Forum Restructuring

[Snarky]

So you may have noticed some changes around here.

As he mentioned in a previous thread, CJ has made AGA a server and forum admin (congratulations, AGA!), and as his first order of business he has restructured the forums a bit.

This is actually according to a plan the moderators have been kicking around for a while now. Most importantly, you'll see that there are two new forums to discuss development of the AGS engine and editor. Hopefully having all the discussion in a single place will make it easier to organize and execute on the open source efforts. We've moved a number of existing threads over already (if we missed some, you can report it), and over the weekend I'll try to collect the most important information that prospective contributors will want to know into a single sticky post (and if you have any hints/additional info about that, please PM me).

Other changes include putting the two technical help forums together (currently the Beginners Technical Questions is a sub-forum pending a likely merge), and sorting the community and talk forums into one section that is for making and creating things (games, art, etc.) and one that is for discussion and chat. The "Popular Threads" forum is now the Rumpus Room, for persistent topics and some of the sillier threads that might previously have been locked in Gen-Gen (and conversely we'll expect a bit more substance from threads in General Discussion). We'll probably move some of the threads that don't quite fit in there any more to other forums.

There's also a new Recruitment board, which means that you can now have separate recruiting threads for different games, instead of all of them going into one thread (making it hard to find out whether a position has been filled).

Some things will no doubt feel unfamiliar and take some getting used to, but we hope you'll give the new structure a chance. This is not a final thing set in stone for all eternity; not every aspect has been updated, and there are likely to be a few further changes and tweaks coming up. If you do have any comments or suggestions, feel free to offer them here. Your opinion will be heard if not necessarily followed.

[Babar]

Scary changes!

By the way, the Beginner's Tech forum seems to be locked to replies? Also, it may possibly be a bad idea to have the Beginners Tech be a smaller link on the main forum page, and then another click once you've got to the Technical Forums. Ideally, people should think before posting, ask pertinent questions, all that, but...it'd probably streamline use a bit more if it was more obviously accessible on the main page.

[bicilotti]

Nice move, folks!
Good luck, regent AGA!

[Stupot]

Yikes! It's all different!
I like the changes though.  Especially having a dedicated 'Recruitment' thread. That might encourage people to ask for help, and might stop newbies from posting 'I need help' threads in other boards.

I don't think the Beginner's Tech board should be merged with the regular Tech board, because there's quite a difference in level between the two and could scare off newbies.  When I was new (I kinda still am tech-wise) I spent a lot of time in the Beginner's board but didn't dare veture into the main Tech forum for ages.  It was kind of welcoming to have a special place for the basic stuff, and I'm all about making the n00bs feel welcome (before pwning them).

[Construed]

mucho más grande!

[bicilotti]

I don't think the Beginner's Tech board should be merged with the regular Tech board, because there's quite a difference in level between the two and could scare off newbies. 

+1

[AGA]

I'm kinda torn about beginners' tech too, but for the time being it's still there, but locked to new posts.  I basically didn't want to move all the threads over into general tech without being sure it was going to stay that way, since that would have been irreversible.

[Ghost]

It would be nice to keep those old threads indeed; there's some good advice in them, and maybe they could be trimmed sometime.

Nice move all the way around; I like the new structure!

[WHAM]

I like the change, good show!

[selmiak]

prefixes in the tech forum that indicate about which AGS version the question is would be a great addition... That also means that these prefixes should be seen when searching the forums of course.

The change is good and needed, but childboards are *ugh*, or rather *meh*

[Eric]

I spent a lot of time in the Beginner's board but didn't dare veture into the main Tech forum for ages.

This is me, currently.

[Armageddon]

NOOOOOOOOO!!!

Sorry, I'm just so used to having everything lined up perfectly.

I don't like the rumpus room, a lot of those threads belong in adventure talk.

[AGA]

I don't like the rumpus room, a lot of those threads belong in adventure talk.

We're going to try and go through soon and make sure all threads are in the right place.

[straydogstrut]

Yeah this caught me by surprise too..

Good work AGA. I think I like it but it will take some getting used to.

I agree the beginner's tech thread should be more visible on the front of the forum. It seems very developer-oriented with the way things have been moved around and reworded. Not a bad thing - this is obviously the way AGS is going - but I think beginner's (me included!) need a nice friendly visible board.

