Rape Jokes

[ddq]

I want to have a serious, level-headed discussion about rape jokes, so please keep it civil.

Let me begin by saying two things: first, I think rape is deplorable and hold nothing but contempt for rapists; second, I think rape jokes are freaking hilarious. Not universally of course, but as a form of black comedy, they can bring great humor through well-timed offensiveness. However, I know that it's a popular idea on the Internet that rape jokes are always terrible and that rape is too weighty and sensitive a topic to take so lightly as to joke about it. I definitely respect that opinion, but allow me to illustrate point by point why I don't hold it.

It's all about context: Like I said, I don't think a rape joke is necessarily good or appropriate by the mere merit of being a rape joke. Far from it, in fact. There are certain fora that I personally believe are pretty much universally inappropriate for jokes about rape, particularly those with groups of people you don't know. Twitter I think is one such place since context is often ambiguous, and especially because text isn't great at conveying tone and sarcasm, which I think also eliminates a lot of online text communication. Some areas I do think rape jokes can be appropriate are one-one-one personal interactions if your friends share your interest in offensive humor and comedy, particularly stand-up. The effectiveness, however, is in the hands of the comedian; people like George Carlin and Louis C.K. use rape jokes in such a way to evoke a strong emotional response while at the same time communicating, implicitly or explicitly, that it is just a joke and neither an expression of personal belief nor approval.

Rape jokes are funny because rape is so goddamn awful: They wouldn't be humorous otherwise; as black comedy, their entire point is to offend. I am probably in the 95th percentile in terms of hating rape; I think it's fucking awful. But to say that it is exempt from humor seems to give it more power than it deserves, making it somehow "untouchable". How much worse must rape be than things like racism, murder, the Holocaust, and AIDS to warrant such an exclusion? Maybe it is, I don't know, but the point is that they are all awful and and offensive and that's the point.

There is a very important difference between offending someone and hurting someone: In the words of Penn and Teller (well, just Penn, I guess) nobody has the right not to be offended. By contrast, everyone has the right not to be hurt, or at least I believe so, and rape jokes are actually capable of both. Specifically, they can act as triggers to victims of sexual abuse, prompting panic attacks and extensive emotional trauma in a way that other offensive jokes rarely can. I am of the opinion that in any context where there is a non-negligible chance of someone being hurt by the joke, you shouldn't tell it. "But ddq!" you cry, "what about the stand-up comedy you so adamantly defended?" Well, that's a tricky one, but I sort of think that given the context of stand-up, one should not expect any particular topic to be sacred to the comedian in his or her pursuit of laughs, and that in some cases a comedian's offensive reputation can serve as its own trigger warning. This, I admit is one of my weakest points, and I'd love to hear counter-arguments.

Rape jokes aren't evil, RAPISTS ARE: A common response to this issue is that rape jokes "promote rape culture" or that those who tell them are "rape apologists".  Accusations of being "sexist pigs" abound, ignoring actual intent. The one thing that infuriates me the most is those who joke about rape get way more hate than THE ACTUAL FUCKING RAPISTS. Rape is widely under-reported and far too many rapists never see trial for their horrid crimes. Still though, couldn't the prevalence of rape jokes marginalize the horror of rape and increase acceptance of rape in much the same way homophobic humor promoted homophobia? I don't think so, but I could be wrong, so here's my reasoning. Rape is not about wanting to have sex with someone who won't let you. It is an act of power. A rapist seeks to utterly dominate their victim and exert complete control over them through the use of sexual force. The mindset of a rapist is severely disturbed and could arguably be qualified as a mental disease. My point is, no one, no one is going to think "Man, I really want to have sex with that person but they will not let me, but someone made a joke about it so I guess it's just a funny thing that people do! I'll go rape them now!"

On the other hand...: Immediately countering myself, however, I do believe that rape jokes could increase the tolerance of sexism and sexual assault, which is quite different from rape in terms of mindset and action. However, casual sexism is still a major undercurrent in our culture, and it's not something that will go away easily. A product of sociocultural evolution, the perceived divide between the sexes manifests itself not only as sexism, but through many more subtle avenues as well: why there aren't many women in the maths and sciences, why men are promoted to leadership roles, why boys play with Legos and girls play with Barbies. Things biological differences and neurological predispositions do not adequately explain. Both misogyny and extreme feminism miss the point that we're all human beings who deserve respect, but gender is one of many issues that will hopefully be set right in time.


There are dozens of examples of rape joke controversies, especially recently, and I leave it as an exercise for the reader to go look them up. Essentially though, my whole argument boils down to my two commandments of personal morality: Don't be a dick, and be excellent to each other. In the context of comedy, I think that in some situation, rape jokes can abide by these two rules. While they should be handled with tact, I don't believe that there is anything intrinsically wrong with rape jokes.

discuss

[Armageddon]

Can't say I've ever heard a good rape joke.

