The (hopefully) last essay on newbie-ism

[Andail]

As somebody said, we kind of need to solve this little situation, and I thought I could write a little paper on the issue.

What we have here is the case of:
1. Newbies not respecting forum policies
2. Oldies not respecting newbies

On which follows a certain desperation among new people to not be referred to as Newbies, as well as oldies being over-defensive.

Now to start with, this community isn't like most other communities, where you gain status and aquire new titles if you just post alot.
To get the AGS "green card" and be fully respected, it's necessary that you contribute to the community in some way.
If you can't make a game, you need to find something else to do.

This community will collapse if we can't keep a balance between feedback provided and feedback received.

While you are new here, it is understandable that you will crave huge amounts of assistance. Making a game is a big project.

Because of this, people who have been here a long time - let's call them veterans - have most likely provided a lot of assistance, not only to newbies but to eachother in fields they are profficient with.
Many of these get no feedback back, sometimes not even a thank you. I see lots of threads in the technical forum that end after some of the veterans solving the problem. Not even a small note whether it worked or not; not the smallest thank you.

A veteran who has spent some years in this place have experienced thousands of newbies starting their carrear with a "Big project, need artist, send me an email"-thread.

Most moderators will have moved a hundred misplaced threads, locked a hundred inappropriate threads and edited a hundred posts with errors in it.

The techies will have provided thousand lines of sample-scripts, searched through thousand lines of scripts that are not theirs, just to find the faulty script line, and they will have a thousand claims in thank yous that they never recieved.

This community is not a workshop or a collective of game-creators anymore, it has become one big help-desk, one big FAQ.
It's a one-way procedure; newbies demanding help, then leaving without a trace.
As it is now, only one per hundred newbies arrive with a good game under their belt.
As it is now, the best way to make sure nobody reads a thread is to call it "Read this before posting".

so....

Everybody has once been a newbie.

When I was a newbie

I was a newbie in June 2001. I pissed of some people, but since I released my first game the day I joined, I don't think I upset too many people.
  Even though I was older than many other members, even though I considered myself a better artist than some others, a better writer than some others, a better political debater than yet some others, I actually had big respect for the oldies. And they were plenty already.
  Summer 2001 is nothing to speak of. Most big titles were already released. RON had several titles out and the Aaron's Epic journey-thread was running.

  Yahtzee had just left. Spyros posted in threads that were not only technical.
  The chit-chat forum was much bigger than the general forum.
  While working with the engine, you pressed the down-arrow to reach a higher number of hotspot or walkable area.
  It could take days before you got any replies on a thread. Visiting the forums more than once daily would have been ludicrous.

  Nobody considered Chrille the prime game-creator.
  Every newbie wanted to do something in the style of Permanent Daylight.
  Helm had more posts than any other with 3000 something; him and Sylpher had already been members for years, along with Gilbert, Spyros and Cornjob, and of course several people that are not with us anymore.
  Pessi wasn't very good an artist.
  Very few people had met in real life.

Then there came a few newbie-waves. The first one early autumn 2001, when many famous members joined (pardon me if I'm mistaken) - AGA, Evenwolf, Dark Stalkey etc.
Next christmas a new wave.
The whole summer 2002 people joined like never before.
But none of those waves reminded of what we are seing now - people joining and leaving in a pace the likes of which none of us have ever seen.

When I was a newbie, I thought to myself "Yes, I am a newbie. Let's not dwell on that too long. Let's hang around, be as little a nuisance as possible, and release more games."

This is how I did not think:
"Bloody stuck-ups, treating me as a newbie. I've been member of dozens of communities before, I don't deserve this."
And I didn't think like this:
"Hm, I'm being treated like a newbie. Let's post alot to get attention. After a while, they will all be so used to see me, they will treat me like an oldie."

Nowadays, I am a semi-oldie. I have some games under my belt, I have provided lots of support, I have carried out several projects, and I have met more AGS-members in real life than any other. I have many, many very close friends within the community.
But I will always know that there is an inner circle that even I am not a part of, and that's the circle of those who were oldies when I joined the forum.

It's the way of the forum.  

Anyhow
Now we have sub-groups, branches of the main community, hords of anonymous faces and new avatars looking back at us as we browse the forums. A forum of strangers, all yearning for recognition, all craving attention, all wanting to be veterans.

As DG stated in a certain - allready infamous - thread; recognition is not about attention or number of posts, it's about of what you have achieved and contributed with to the community.
Secondly, if you really are working on a good game, that would consume time enough to heavily reduce your posting here.

Once, someone said that the best way to start working on your project is to say fare-well to the community, at least for a while.

We were all once newbies, and only time and efforts brought us out of it.
You must accept it. And you must show respect to the veterans, because they built this place.

No, newbies don't have many rights, sadly. No, they can't speak as freely as an oldie, and if there is a fight, the oldie will have the sympathies.
Yes, perhaps newbies are lawless.
Don't cry; this forum is much more newbie-friendly than most other forums out there. This forum is on the contrary rather socialistic.
Your only way out is by work, not by noise. By contributions, not by posts.

You will also be a veteran sooner or later, but in the meanwhile, post less and work more.

Or at least, post less.

[MachineElf]

Very well spoken, Andail, as always! I really recognise myself in that situation, I think we must've joined at about the same time...
This is almost material for a sticky in here (if there were'nt plenty of them already and no one ever reads them anyway...).
Man, I have so much respect for some of you guys right now!