EDIT: Lol! Changed already! That's what I call service

[AGA]

And beginners' tech is now back where it was, since people apparently do rely on it being separate.

The reason it was hidden away as a child forum was it was being depreciated (and you couldn't actually post there anymore).  However there's obviously more of a demand than we thought.

[Snarky]

Having Beginners Tech as a child board was just a temporary thing while we decided what to do about it. The plan was to merge it with the Technical Help board, but as AGA said he didn't want to do it before he was absolutely sure, because it's irreversible. Good thing he didn't!

The point about making sure it's not too intimidating for newbies was also my only concern about the merge. On the other hand, I don't really think the difference is that clear, you quite often see threads that get posted to (arguably) the wrong one, and the same people help out in both. The moderators felt that it was just additional overhead and could make it more confusing for people deciding where to post, and people looking for answers. OK, let's give that some more consideration...

Perhaps the order of the forum sections may also change in order to make it more non-techie friendly.

There's no plan to delete any posts, either way.

[DoorKnobHandle]

Please move the beginner's technical forum above the advanced one, makes a lot more sense that way to me and it's the way it always was!

Good changes, exciting times!

[FrankT]

Actually this makes things a little more convenient for me! Especially since I was trying to recruit people for assistance.

[Icey]

I can say the best thing yet is the forum for recruitment. I thought that should of been added long before. But at least it's finally here. 

[monkey0506]

I like this. 8) One thing though, there's not a very clear location for suggestions/requests for AGS. I feel that it could reasonably be added to the bug report forum. Something else we definitely need to take a fresh look at is the tracker as well.

[AGA]

I'll probably end up adding a bugzilla type thing for thorough bug reporting. I'd expect it'd be a lot more powerful and easy to manage than CJ's self written thingy.

[Ryan Timothy B]

This caught me off guard at first. For a split second I thought I was in the wrong forum. It's nice though, and I definitely like the recruitment sub-forum.

But now I can only fit half the forum in my screen (that voting thing obviously takes up a lot of space). Is there any chance you could decrease the cell inner padding on the main page to squeeze more in there? It's bloated more than it needs to be.

[Stupot]

@RT - You can collapse any sections that you look at less frequently to make the rest fit on your screen nicely :-)

[selmiak]

and what about finally enabling the normal smf Icons above every post that insert all these [bbtags][/bbtags] on a single click

[Ryan Timothy B]

@RT - You can collapse any sections that you look at less frequently to make the rest fit on your screen nicely :-)

I check out every board. Collapsing them would only slow me down.


Would it not make more sense for Bug Reports to be grouped with AGS Development. Otherwise I can see people posting in the Bug Reports thread "I was playing Space Pool and there is a ghosting effect after the balls get hit" or "Trilby's Notes crashed!".


Also for the recruitment thread. The new thread for the board's rules should be text along with a link. Example:
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
For examples of the Correct Way to Start a Thread, please take a look at the Bovine Intrusion thread at the top of this board.

[tzachs]

I'm lovin' it! 
I agree with monkey, a "feature request" sub-forum is needed, otherwise where would you post it? Bug reports? Technical?

[AGA]

I'll try to work out how to change the cell padding.  It seems SMF's styles aren't that straightforward, so I'll have to poke around.  First I have to get my dev copy of the forums installed though, which is still in progress!

[Andail]

Everything's looking splendid

Let's hope this overhaul can spark some creativity and inspiration, and increase the forum activity a bit. The good kind of activity.

[Atelier]

Thank you to whoever fixed the apostrophe on Beginners' Technical :')

Also, the description of Advanced Technical still says 'bug reports', which might confuse people.

[AGA]

Thank you to whoever fixed the apostrophe on Beginners' Technical :')

Me!  Although I forgot to do Critics Lounge, which I'll do while I'm fixing the Advanced Technical description.

[Ryan Timothy B]

Ooo. I have to mention this because it drives everyone insane.

Let's remove the Text-style spelling completely. Like look at this example. All it does is assume you want You's, etc instead of the letter. Especially when it still does it within a Code segment.

Code: ags

you

you

Actually there is a glitch with it too. When it tries to correct the lowercase "U" into "you", it actually removes the previous character next to it.

[Snarky]

Yes, fuck the text-style spelling filter! I'd rather personally go through and rewrite every txt-speek post.

