Expressing Atheism

Started by evenwolf, Tue 31/07/2007 09:33:30

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lo_res_man

Well now you tell me. ;) Yes I was certain that's what you meant, but I still feel that saying 'try' is a rather unscientific way of putting it. And though I may not have formal scientific training, I don't think myself guilty of 'pedantry' ( which is a know it all way of calling someone a know it all) correct me if I'm wrong
†Å"There is much pleasure to be gained from useless knowledge.†
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Rui 'Trovatore' Pires

Lo_res_man - For my part, I am sorry that I have been offensive to you and to any other believers who feel it unjust to "lump it all into the same bag", my apologies. However, your view of God is interesting - a friend of mine believes in an entity, who is not God, who has pre-destined some major points of our life, but who doesn't give a toss about what we do - he watches, but he will do nothing about anything. Which is a less comforting version of your God, but rather similar, all the same.

Which illustrates my tendency to lump it all in the same bag. Still, I am occasionally reminded, like this, that not everybody is as "cold" as I am towards these things, and say things that offend other people. So again - my apologies, please don't feel offended, you or anyone else. EVeryone needs a belief. Mine happens not to be in any "entity out there", so it's easy to forget how comforting such an entity can be to someone else.

And I didn't say, or at least didn't mean to say, that an entity would magically clear you of doubts and hardships... but it does give you something to cling on. When BAD something happens, we'll always ask WHY. And it's always better to believe there's a *reason*, and where there's an entity there's a reason, even if the reason is just because. It's just that if you *don't* believe in any entity, you're left with no explanation at all.

QuoteFate/destiny is the excuse people give to make themselves feel less stupid when they f*ck up or if something doesn't go to plan.

When I usually come across it, Fate is rather said to be the originator of that little coincidence that turned your life around... but in any case, I'm tempted to agree with you, only I wouldn't have put it that way. ;)

QuoteI don't think fate/destiny and God can be lumped in the same bag... as LRM says, God promotes free will.  But I don't believe in him either so my bag is pretty empty.

Some would say that Destiny does, as well. Some would believe that some points of your life are marked, but in-between those points, you do whatever you like. It's a fair definition of Destiny, and a point at which distinctions get hazy. In order for it to be *meant*, there must be someone who *means it to happen* - logically. Therefore, we have an entity. An entity who promotes free will. And we'll never really know how much of our life was "planned" and how much space we filled in, by ourselves, between the blanks.

See? I just merged Destiny and God into one. Not a theological discussion here, just a couple of logical arguments.

Re evolution - ah, I thought this would happen. :) Seeing evolution's scientific side is interesting, sure, but I'd urge you to apply it to everything else. To your own personal development - you have evolved, have been ever since you were born. Everyone else has, as well. At that point in time where you go "If I could go back in time I'd do THAT a different way..." is sad, and it's a LIE. If you DID do it a different way, different things would have happened, and you wouldn't be the same person - you'd have evolved a wholly different way.

Re last post (posted while I was typing) - like I said above, who cares about science, let's live! :D
Reach for the moon. Even if you miss, you'll land among the stars.

Kneel. Now.

Never throw chicken at a Leprechaun.

Stupot

Quote from: lo_res_man on Mon 06/08/2007 10:35:52
I don't think myself guilty of 'pedantry' ( which is a know it all way of calling someone a know it all) correct me if I'm wrong

Haha, probably... I had to check Wiktionary to see if it was really a word.

lo_res_man

#143
I'm going to bed this has been fun *yawn*edit: Rui "Trovatore" Pires: I wasn't offended per-say, I just disliked been lumped together into a single group and painted with the same brush. believe me when I say that radical hyper-neo-con 'Christians' freak me out just as much as you. I think beliefs can be worth dying for, but not killing for. that is so wrong its up there with genocide and xenocide to me.
†Å"There is much pleasure to be gained from useless knowledge.†
The Restroom Wall

Rui 'Trovatore' Pires

Oh, glad to hear it. Then you'll also like to know that I wasn't talking about the ways beliefs are expressed - I wasn't talking about churches or groups, just about individual (or group) beliefs. And radical thinking tends to happen more in groups - or, if you rather, radicals tend to find some more radicals, and it's only in the plural that they can really do harm.
Reach for the moon. Even if you miss, you'll land among the stars.

