Messages

[Screen resolution is an issue]

I think everybody is getting hung up on the execution rather than the general idea.

Most contributors to this thread have dismissed it out of hand or gotten into mud-slinging so I can see how that would ruffle your feathers a bit. You've obviously put effort into this and nobody likes to see the fruits of their labours shot down. That said, a little restraint from you Grim would perhaps have kept the mood in the thread a bit friendlier. If people don't 'get it', try to convince them rather than flaming them back.

Darth gave you some really good, constructive, feedback which you seem to have ignored almost entirely. Alternative interfaces really get my juices flowing and I would have loved to have seen Darth's work in action.

The main issue people have with what you are presenting is usability. I've had a play with it and I have to agree with some of the criticism.

Screen resolution is an issue
I've just tried it on my iPod touch and with only 4 windows it's difficult to see much of anything. (I also could not figure out how to move the windows around on the iPod. Touching the menu bar only highlighted it)

Supporting smaller resolutions does not have to be a show-stopper. With considerate planning, Plateau (yep, i'm naming it that) could adjust the display to suit. Darth has given you a brilliant example. You could also have certain menus and panels only show at set resolutions, just like mobile websites work (often widget areas will disappear on Wordpress sites, leaving only simple navigation for example)

Scrolling is a bit passe
It was said rather bluntly, but it's true that people hate having to scroll to get access to content. That is web development 101. There's nothing stopping you keeping scrolling, but again provide a slick UI to get around it. As well as manually scrolling along, couldn't there be a quick way to zip to a certain window. Look at Mac OS X with it's Launchpad and Mission Control for seeing all the applications available and those currently open.

The interface is not very user friendly
The way it is at the moment, I found the menu options very confusing. I wasn't sure how to get the layout you showed in the video until I realised you had placed and enlarged those windows manually. This is one of the major usability issues and it's tedious to have to do this. I couldn't work out how to browse to any other sites other than those accessed via the menu items or by using the multi search window. I really didn't like the Search functionality at all. Why do I have the option to change the background colour here and not on on the main page itself? What is Chimpow web search? The Google search option didn't work, but the Bing and Yahoo ones did. Also the scrollbars within scrollbars look is horrible.

My thoughts

I actually do like the general idea itself.

I know that modern browsers provide similar features already, but I could see this as a web application, or rather a suite of web applications. The only requirement would be a device running a modern web browser. I know you described it as an Operating System but perhaps that was a slip of the tongue. Coding a new Operating System sounds incredibly dull to me. Great if you can do it but, unless you're creating your own flavour of Linux, the other two OSes have got things covered. That's not to say I wouldn't like to see alternatives but it would be a tonne of work before you even consider the graphics.

No, I think you meant a web application. At the moment it's more like a website with the ability to drag around iframes. There are some nice touches like the windows remembering their locations, but it basically shows content from other sites and not much more. I think you could do so much more.

For a start, if it is to be a development hub, play up the 'all your applications and sites in one place' idea. And I mean applications. Showing websites is good, but you could create some cool web applications. Look at what Google Docs provides for your basic office on the go. I've also used sites like Pixlr for online image editing. Also, look at what Aviary provides.

So as a development hub for AGS I would expect the default 'applications' to include:

A word processor with screenwriting support
A graphics program with sprite animation support
A music editor
Access to the AGS forums
Access to the AGS chatrooms

You describe it as a development hub - why stop there? Why not think in terms of workspaces and have web applications tailored to different needs: office, writers, musicians, artists, students.

Some of web applications/websites you could provide for the above would include:

Word Processor (including templates for novels, screenplays, poetry)
Spreadsheets
Calendar with reminders
Access to Webmail
PDF editor/creator
Slideshow creator
Integration with sites like Amazon for product reviews and prices
University library book search

Certainly from a technical point of view, with some of these you could just pull in content from other sites rather than reinvent the wheel. But you could deliver a consistant user interface to tie them all together and easy ways to manipulate the content.

As it currently stands, I would like to see options like:

• Windows that snap into position
• One click options to rearrange the display of the windows (tile horizontally, vertically, cascade, minimise all, show all etc)
• Navigation that lets you easily see where you are and how to access hidden windows (perhaps a document tree or similar)
• An omni search or other overview tool to find a particular application
• A clearer launcher or menu bar for the available applications
• 'Workspaces' - ways to group applications for different use cases
• Style options affecting the whole user interface while also providing accessibility options

I don't think you should give up on the idea, but I do think you should make some paper prototypes to test out the usability of the website before leaping back into the code.