[AGA]

lol u r all dum

[Andail]

Hey, you were asked to fix a problem and instead you insult people for no apparent reason. Way to go!

[AGA]

Hey, you were asked to fix a problem and instead you insult people for no apparent reason. Way to go!

You've known me for more than ten years now, you should know that's how I roll.

[Ryan Timothy B]

Excellent. Thanks.

That's the end of my requests I believe, other than having a new input box with the Bold, Italics, URL, etc buttons to speed things up. Like all the new SMF forums work. Pressing the Bold button would drop this in the box:  [b][/b]
Or highlighting a segment of text and pressing it would encapsulate the text.

But I can't see you playing around with that too much seeing as this whole forum is on one php file. Unless you update the forum completely - which should probably be done anyway.


Edit: Actually I lied.

Something like the Google Code Prettify to enhance how the [code][/code] segments look would be amazing.

Code: ags

Anything looks better than this drab code box

[AGA]

I will be looking at upgrading to the latest SMF version soon, which should hopefully allow more prettification, AJAX and such.

[RickJ]

I think Bug Reports was better of under AGS support as that would be the place to report bugs in the released versions.    Bugs in development versions would more properly be reported in either Engine or Editor  Development.   

Also there needs to be some rules for developers who post modified versions of the engine or editor.  For example the initial post should be edited to contain abstract,  change log, and link to latest version, the way CJ used to do it.  I would also suggest having some kind of file naming convention be used when people post development versions.   The zip filename perhaps could contain the version of AGS from which the development version was made,  the identity of the developer, and his/her build or version number an whether its engine or editor.   Something like the following is what I have in mind to help keep everything straight:

AGS3.2.1-MONKEY0000-ENG.ZIP
AGS3.2.1-SNAKE0000-EDT.ZIP

[Eric]

I'll try to work out how to change the cell padding.  It seems SMF's styles aren't that straightforward, so I'll have to poke around.  First I have to get my dev copy of the forums installed though, which is still in progress!

I think it's because, as far as I can tell, there is no padding, and the height of the entire table row is determined by the height of the tallest table data cell, which in this case is the one containing three lines that make up the "Last Post" column. If you want the rows to be shorter, you'll have to cut content from that cell, and I don't think that's optimal.

[Khris]

Actually, there's a padding of 5px for all sides "hardcoded" into the source as opposed to the stylesheet. Gotta love Firebug

[Eric]

Haha, I was using Firebug and didn't catch that -- yep, there it is: cellpadding="5". Still, I'd argue that 5px is necessary (keeps text from abutting borders), and wouldn't change the padding.

[AGA]

Given that the right hand column actually looks like:

Today at 18:18
in Re: UNGA needs MUMBA - a...
by Cleanic

currently, we could probably have the "by username" bit on the same line as the topic, given the topic title is truncated anyway.  Which would trim one line per forum.  Plus we could probably reduce all the font sizes by a point or two?

[Ryan Timothy B]

I think Bug Reports was better of under AGS support as that would be the place to report bugs in the released versions.    Bugs in development versions would more properly be reported in either Engine or Editor  Development.

The way I look at it: a bug in the final released version of the editor is still a development issue. 


Also the AGS Support group is now full of Modules/Plugins or help threads to better assist an AGS scripter.
The AGS Development group is now full of anything related to the editor/engine.

Makes sense to me..

[AGA]

What about two distinct forums - one for dev version bugs, and one for official release bugs?  Overkill?

[Snarky]

I'm not sure there even needs to be one forum, so yeah.

Any bugs in AGS (whether release or other build) will have to be fixed by the developers, so I think having the bug reports in the Development section makes the most sense.

[AGA]

So we're getting a lot of database crashes at the moment.  I can't really work out why it's happening, but since I'm hoping to upgrade the forums soon, it shouldn't last too long.  In the meantime, I'm afraid we'll have to live with the random crashes.

[Wyz]

I thought to drop by because of SAB and the whole forum seems to be rearranged!
I'll check it out more thoroughly in a few days but I like what I see so far. 

I'm glad to see things are happening finally now, yaaay!

[AGA]

So apparently the calendar not working was a really simple thing.  For some reason SMF asks you to set a calendar year range, and our was set to 2010 at the latest.  It's now set as 2017, which means it should work for the next five years at least!  If anyone notices any further problems with the calendar, please let me know.

[Atelier]

Woo, Dualnames will be pleased!