Kneel. Now.

Never throw chicken at a Leprechaun.

Babar

It's a funny thing to combine God with destiny/fate etc. While belief in God (as an omnipotent, omniscient being) would necessarily entail a belief in predestination, that's not really the only way to come up with that belief.

If one were to take the existence of the present universe as a result of a huge chain of combination of causes and effects that goes back right to the beginning, then the future universe would be a continuation of that chain. So in that way, you could say that it's all predestined, set right from the beginning.

In that way, you missed a...hot date because you fell asleep, because you were exhilarated with the knowledge of the hot date to come, because you had fewer hot dates before + you had slept only 5 hours last night because you had, because you had been watching that movie late at night, because you saw and were attracted to it at the video store in the evening,..., because you were born,.....,because the universe expanded from a single point.

Personally, while I suppose that might be true, nobody can possibly ever have all the variables, so it's irrelevant. I'm happy to use the assumption of free will, because my mind works in a way that makes most of the things I do an effect of me wanting to do them.
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Rui 'Trovatore' Pires

Which is what what I call "evolution" is all about. :) We live as we do, as a result of what happened before and what surrounds us now, and we make our own future - a series of choices that interacts with so many other people's lives, in a never-ending chain. As "Anna" said, it might be able to foresee everything if we had all the variables... except that "chance" and "chaos" also exist, therefore making the unpredictable a real part of our lives.

(Babar, it's easy to lump things together when they all mean so little to one, I admit. I wouldn't be able to keep this argument against someone who really diferentiates them. I just wanted to illustrate how little any of those entities mean to me - to the believer it matters, but to the non-believer it's all arguing about angels dancing on the head of a pin*)

*a statement that shows how firmly anchored I am on Christian background, despite my beliefs. Cultural background can leave some artifacts like this, which is mighty fun!
Reach for the moon. Even if you miss, you'll land among the stars.

Kneel. Now.

Never throw chicken at a Leprechaun.

lo_res_man

Maybe god is the one who knows all the varibles. I once made a metiphore were time is like watching a passing a parade through a knot hole while the complete view is overhead
†Å"There is much pleasure to be gained from useless knowledge.†
The Restroom Wall

nick.keane

"Riddle me this, batman!" If all the matter and life in the universe came from god(s)/martha stewart, then where did such (a) god(s) come from?

As a strapping, single young atheist, I theorize that there is no devine proof of, well, devinity! And if there is, well...then

...damnit.
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nick.keane

Actually, I suppose I'm more buddhist than atheist, because I do tend to believe in myself, and promote the belief's of self in others.
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MrColossal

This thread encouraged me to finally get around to partaking in the Blasphemy Challenge. I wanted to do this some months ago but kept putting it off... So here we go!

http://mrcolossal.livejournal.com/10310.html

Hooray!

p.s. nick.keane, edit your posts don't double post.
"This must be a good time to live in, since Eric bothers to stay here at all"-CJ also: ACHTUNG FRANZ!

nick.keane

Yeah, you *say* you wanted to advertise your Blasphemy Challenge flash, but we all know you just posted to nail me for a double reply  ;)

Psyche, you're cool mrColossal, luv ya photoshop tuts!

Quote from: MrColossal on Wed 08/08/2007 06:12:13
This thread encouraged me to finally get around to partaking in the Blasphemy Challenge. I wanted to do this some months ago but kept putting it off... So here we go!

http://mrcolossal.livejournal.com/10310.html

Hooray!

p.s. nick.keane, edit your posts don't double post.
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space boy

Well done eric! That's a nice little animation.

lo_res_man

Quote from: nick.keane on Wed 08/08/2007 06:08:46
"Riddle me this, batman!" If all the matter and life in the universe came from god(s)/martha stewart, then where did such (a) god(s) come from?
As a strapping, single young atheist, I theorize that there is no devine proof of, well, devinity!
I do have theory , though I am sure it would piss most Christians off as well.
Question: Were does energy come from? If it cannot be created or lost, where did the original energy come from?Well suppose universes pop out an inter universal zone, filled with infinite energy, and a 'leak' or maybe 'bubble' in that extra-cosmic flux makes a universe unfold. Well in that infinite energy is infinite randomness,.infinite possibilities emerge, coincidence can grow to literally god like proportions. Just as if we walked down pi long enough we would find  in binary a picture of your mother, same with god. God is a mind that emerged when the infinite noise created a cosmic coincidence. Okay I don't know math so I have no way of proving it,or even expressing it fully, but it makes a mite more sense then god always existing. which is the standard theist response
†Å"There is much pleasure to be gained from useless knowledge.†
The Restroom Wall