Don't restrict yourself to scrolling either. Experiment with different ways to present content and interact with it. What about mousing near the edge of the screen to have windows slide into view? Or collapsable nav trees or a layer hierarchy? How will it perform on mobile devices, especially those that are touch-enabled? Obviously there will be limits to what you can do in a web browser but so long as it gives the impression of more robust navigation it will work.

Also, think in terms of use cases:

Who would use this? Come up with user profiles. Is this a generic tool for everyone or a specialist tool for your studio?
If I have 20 windows open and I can't remember which is the AGS forum, how do I find it?
If I open a new application, should it appear on top of the others or slot into place somewhere?
How do I tell how many windows I have open?
How can I close/reopen all windows at once?
What about offline storage?

And so on..

If it's useful for your team, stick with it. I'd actually recommend that you develop it as a prototype like that so that you can work with it and see how it would fit your workflow. If it's successful, then show to other people and see how it could benefit them.

As I see it, there are three distinct use cases of the forums:

* User A, a new user who played an AGS game and wants hints / support.
* User B, a new user who wants to start making his / her own games.
* User C, an existing user.

[...]
It doesn't really matter to either of them how the forums are arranged, as long as it's easy to find what they're looking for.

For the record, I do agree with you on all points. Well said

I asked the future Mrs straydogstrut for a boys/girls name and the first thing she said was 'Charlie'. I also have a friend called Charlie and she's a girl last time I checked*

*Oh god, i'm digging myself a hole here..

[Disclaimer:]

I would suggest:

• AGS Games
• AGS Support
• Creative Production
• AGS Development
• Community
• Hosted Sites

I think we have a lot of members (and non-members) who just play AGS games, that's why i'd suggest having it at the top. Yes, AGS is a game development tool and I do agree with the opinion of having AGS Support first too. It was a toss up between the two but i'm thinking about the average user "Charlie". Allow me to indulge in a bit of play acting..

Charlie starts off playing AGS games. She can visit the Games page on the main website but the AGS Games threads are where it's at for the community feel. She gets excited by all the up and coming games and she gets help in the Hints and Tips forum. One day while gushing over Ben Jordan 19 in the Completed Games thread, Charlie thinks "Hey, I could make games like these with my own unique take on it.."

And so she reads the manual (of course she does ) and sets about building her first game. While working on Teh Most Awesmoe Game Evar she has lots of questions. Where does she turn? To the AGS Support boards while are helpfully placed right under AGS Games. She bombards the boards with questions, most of which are answered by Khris She also tries out some plugins and the barrage of questions continues.

Pretty soon she's getting a handle on the code, but her game could really use more than programmer art. Charlie did some drawing at school but she hasn't used anything on the computer other than Microsoft Paint. What tablet should she buy if at all? How does she create a walk cycle? Which paint package is the best? Does the perspective in this room look off? Do I have to draw clothes on my main character? Charlie has lots of questions..and she posts them in the Creative Production boards.

Charlie pushes through and releases her first game. She can now call herself a 'developer'. She sets about on her second game, and her third, and she's learning all the time. She's well known around the boards and helps out in the AGS Support boards. Being a regular user of AGS, she starts noticing some things that just don't work right, and other ways that things could be improved. She's no uber coder but she wants to contribute to the development of AGS..and so finds herself in the AGS Development boards, suggesting new features and reporting bugs.

It's been a long journey, but an enjoyable one, made all the more merry by shenanigans of the Community boards found near the bottom of the forum. Oh and that ROTN thing that she really needs to study up on..

Disclaimer: In the end it doesn't really matter, we'll all get to grips with whatever order is settled on. It's all good 8)
Disclaimer 2: The events portrayed above are pure fiction and in no way representative of my own AGS Journey. I'm also not a girl called "Charlie" despite what the rumours say..

[Suggestion:]

Been playing with this tonight to do some proof reading and I have to say it's fantastic

Suggestion: it would be good if the columns could be rearranged

Unexpected behaviour: when resizing columns, the table automatically scrolls to the top.

Looking forward to seeing this evolve

[src="/Content/images/arrowup.gif"]

Ooh very purdy! Good job!

FYI the src url of the arrow up and arrow down links on the A-Z list is wrong, creating a broken image. It is src="/Content/images/arrowup.gif" and should be src="../Content/images/arrowup.gif" (two dots in front to point to the right directory)

[stay out]

I'm asking this thread to get move to the The Rumpus Room, for various reasons.