[Dualnames]

I tried typing my regard to this fix, but words cannot express the true feelings, I know I bitched a lot about this.
So thanks a lot.

[Stee]

One thing that has always annoyed me with the forum is the community section. Shouldn't  it be at the top?

It's more the general discussion forum. It's common place for this to be at the top of the board.

[Snarky]

If we were to reorder the categories, how about:

AGS Games
Community
Creative Production
AGS Support
AGS Development

I see that as being the order from most general to most specialized (AGS Games is for everyone, even people who don't really use the forums, Community for... you know, then Creative Production and AGS Support for those fine people actually making the games, and AGS Development for that hard core of contributors to AGS itself).

[AGA]

If we were to reorder the categories, how about:

AGS Games
Community
Creative Production
AGS Support
AGS Development

I see that as being the order from most general to most specialized (AGS Games is for everyone, even people who don't really use the forums, Community for... you know, then Creative Production and AGS Support for those fine people actually making the games, and AGS Development for that hard core of contributors to AGS itself).

Done.  We'll see how it goes down.

[Snarky]

Gosh! I just open my mouth, and right away stuff happens. Does this mean I'll have to think things through in the future?

[Dualnames]

Why are we reordering the forums? Frankly, that's a bit annoying. I'm used to browse it in a certain way. Plus AGS Support being first, is the way to go. Several people create accounts to ask for issues or check new games, and the current setup doesn't reflect that. Also now that AGS is open-source, that also seems to bring some new people in the community.

My two cents.

[Stupot]

I quite like this order actually.  It makes more sense to me, especially having have the 'games' section at the top.  Maybe that's because I mostly play the games rather than make them :/

[voh]

Awesome! Will take a bit of getting used to but it flows much more logically this way!

And it's unsettling and inspiring to see things getting done so darn quickly!

[Ryan Timothy B]

Hints and Tips being renamed to Game Hints and Tips? Or is that even necessary?

Oh and I do like the new structuring that Snarky suggested.

[blueskirt]

I salute whoever's idea it was to put every subforums I check every day at the top rather than the very bottom and I weep for the RON subforum for being left all alone down there at the bottom. Also, recruitment dedicated subforum, it was about time, the old thread was a mess.

[RickJ]

I like the restructuring alot.  Here is some additional food for thought, for whatever it's worth.   

AGS Games (for playing games)
   Completed Game Announcements
   AGS Games in Production
   Hints & Tips

Community (for talking and having fun)
   Adventure Related Talk & Chat
   General Discussion
   The Rumpus Room
   Competitions & Activities

Creative Production (for making AGS Games)
   Recruitment
   Artistic Forum (art help, formerly critics lounge)
   Technical Forum (programming help)  (combined Beginner & Advanced)
   Modules & Plugins
   Resources (links to sprites, fonts, & other open source game assets)

Hosted Sites (also for making games)
   Reality-on-the-Norm

AGS Development (for improving AGS)
   Engine Development
   Editor Development
   Bug Reports & Site / Forum Reports

[Armageddon]

Noooo, the old ordering was best, and why is Domes in the competition thread. :'(

[Ryan Timothy B]

Because it's an Activity.
So technically the Guess a Movie thread should be in there too.

[m0ds]

Mm, not a big fan of the new order either. Sorry!

Maybe it'll just take some getting used to, old habits worn in and all that. I think it's important to keep support right at the top.

[Armageddon]

Because it's an Activity.
So technically the Guess a Movie thread should be in there too.

Yes but it's not a contest.

[Gilbert]

Activities in 'Competitions & Activities' aren't necessary to be contests. As long as the activities are approved they can appear in that section.

I know that before the renewal of the forum structure, there were some discussions on how some of the activities are more silly than the other and they didn't even fit in the General forum (I haven't really read the posts yet) and that the Popular Thread forum was not meant to be a grave for such threads. That's why the Rumpus room was born. One such activity was the Guess a Movie thread.

WHAM's game thread was indeed fun and had a lot of participators, so it makes sense to move it to Competitions & Activities. However, personally I didn't find the Movie thread that bad either and I'll say it isn't that bad of an idea to move it also to Competitions & Activities instead of the Rumpus room (again, as I mentioned, I haven't really read the posts to understand enough the reasons why it's considered silly). If this is considered not up-to-standard for Competitions & Activities, I'll say that the classic M$PAINT game isn't anything better and that game was already here at almost the same time this incarnation of the forums were born.

