Some variations say he was just plain cut down in battle. The poems and stories go on to speak of what happens to his body and head throughout history. He goes down forever in Serbian history as one of the greatest heroes of all time. Believed to have died for the sin of all Serbians the way Christ did. There is more to this though that I will finish the thread with shortly. The poems speak of a "falcon" flying to him and speaking to him before the battle (representing the Holy aspect of the story):

Yes, and from Jerusalem, O from that holy place,
A great gray bird, a taloned falcon flew!
And in his beak he held a gentle swallow.
But wait! it's not a falcon, this gray bird,
It is a saint, Holy Saint Eliyah:
And he bears with him no gentle swallow
But a letter from the Blessed Mother.
He brings it to the Tsar at Kosovo
And places it upon his trembling knees.
And thus the letter itself speaks to the Tsar:
'Lazar! Lazar! Tsar of noble family,
Which kingdom is it that you long for most?
Will you choose a heavenly crown today?
Or will you choose an earthly crown?
If you choose the earth then saddle horses,
Tighten girths- have your knights put on
Their swords and make a dawn attack against
The Turks: your enemy will be destroyed.
But if you choose the skies then build a church-
O, not of stone but out of silk and velvet-
Gather up your forces take the bread and wine,
For all shall perish, perish utterly,
And you, O Tsar, shall perish with them."
And when the Tsar has heard those holy words
He meditates, thinks every kind of thought:
"O, Dearest God, what shall I do, and how?
Shall I choose the earth? Shall I choose
The skies? And if I choose the kingdom,
If I choose an earthly kingdom now,
Earthly kingdoms are such passing things-
A heavenly kingdom, raging in the dark, endures eternally."
And Lazarus chose heaven, not the earth,
And tailored there a church at Kosovo-
O not of stone but out of silk and velvet-
And he summoned there the Patriarch of Serbia,
Summoned there the lordly twelve high bishops:
And he gathered up his forces, had them
Take with him the saving bread and wine.
As soon as Lazarus has given out
His orders, then across the level plain
Of Kosovo pour all the Turks.


3. Milos Obilic is perhaps the favorite hero of the battle. During the middle of the battle he had came to the Turkish camp posing as a traitor and deserter. Some verions of this part have him coming to the camp with his 11 other Knights of the Dragon Order members. He is then brought to Murad I. What is believed to have happened is that he was told to kiss Murad I feet to show loyalty. From there he took a poisoned dagger and stabbed the king. What happened from there is the legend. He was said to have been cut down in the tent by the guards. Some of the more mythical versions speak of him running to a river to escape and killing 12,000 Turks before being killed. Beyazid I, was the son of Murad I. Though the stories present the assissination as a victory within the ongoing battle, Turkish sources have suggested that Murad I had survived long enough to tell Beyazid I what to do. Beyazid quietly reorganized the army and killed his brother to avoid dispute over the throne. They counterattacked once the Serbian Knights were "surrounded" like their plan originally intended.

The Legend and Why It Is Important to the Serbians

It is said that not one single Serbian survived that battle. Some stories suggest though that one Knight from Obilic's Knights of the Dragon survived and trained a future Serbian Tzar/King. Sorry for the thread being so long but It just seems to me that not many people understood why it was important to the Serbians to keep Kosovo as their land no matter who the occupants are.

If this was expressed in a movie form in the Western world or maybe just a 2d adventure game (  ) people could understand what it was that happened. It is said that sometimes a military defeat is a moral victory. The Serbian people never lost their identity after that battle, along with the other countries that participated. Serbia was under Turkish rule for the next 500 years, and they never succumbed completely to the Turkish Islam assimilation tactics that many others had fell to. The Serbians always remained Serbians and always knew what they were capabale of and several more uprisings happened in which people gladly came to fight in.

Obilic's self sacrifice to attempt to save a chance for the Christian Army to survive, and King Lazar's noble fight at the front of his army leading them to Hell's Gates will always be burned into our memory. We will hear it for the rest of our lives from our parents as kids all across the Balkans, even the Turkish teach the battle in their schools. Kosovo is our Jerusalem. It was our Pearl Harbor. When faced with a task in our ordinary life, we just remember all that died in that battle and realize how easy life is. The Battle of Kosovo is what gave us our identity and mindset. Im sorry if some of you genuinly read all this and didn't care in the end. Typing this all out is helping me more than it really is anyone else likely. Our entire Christian Army of Christians of many nations was wiped out on those fields. They didn't win but they stunted the Ottoman Turkish Empire's advance into Austria and the rest of Europe and eventually they were defeated in World War I. If this battle had not occured Europe could have been extremely different from the way we know it now.


The poem link below
http://www.rastko.org.yu/knjizevnost/usmena/battle_of_kosovo.html

 Theres no point in arguing evolution vs. religion or spiritualism vs. religion because in the end it's just opinions that can only be SUPPORTED (not proven) by facts. Same thing with the whole "good and evil". It's opinionated. I really didn't mean to start a religious thread because it splits the AGS crowds into 2.

25.5million Russians sacrificed themselves to save the world in WWII... I dont understand how this could be fear? And the way some of you make it sound is that there is no "right" only opinions... is that possible?

 I don't know how to start this so I will try even though Im exiled from this forum. Some of you might know but most wont, I'm a Serbian from Yugoslavia when it was united. I now live in the United States. Recently I started using google news to learn about how my reforming home is doing. I came across this website.

http://kosovareport.blogspot.com/

After reading all of the articles on there... I don't know how to think now. Here I am never truely thinking about the Bosnian/Albanian Wars, living happy. Now I find out that the international community thinks that we are bloodthirsty psychopaths that find genocide orgasmic?

What happened to my home. I feel like I'm going to start crying and break down or just lose my mind. I can't understand why its like this. How can there be so much hate, how can WE Serbians be called these kinds of people? How can the Serbians, Albanians, Croatians, Slovenians, Bosnians, Macedonians become so evil towards each other. We were brothers. We were in the same armies at the age of 18 and we were united and loved the same leader, Tito.

I doubt many of you can understand why this is affecting me, but it feels like being in a family of many brothers and all of us killing each other off. I feel like I betrayed and have been betrayed by my brothers. This is the only place I thought I could post this and be taken slightly serious.

My dad rarely likes socializing with Yugoslavs or even talking about the country now. He dosen't even like being called one. I think I understand now a little.


Why can't we all just get along?

 I actually used FLASH MX to build many intro's and cutscenes to one of my games (that I never released of course) and it isn't bad except that there is no "natural" speed you can use to make the animation within the movie look like the game. For instance your characters walk frames might change once every second while in flash it looks abnormal and you would have to do it every 1/8th of a scene. Understand what i'm kind of trying to say?

Flash MX is really wonderful with AGS except when it comes to actually merging them together and making it look as if it were part of AGS. On top of that Flash MX seems to be utter crap at 320x200 which is what many people wish to use Flash MX in. But it looks truely awesome in 640x400(not sure if that resolution is right) or 800x600.

i'm 12, turning 13 in about 3 months. ok i realise that's not the point.
wait, here's a good question. I asked a good question in the Critics Lounge, which was "does this picture i drew look good?''. But Andail locked it because he said i was too young, even though i didn't do anything! All i wanted to know was what improvements can be made. However, some guys DID reply decently, but like i said, Andail just locked it for the reason "i was too young". This is the thread so, read that and tell me how innocent moderators are.

dude you're to young I cant believe your parents allow you to use the internet.

- Regards, Teh Troll