We've been over this:

Icey gets his thread, to tell us about his works [..] If you don't like what you read, just stay out of it.
[..]
No, this section of the forum is open for this kind of discussion - an AGS project, why wouldn't it be? An AGS project with ideas and elements that may annoy the hell out of you [..] Why don't you just click option 5 "See you later"?
[...]
Seriously, the less you involve yourself in "it", the easier it becomes.

As per the above, this is not a "pointless, silly or irrelevant" thread. It's Icey's thread for the discussion of his works, and it has been doing fine in this board since Mods' post without any complaints. Seriously, if it bothers you that much stay out.

Icey did you get your coursework in on time? If you need any proof reading done, shoot me a PM. Going out this afternoon but can take a look tonight.

Yeah this caught me by surprise too..

Good work AGA. I think I like it but it will take some getting used to.

I agree the beginner's tech thread should be more visible on the front of the forum. It seems very developer-oriented with the way things have been moved around and reworded. Not a bad thing - this is obviously the way AGS is going - but I think beginner's (me included!) need a nice friendly visible board.

EDIT: Lol! Changed already! That's what I call service

Great! I would point out that what is above is mostly from Wyz's plan document which was a proposal (and a rather good one) but not an agreed plan of action. Still, fixing bits of the website/forums wouldn't hurt imo

[Licensing]

Slightly longer TLDR

• Website should be updated - fix/remove broken features like world map/member sites - or release new site (95% complete)
• Website and forums not being maintained without CJ - AGA now has admin control
• Wiki and AGS Archives should be made more prominent, integrated with the rest of the site
• New forums needed for dev talk and more mods to police them.
• Two, not necessarily conflicting, ideas on the way the project should be led: the community is king vs the code is king
• Involve the community as much as possible - feature requests, bug reports, opinion polls

Project split over chronological phases which are briefly:

• New boards, stickies, public goals
  
• Dev website including outline, source, bug tracker, documentation, task list
  
• Feature requests public and ordered by popularity (voted up/down by community)
  
• Organised meetings between developers
  
• Agree coding conventions and project guidelines
  
• Refactor the engine and editor code (engine first)
  
• Assign and tackle bugs and feature requests
  
• Public release - input and feedback from community
  
• As above, repeat to fade, and evaluation
  
• Tweak development process as needed
  
• Focus switch to AGS 4.0, okay to break compatibility with older games
  

See RickJ's post for a further breakdown.

Considerations

Licensing - AGS Engine 3.x and Editor have been made public under Artistic Licence 2.0. The 2.x engine and Native subsystem of the editor remain unreleased as of Feb 2012.  Code worked on by community considered the original (with CJ's blessing), everything else treated as distinct from AGS.

Integration with ScummVM - Either refactor old branch or create platform specific builds. Mention of adopting the back-end/front-end approach of the ScummVM team. Alyssa Milburn (fuzzie) working on AGS engine port for ScummVM and has completed refactoring the code.

Portability - Engine should be ported to as many platforms as possible. Editor on at least the major desktop systems

Choice of library - Allegro5 / SDL - should suit AGS licensing (ie. freely distributable with AGS), be portable, lightweight and actively supported

Encryption/DRM - More trouble than its worth, simplest route would be a third party plugin

Of course, having a unique and realistic animation for every single item pick-up would be great, but not really necessary. When I click on an item, I don't really need an elaborate animation to explain how the character bent down or reached up or whatever, because I already know what the end result is going to be: a new item in my inventory.

Oh no, I love to see lots of animations! Err, not to the extent i'm watching a movie but still, as Mods said, seeing the character pick up objects in different ways is wonderful, developer-blood-sweat-and-tears, eye candy 

I haven't played many first person adventure games and to be honest i'm more inclined to play third person adventures just because there's scope for so much characterisation and expression when you're looking at them. I really enjoy convincing, well rounded characters with backstory details and relationships that I can explore. That's what I love about adventure games compared to every other genre out there: there's so much story in just a few graphics. It's a pleasure for me just wandering around interacting with things..

I designed a 2D adventure for the DS while at uni and it was intentionally first person so that the player wouldn't be restricted to a gender stereotype. I used cues like photographs and letters to hint at backstory but it was practically a blank slate for them to impress themselves on. The way you interacted with the other characters was intended to reveal more about your nature. I liked the idea but I find it easier to relate to a visible character. Straying into Action-Adventure territory, the Half Life games are great at the first person story delivery but I couldn't care less about Gordon Freeman. He's just an invisible grunt. On the other hand, a first person style can break the 'fourth wall' with great humour as in the Portal games.