So, I'll suggest either moving the Movie thread to Competitions & Activities (and leave the other more silly ones in Rumpus), or instead move the M$PAINT game to Rumpus.

[Snarky]

OK, so personally my logic was that the Domes & Decision thread involves WHAM making a game and people playing it, live, which fits under the "Creative Production" umbrella.

Grabbing screenshots from different movies and having people guess them isn't (IMO) an activity that involves creative production in the same way, and it's not really a contest, so to me it didn't seem like it fit into that forum.

I personally don't see the "silly" label as being necessarily a negative or a criticism. The Movie thread wasn't moved to The Rumpus Room because it was "bad". The distinction I'm applying as a mod between General Talk and The Rumpus Room is just whether the thread is a conversation/discussion on some topic or not. I hope both forums stay active, and part of the idea of moving the Movie thread to TRR was to use it as an example of the kind of fun things that could go there.

[AGA]

Okay, so whether people approve of the forum layout changing is up for debate.  This aside, are there any bug reports / feature requests / little annoyances anyone wants to point out?

The forums design (and version) will be updated fairly soon, so things will be changing a fair amount again.  However, the core functionality and structure should be unaffected.

[Tartalo]

There are / have been a lot of programs and services that are not part of AGS but are directly related to AGS, and all the information about them is buried among the support questions about development of games with AGS in the Advanced Technical Forum.

I mean things like the Android AGS market, Nimbus/Nexus, AGSarchive, Adventure Game Goddess, Bycicle for Slugs... and surely others that I don't know about.

What about a subforum to give visibility and encourage this ecosystem?

[AGA]

We're trying to avoid adding more sub forums that are unlikely to have widespread use, as it just clutters the place up.  I could maybe add a link to the top of the forums next to the Games link to a separate Resources (or whatever) page, that people could suggest additions to?

[Tartalo]

That would be good too

[WHAM]

My two cents:
1: I was thinking of asking the moderators to move the forum game (currently known as "domes and decisions" until next chapter comes out) to competitions and activities but apparently they beat me to it. Personally, I am honoured by the relocation.  The reason I didn't ask was that I wasn't sure the "game" would quite be worthy of swimming with the big fishes like MAGS and other competitions. Basically this means, to me, that I have started a new activity which the moderators have deemed worthy of being up there in "competitions and activities", that is, with the cool guys.  8)

2: I like the new forum structure. At one point I was worried that the beginners questions and tech forum were moved to the bottom of the forum main page, but with their relocation back at the top of the page, I have no complaints whatsoever. Good job Snarky and AGA and whomever else might be doing all the hard work here! It is appreciated!

EDIT:
My third cent: The facebook feature sounds good as well. As long as it's nothing overcomplicated, but like AGA said, some bouncers that allow you to promote threads/posts/games directly on facebook would be absolutely awesome, and a welcome sign of the modernization of the AGS community. We can be retro without being cavemen

SECOND EDIT: Oh wait, apparently the AGS Support section has been moved down on the forum main page again, so strike my second cent for that part. I think the technical support for new AGS users should be the first and foremost thing on the forums, then the games themselves, then the rest in whatever order. Since AGS is a game developement engine first and foremost, the support of that feature should also be the most prominent feature of its community.

[straydogstrut]

I would suggest:

• AGS Games
• AGS Support
• Creative Production
• AGS Development
• Community
• Hosted Sites

I think we have a lot of members (and non-members) who just play AGS games, that's why i'd suggest having it at the top. Yes, AGS is a game development tool and I do agree with the opinion of having AGS Support first too. It was a toss up between the two but i'm thinking about the average user "Charlie". Allow me to indulge in a bit of play acting..

Charlie starts off playing AGS games. She can visit the Games page on the main website but the AGS Games threads are where it's at for the community feel. She gets excited by all the up and coming games and she gets help in the Hints and Tips forum. One day while gushing over Ben Jordan 19 in the Completed Games thread, Charlie thinks "Hey, I could make games like these with my own unique take on it.."

And so she reads the manual (of course she does ) and sets about building her first game. While working on Teh Most Awesmoe Game Evar she has lots of questions. Where does she turn? To the AGS Support boards while are helpfully placed right under AGS Games. She bombards the boards with questions, most of which are answered by Khris She also tries out some plugins and the barrage of questions continues.