Stupot

Yeh.  This universe is big enough to encompass billions of miliion-to-one coincidences.  But each such coincidence seems so unbelievably uncanny (particularly to an ancient race of humans with no scientific knowledge) that it's understandable they put it all down to a divine presence.

If God(s) had never been 'invented' before today, I don't think they would now.  Knowing what we now know about the Earth and the universe the idea of a god would surely seem too ridiculous.  It's only because the idea is embedded in history that people still believe to this day.

LUniqueDan

@MrCol : Nice video :D

OMFSM :Still surprise to have this on major tv :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDB3rHOHu4E&mode=related&search=

Anyway : have the Flying Spaghetti Monster bless you.
"I've... seen things you people wouldn't believe. Destroyed pigeon nests on the roof of the toolshed. I watched dead mice glitter in the dark, near the rain gutter trap.
All those moments... will be lost... in time, like tears... in... rain."

lo_res_man

Unfortunately, your fighting an uphill battle, the idea of  god, wether true or not helps many people cope with  Reality. If the idea something bad is  going to happen to them convinces them to do good, is that not better then them doing nothing at all? I am not saying atheism is morally bankrupt, I am just saying we do not all have the strength of character to say 'because' when we ask ourselves why we make moral choices. Hellfire is great motivator. As well before we get into the whole religion starts wars, I don't think organised atheism has existed long enough for us to have really meaningful data as of yet
†Å"There is much pleasure to be gained from useless knowledge.†
The Restroom Wall

Redwall

QuoteIf the idea something bad is  going to happen to them convinces them to do good, is that not better then them doing nothing at all?

No, it's not.

Ends don't justify means.
aka Nur-ab-sal

"Fixed is not unbroken."

lo_res_man

To use another example then, if a car saves you money, and pollutes less, is it wrong to be it JUST to save money?
†Å"There is much pleasure to be gained from useless knowledge.†
The Restroom Wall

nick.keane

I agree with lo_res_man here.

Im my opinion, a belief is something that gets you through the day. If God(s) is/are something that give(s) you relief, then whether god(s) is/are real or not becomes irrelivant. It's like a guy/girl who pokes his/her nipples with a pencil when he/she becomes a depressed person/horny lesbian.

- If the dude loses his girlfriend, he pokes his nipples
- If the dude is lit on fire, or is fired from work, he pokes his nipples
- If the dude gets abandoned by his family, his friends, and his loyal dog, he pokes his nipples

It doesn't really matter if poking your nipples gets you through the day; the concept of whether it's feasible or not is unimportant, what matters is if the concept means anything to oneself. Other people might agree with nipple-prodding; a rare few might even be moderately offended with giving their udders a quick tug, but even those people have some unorthodox ways of getting through the day that they believe is a normal occurence to them. But in any case, the system works for everyone in it's own way, so I find arguing about the existance of a god to be an endless endeavor, not one to be partaken in by a machine such as myself.

There is also the argument of defining 'good' and 'evil.' Are all things really good? Are people we see as evil truly evil, or do they deserve a chance? (unlike most of the stuff I say, the following sentence is not a joke) A black kid named Frank beat me up and exposed my dick in public in the 1st grade over... get this... a torn calandar - easily reprintable, easily repairable. Do you think I have a vendetta against that kid? No, he was probably abused by his parents. So was the famed serial killer Iceman. No one is truly evil to the core. And who says good people are so good? How do you know they aren't truly doing evil deeds - that compassion isn't an evil deed - when the majority of the world seems willing to believe in blind faith? What if 'good' was actually 'evil' and we didn't know it - feeding the starving means less food for us, giving birth (a sacred ritual of sorts) leads to overpopulation, etc. Not all good is good and not all evil is bad.

Still, in any case, there is no god. Sorry christians  :(.
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