[Anna]

Okay, i've tried quite a few games out with the steps listed above. I didn't have a lot of success but I think that was to be expected with an alpha version Unfortunately where the games didn't run I didn't get any crash reports so I can't tell you very much (if you know where I can find such things, please let me know). Also I know some of these are probably due to games with plugins although most that I downloaded didn't have the .dll file in the folder so looked like they didn't have plugins. It was hit and miss really, I just tried a random bunch of games.

Games tested

Anna  - doesn't work
5 Days a Stranger  - doesn't work
Ben Jordan 1: Deluxe  - doesn't work
McCarthy Chronices - doesn't work
Stargate Adventure - doesn't work
Over The Edge - doesn't work
Trilby's Notes - doesn't work
Blackwell Legacy Demo - doesn't work
Eternally Us - works with graphical glitches (see below)
Underland - doesn't work
Death - Episode One - doesn't work
Nelly Cootalot Spoonbeaks Ahoy! - doesn't work
Unga Needs Mumba - doesn't work
A Tale of Two Kingdoms - doesn't work
Da New Guys - Day of the Jackass Demo - works at least initially, see below
Aeronuts - doesn't work
Gemini Rue Demo - works

Eternally Us

Works fine except for some graphical glitches in the menu, text and rain effects (and obviously no audio):




The rain glitch made it difficult to see what was going on so I didn't play any further.

Da New Guys - Day of the Jackass

Started fine, minor graphical glitch with the cursor on the main menu:


It then went into the intro (I think, been awhile since I tried the demo) where I would assume a voiceover is playing. After a few seconds it crashed. Crash log here.


I wasn't able to configure the game options for any of these as would usually be the case through WinSetup.exe so it may be that the crashes were due to the default choices set. I did try editing acsetup.cfg manually but the changes did not take any effect. Da New Guys was already set to a 4x filter but trying this on Eternally Us for example had no effect, none of the other options did either.

I had bundled the SDL framework but I didn't fix the runpath so it was still using my system copy. 

Please let me know if it works.

I *thought* that's what the error message meant but didn't want to appear foolish by guessing

It works!! Going to run through some more games now and come back to you with some results..

It's probably me doing something wrong as honestly I have no idea but I cannot get it to run at all=S

From your instructions, i'm assuming the DemoGame.app should run as is? Then to try other games I need to put their files in the resources folder of EngineMac, renaming the exe as you've described.

Trying to run either gives me an error like: "DemoGame cannot be opened because of a problem. Check with the Developer to make sure DemoGame works with this version of Mac OS X."

The error log is as follows. Hope it helps.

Code: ags

Process:         EngineMac [1126]
Path:            /Users/USER/Downloads/*/DemoGame.app/Contents/MacOS/EngineMac
Identifier:      BlueCup.EngineMac
Version:         1.0 (1)
Code Type:       X86 (Native)
Parent Process:  launchd [231]

Date/Time:       2012-04-09 13:18:43.432 +0100
OS Version:      Mac OS X 10.7.3 (11D50)
Report Version:  9

Interval Since Last Report:          404045 sec
Crashes Since Last Report:           27
Per-App Crashes Since Last Report:   7
Anonymous UUID:                      F84AA333-6BA6-4384-9527-55C60A7604D5

Crashed Thread:  0

Exception Type:  EXC_BREAKPOINT (SIGTRAP)
Exception Codes: 0x0000000000000002, 0x0000000000000000

Application Specific Information:
dyld: launch, loading dependent libraries

Dyld Error Message:
  Library not loaded: @rpath/SDL.framework/Versions/A/SDL
  Referenced from: /Users/USER/Downloads/*/DemoGame.app/Contents/MacOS/EngineMac
  Reason: image not found

Binary Images:
    0x1000 -   0x102fff +BlueCup.EngineMac (1.0 - 1) <129EB5BC-5478-3E02-BB35-2E0D9828BE14> /Users/USER/Downloads/*/DemoGame.app/Contents/MacOS/EngineMac
0x8fe8c000 - 0x8febeaa7  dyld (195.6 - ???) <3A866A34-4CDD-35A4-B26E-F145B05F3644> /usr/lib/dyld
0x9b4c0000 - 0x9b4c0fff  com.apple.Cocoa (6.6 - ???) <5FAFE73E-6AF5-3D09-9191-0BDC8C6875CB> /System/Library/Frameworks/Cocoa.framework/Versions/A/Cocoa