Pretty soon she's getting a handle on the code, but her game could really use more than programmer art. Charlie did some drawing at school but she hasn't used anything on the computer other than Microsoft Paint. What tablet should she buy if at all? How does she create a walk cycle? Which paint package is the best? Does the perspective in this room look off? Do I have to draw clothes on my main character? Charlie has lots of questions..and she posts them in the Creative Production boards.

Charlie pushes through and releases her first game. She can now call herself a 'developer'. She sets about on her second game, and her third, and she's learning all the time. She's well known around the boards and helps out in the AGS Support boards. Being a regular user of AGS, she starts noticing some things that just don't work right, and other ways that things could be improved. She's no uber coder but she wants to contribute to the development of AGS..and so finds herself in the AGS Development boards, suggesting new features and reporting bugs.

It's been a long journey, but an enjoyable one, made all the more merry by shenanigans of the Community boards found near the bottom of the forum. Oh and that ROTN thing that she really needs to study up on..

Disclaimer: In the end it doesn't really matter, we'll all get to grips with whatever order is settled on. It's all good 8)
Disclaimer 2: The events portrayed above are pure fiction and in no way representative of my own AGS Journey. I'm also not a girl called "Charlie" despite what the rumours say..

[WHAM]

I'm also not a girl called "Charlie" despite what the rumours say..

Charlie is a boys name! >_<'

[straydogstrut]

I asked the future Mrs straydogstrut for a boys/girls name and the first thing she said was 'Charlie'. I also have a friend called Charlie and she's a girl last time I checked*

*Oh god, i'm digging myself a hole here..

[Hudders]

As enjoyable as that romp was, I don't think it's particularly true.

As I see it, there are three distinct use cases of the forums:

* User A, a new user who played an AGS game and wants hints / support.
* User B, a new user who wants to start making his / her own games.
* User C, an existing user.

Whilst User A might be restricted by the format of the forums and needs the games and support forums to be obvious, Users B and C are going to use all the forums and aren't going to journey through them in a structured manner. It doesn't really matter to either of them how the forums are arranged, as long as it's easy to find what they're looking for.

[straydogstrut]

As I see it, there are three distinct use cases of the forums:

* User A, a new user who played an AGS game and wants hints / support.
* User B, a new user who wants to start making his / her own games.
* User C, an existing user.

[...]
It doesn't really matter to either of them how the forums are arranged, as long as it's easy to find what they're looking for.

For the record, I do agree with you on all points. Well said

[Ryan Timothy B]

Don't forget to add the useful tips when you click to start a new post in the recruitment section.

Like:
Read the BOARD RULES on recruitment.
Subject Example: Bovine Intrusion - Looking for: Animators, Musician
Don't forget to edit your post changing the Subject to add: [Position Filled]  to let the moderators know to lock the thread.

etc..

[AGA]

Don't forget to add the useful tips when you click to start a new post in the recruitment section.

Like:
Read the BOARD RULES on recruitment.
Subject Example: Bovine Intrusion - Looking for: Animators, Musician
Don't forget to edit your post changing the Subject to add: [Position Filled]  to let the moderators know to lock the thread.

etc..

I've asked the relevant moderators for all the forums to come up with (or update) those things for their own forums.  However, if anyone else has any suggestions, I'm willing to consider them.

[Ryan Timothy B]

I didn't realize it could be done on a moderator level. Just in case you didn't know what I was talking about, I meant the rules that show up between the Subject and Message within the Message Icon when you're posting a new thread.

[AGA]

Yes, I know what you mean; they also show up above the quick reply box at the bottom of each thread. The moderators can't change them, I meant for them to give me the text and formatting, and I'd update them on the server.

[Atelier]

I just noticed the remove/lock topic feature now. That will be very useful, thanks!

[AGA]

As the giant header says, the forums will be down for upgrades from 18:30 BST tomorrow.  Don't freak out!

[steptoe]

It's about time that there was a 'Forum will be down' notice.

Saves us pulling our hair out 

cheers

steptoe

[Tabata]

Saves us pulling our hair out 

:o

So you still have left some hair to be pulled out after the last downtimes?
                                           
I am deeply impressed!

[Stee]

Please tapatalk the forums.

If this doesn't happen I'll probably cry  :'(