[EchosofNezhyt]

Sorry not trying to be rude but I only skimmed through it.
I think as long as its used with good intention a joke about anything can be ok.
But eh I think its along the lines of the dead babies jokes which to me arnt really funny.


This reminds me of a picture I saw today...

[monkey0506]

I think people will take any available chance to be offended by anything. By allowing them to be offended by it, we are supporting a culture where nothing is acceptable because you might step on someone's toes. Some people may actually confuse the idea of taking offense at something and having a personal sense of morality too. I personally see them as completely separate, and people need to take their diapers off and grow a pair.

Doesn't mean I condone rape, but why the hell should it be taboo for me to make light of it?

I will joke about anything. Racism is hilarious. Sexism is hilarious. Always.

A particular "friend"/acquaintance of mine actually does take an offensive amount of offense at my racial jokes because she's of Puerto Rican descent, and is regularly labeled as a "Mexican" (not sure how common such a label might be in other areas, but of course I'm in south-east Texas; I'm sure if it was Florida she'd be Cuban ).

My whole life I've dealt with weight issues, and my whole life I've been told to buck up. If it bothers me so much, I was told to own the issue myself, and then they couldn't hurt me with it. People are regularly taken aback when I'm open about "because I'm fat". They lose their power to try and hurt me with it, and I'm willing to accept the fact that I haven't taken the time to do something about it. So it is what it is.

People, seriously, piss me off. All they ever do is whine and complain.

So, ddq walked into a bar, and I raped him. The end, hahaha.

[kconan]

  I'm with you in that rape jokes can be funny, just like really any topic can be, in the hands up a capable comedian.  The only problem I have with rape jokes is that too many comedians are relying on it these days for shock factor; in podcasts moreso than in their standup act.  So its now becoming a bit unoriginal.

  On the offensiveness...I'm in the camp that only really unfunny jokes have the potential to be offensive.  Louis C.K. and Chris Rock are geniuses that can make anything funny, and both have covered every kind of taboo topic on the planet without too much real-deal controversy outside of the easily outraged people that gasp at anything and aren't smart enough to understand context.  Whereas you have lesser standups, Tracy Morgan (the lame gay joke), Michael Richards (rant against hecklers), etc...that get in trouble simply because their stuff isn't funny.  And if it doesn't get laughs, then people assume it must be mean spirited and then its in the news.  I think to be able to pull off rape, race, and other edgier jokes you have to be a talented comedian or else people can take it the wrong way.  I myself don't take it the wrong way unless its obvious a standup is breaking DDQ's "Don't be a dick" rule and going after non-hecklers.
   

[ddq]

Gee, those Mormons sure are stupid! They wear their stupid underwear and believe a bunch of gold tablets that don't exist! Stupid Mormons, ha ha ha!

...y-you are mormon and i'm not just imagining that right?

[monkey0506]

Haha, yes, you just summed up my entire belief system.

P.S. By bringing that up, you've now turned this into a thread about religion. Good job.

[EchosofNezhyt]

kconan I pretty much 100% agree with you.

Even if it wasn't funny I wouldn't be offended and people just find stuff to complain about.

I can't lie I find alot of the offensive stuff on the internet funny.

Spoiler

[close]

[Ponch]

No joke should be off limits. Even the tasteless ones (especially the tasteless ones). It's fine to censor yourself. It's not fine to censor someone else. If we all reserve the right to silence every opinion / topic we don't agree with, well that won't leave a lot to talk about, will it? Jokes are a great way to deal with uncomfortable topics.

Just don't expect me to laugh. 

[EchosofNezhyt]

No joke should be off limits. Even the tasteless ones (especially the tasteless ones). It's fine to censor yourself. It's not fine to censor someone else. If we all reserve the right to silence every opinion / topic we don't agree with, well that won't leave a lot to talk about, will it? Jokes are a great way to deal with uncomfortable topics.

Just don't expect me to laugh. 

I played some of your barn runner games. I figured that was your view.

[monkey0506]

@Frito Master: Oh, if only that were still the way! Truth be told I've got my eye on one that I wouldn't mind adding to the collection.

Edit: Hey, what? You made light of something that is important to me by taking things out of context and playing on stereotypes for a cheap laugh...and I didn't start The Crusades all over again. Oh, crap. (See, I'm actually of the stand that nothing should be off limits for jokes, especially ill-conceived ones)

[EchosofNezhyt]

Its ok.

If it makes you feel any better I'm a greasy wop.

[Stupot]

The contents aren't really what makes a joke.  The humour lies in the timing, the delivery and the crafting of the gag. Get those right, and it will make me laugh, regardless of the theme.  A good punchline, or piece of delicious wordplay will have me in tears of laughter. Of course the more taboo ones might have that 'I shouldn't laugh' factor, which generally serves to make it slightly funnier, but it has to still be a good joke.  I'm not going to laugh just because of the fact that it's taboo.  When a joke is taboo, but poorly crafted, that's when it becomes gratuitous, and the humour level rapidly drops.