Model: iMac5,1, BootROM IM51.0090.B09, 2 processors, Intel Core 2 Duo, 2 GHz, 4 GB, SMC 1.8f2
Graphics: ATI Radeon X1600, ATY,RadeonX1600, PCIe, 128 MB
Memory Module: BANK 0/DIMM0, 2 GB, DDR2 SDRAM, 667 MHz, 0x7F98000000000000, 0x202020202020202020202020202020202020
Memory Module: BANK 1/DIMM1, 2 GB, DDR2 SDRAM, 667 MHz, 0x7F98000000000000, 0x202020202020202020202020202020202020
AirPort: spairport_wireless_card_type_airport_extreme (0x14E4, 0x87), Broadcom BCM43xx 1.0 (5.10.131.36.11)
Bluetooth: Version 4.0.3f12, 2 service, 18 devices, 1 incoming serial ports
Network Service: AirPort, AirPort, en1
Serial ATA Device: WDC WD1600AAJS-55M0A0, 160.04 GB
Parallel ATA Device: MATSHITADVD-R   UJ-85J
USB Device: Ext HDD 1021, 0x1058  (Western Digital Technologies, Inc.), 0x1021, 0xfd100000 / 6
USB Device: Built-in iSight, apple_vendor_id, 0x8501, 0xfd400000 / 5
USB Device: Keyboard Hub, apple_vendor_id, 0x1006, 0xfd300000 / 2
USB Device: Apple Optical USB Mouse, apple_vendor_id, 0x0304, 0xfd330000 / 4
USB Device: Apple Keyboard, apple_vendor_id, 0x0250, 0xfd320000 / 3
USB Device: Bluetooth USB Host Controller, apple_vendor_id, 0x8206, 0x7d100000 / 2
USB Device: IR Receiver, apple_vendor_id, 0x8240, 0x7d200000 / 3

Well my school project is due this week and I'm glad to announce that it is 95% finished.

Well done Icey, good luck finishing it off and handing it in

[EDIT:]

This is very cool  :o
I must admit to being a bit confused about what Mac ports there are, if any??   I've heard people mention AGS games already being cross-platform but as far as I understand it they're not? Not sure of the Linux port, but the only Mac port I know of is the one in the thread in the Tech board which is now abandoned. I think that was a port of AGS 2.72 and from the last comments in that thread it seems it's a Power PC app so is no longer compatible with Mac OS X 10.7 "Lion"

EDIT: I think i'm getting two different ports confused here..I did have the 2.72 Editor running on my Mac previously but I may have managed that using Wine tbh. I'd rather use the latest official version so I use BootCamp. The thread i've linked above is a port of the Engine.

I know a full Mac port of the Engine is probably a long way off so i've kept quiet about wanting this. I couldn't code a port myself so I don't feel it's right to expect this could be done overnight. I'm sure this has been requested countless times anyway so I don't want to add to start another 'me, me, me' discussion :

I don't expect anything release worthy any time soon but kudos to you Nick for attempting this. I have an intel Mac running Lion so if anyone needs any testing done, please please shoot me a PM

While it would tickle me silly to see stuff happening, I don't think the lack of public updates means nothing is happening. I got the impression that discussions are going on behind the scenes and some things, like a seperate forum for dev discussion, were partly waiting on CJ to set things up. I would presume the right people are still in discussions and I see no reason to rush into things.

I haven't played any of the KQ games (gasp) but I have to say i've been following this thread with keen interest. Not having seen these backgrounds before, i'm liking the comparison images a lot. Your graphics are absolutely gorgeous and i'm amazed at how quickly you're weaving your magic to bring them to life :o

I can't add much to what Tabata has already suggested, perhaps only that I find it hard to identify if it's flora (thorns, brambles or similar) framing the relief in the first image or whether it's cracks in the concrete. Looking at the original i'm still not sure, it could go either way. If it's thorns, perhaps a tiny bit more shadow to raise them above the background.

Thoroughly enjoyed it and here's a little review for you (my blog is still undergoing a facelift so apologies if some pages act a bit 'funky')

I tried to cover good and bad points - in my opinion - but I hope I wasn't too harsh. I *am* very impressed with the final product; you've done yourself proud

Oh yeah, I probably should mention that the list contains MASSIVE SPOILERS.

Yeah.. I tried to dump that information as soon as I read it, furiously focusing on the pink soap..

Still, i'm interested to see how you've pulled it off..

Ah you've twisted my arm, I have to play it right now to find out, no excuses!