So yeah, rape isn't funny, but a rape joke can be funny, by virtue of being a 'joke'.
Same goes for racism, dead babies and your mum... especially your mum.

[Ryan Timothy B]

I've heard numerous dead baby jokes and I don't quite understand why they're popular.

A couple weeks ago I watched an older episode of Tosh.0 and he joked about 9/11 for some random reason. Something about Marky Mark preventing numerous 9/11's or something of the sort. I did not find it funny and couldn't see why he would want to remind people of 9/11 - especially only for a terrible joke.

Just like once when I heard a lady comedian telling an abortion joke. The audience was already not finding her funny and then she tosses that one on the fire.

Every joke has a time and a place. If you don't deliver it well or have the appropriate audience, it will bomb.

[EchosofNezhyt]

I don't like the Tosh.0 guy.

He just apologized recently for pointing out a lady in the audience and saying wouldn't it be funny if 5 guys just raped her.
or something like that... I saw the article after looking at this thread.

[Snarky]

A couple weeks ago I watched an older episode of Tosh.0 and he joked about 9/11 for some random reason. Something about Marky Mark preventing numerous 9/11's or something of the sort. I did not find it funny and couldn't see why he would want to remind people of 9/11 - especially only for a terrible joke.

Ah, but you probably don't know the context. Mark Wahlberg was supposed to be on one of the planes on 9/11, but missed the flight. A while back he said that he often thinks about it, and about how he would have stopped the terrorists if he was on board:

If I was on that plane with my kids, it wouldn’t have went down like it did. There would have been a lot of blood in that first-class cabin and then me saying, ‘OK, we’re going to land somewhere safely, don’t worry.’

This, obviously, got him a lot of criticism and ridicule. Presumably the Tosh.0 ep was from around that time.

I've no idea whether it was a good joke or not, but it wasn't entirely random.

[Calin Leafshade]

The problem with rape jokes is that they are emblematic of a single incident of torture, Unlike racism or sexism which is more a general thing.

Let's imagine that you tell a rape joke and there is a rape victim listening. You are reminding that person of possibly the worst moment of their lives. Is your joke worth it? It better be a fucking funny joke.
If you take the opinion that "I should be able to say what I want and offend who I want because it's my right to do so" for the purposes of a stupid joke then you are an asshole.

Now, there is an argument to be had about whether or not joking about it reduces it's power but I'm not sure that it's compelling. If you'd been raped and someone told you a silly joke about a clown rapist or something, would it make you think "Oh, how silly i am. The whole thing is just a big joke!"? No, of course it wouldn't. It would just make you shit scared of clowns if you weren't already.

Now compare that will a silly joke about racism. (some) Racist jokes *do* reduce racism's power because they *do* expose the silliness. If I make a joke about how asian people all know kung fu or how black people always steal things then any normal person can objectively seen how stupid and untrue that is, hence the joke. In that case we are laughing at the racists for their stupidity. You can't apply that to rapists because they aren't stupid.

In conclusion, while rape jokes can be funny just by virtue of being a joke, they should be avoided simply because of the dangers associated with them.

[Ryan Timothy B]

Ah, but you probably don't know the context. Mark Wahlberg was supposed to be on one of the planes on 9/11, but missed the flight. A while back he said that he often thinks about it, and about how he would have stopped the terrorists if he was on board

Well that makes much more sense. Maybe if I had known about that I may have thought it was funny.

Odd. I remember hearing Seth Macfarlane got drunk at the airport and also missed his 9/11 flight (apparently the same flight as Marky Mark). It's funny that they both played in the same movie together years afterwards.

Edit Off-topic: Doing quick research on Seth and Marky Mark missing their flight really pulls up some crazy conspiracy sites. Weird people out there.

[Crimson Wizard]

Weirdly enough, I do not remember ever hearing any rape joke, good or bad, at all.

Personally I do not see any difference between "rape" or any other kind of "evil", black humor joke. They are all the same in terms how they may hurt someone who had negative experience, and how their effect depends on situation and audience.

For example, recently I was a witness of awkward situation when a man made some random joke about a prison without knowing that the other man's friend is currently committed to one.

[Tuomas]

I too was just about to ask what's a rape joke? A joke that's rape related? A joke's a joke, some are funny, some not. It seems as if there's a lot of internet peer pressure that comes with these and the dead babies: basically you have to find them funny or else you're posh or a whiney kid. The problem is, most of it isn't even good, I mean, funny. If a joke is funny, people will laugh.

For instance, there's a joke about the island shootings in Norway, around half of my friends found it funny, the other half didn't, and they have a right not to