[Jimi]

OK. Can you not give newbies warnings, then after 3 warnings, but no complience, a small ban, then if they come back and still no complience, a pemenent ban.

[Ghormak]

Jimi, I think you would have run out of warnings a few months ago.

[Flippy_D]

As would have I. But I've matured.

I say stick this topic alongside the rules. Maybe an idea would be to make all newbies read this topic before their first post? surely that's implementable.

[Jimi]

Ghormak: I only joined a few months ago, so, yeah.

[Barcik]

Andail, I very much agree with you on that one.

But I think you left out one important point. Newbies (at least the serious ones) tend to mature. Your own example shows it, I know it from my own case, and I have seen it happen to many others. After a while, newbies become calmer, quieter and more familiar with the forum rules.

[Darth Mandarb]

I don't totally disagree with this topic.

I do however, being what you would consider a 'newbie', find that defensive attitudes like that are going to scare off a lot of new users.

While that might be what you want, because they'll post less, this community would be nothing with only 10 or 12 veterans using it.  I wouldn't even call it a community then.

Whether you like it or not threads like this aren't going to solve this issue.  Most of the people who join this board are 14-17 year olds who are going to act like 14-17 year olds.  When you start threads like this you'll just light a fire under their butts and they'll do whatever they want because, in the end, you can't stop them.

I often feel like speaking out when somebody on here types something I disagree with but a vast majority of the time I don't bother because I know full well that it won't make a difference and won't solve a thing.  So why bother?  VERY rarely will you ever find somebody saying "Well I disagreed with you at first ... but you know what?  You're right!  What a change of heart I've had"

Do any of you honestly and truthfully believe that by saying "Stop" that it's actually going to work?  I don't mean that last statement to be antagonistic ... I'm serious.  I really want to know if anybody thinks this'll work.

dm

[JD]

Well written Andail, and I also recognize some stuff. Like about checking the forums.
It could really take a few days before someone would reply to your problem. The community wasn't very big. I will write a small story about my newbie-ism too.

I joined... At least a while before december 2000. Because that's when I released my
first demo. Star Spoof. Well, it was just the intro, but I felt like I had to release something to show people what I was working on. Got some nice feedback on it, even though it was buggy. Later I released the James Bondage demo which was a bit playable, but I've never really released a full game in all those years. I've been trying and trying. I had my share of  complete nonsense posts on the old boards. I can remember my first post, in the technical forum. It was about asking how you move a character that is not the player character to  some other room. It was in the time peeps like Gravity, Yahtzee and Bubba Chump roamed the forums (and later at the start of irc, where 3 peeps was the peak of #ags). I remember when my HDD crashed and I lost the source of my Star Spoof game. I asked CJ if he could decompile the demo, so that I had at least something I could continue work on. He said he'd do it, but he never did heh Ah well, not that it matters much. It's a few years later now and
I still havn't released anything. But one day..... !

That's my story. Oh and sorry about the large sig image, perhaps I'll change it later.

[magintz]

I consider myself an oldie... in a way, I've been aroudn a while. I think that, in my case, I can be slightly intimidated by a lot of the n00bs, as some people have so much talent
But most of the newbies are, well nothing more than newbies, we seem to have made good friends within the comunity, and it being so big, can make it difficult to become friendly with every newbie out there. I do not think that it is a lack of respect for the newbs, but more of a general, not knowing of people.

[FruitTree]

wow
I haven't seen so many good argumented (is that a word ) posts in a long time.

well first of all,
Andaill you're so right, but so is DM being right doesn't solve the problem but atleast we're alot closer to solving it, I guess.
second,
I surely recognize alot of what andail said,
I've been quite an pesty little n00b, very anoying the least.
but (like barcik said) I've matured.
the main reason I was angry at a time and practicly biting your head off was because at that time, I felt misunderstood, I really did! I felt that all these people (who I really liked) weren't giving me the chance to show them what I could do.
and everybody was just disliking me while I really tried to show that I'm a real nice guy (atleast I think I am) that I'm keen to learn, and that most important of all I had so manny stories to tell, so manny ideas to turn into games.
ofcourse there where a few great guys who gave me that chance back then thanks for that, you know who you are
but as magintz said I think the problem lies in not knowing the person who just posted a maybe stupid post.

I am not an oldie
I am not a newbie
I am FruitTree

[Raggit]

What is the definition of an "oldie"

[Trapezoid]

Anyone who's been around longer than you.

[n3tgraph]

I think oldie means amount of respect earned by agssers who are longer member then you

but hey
what do I know

[Trapezoid]

It's almost completely relative. There are probably people who consider me an oldie, and most of them probably haven't been around as long as I. There are people don't consider me an oldie, and they most likely HAVE been around longer than I. I suppose, if who's an oldie is decided democratically, then the more newbies show up, the more oldies are "created".

[Flippy_D]

It's what someone said earlier. Everytime a new active member joins, a new oldbie is created.

Though I don't think age=respect. That said, most of the people who HAVE been here a long time are generally nice blokes who I do respect.

[AGA]

What Flippy_D said is true. The older members do tend to be "nice blokes" because the non-nice people just didn't stick around all this time. There are newbies that I consider nice blokes and there are those I dislike. Hopefully the non-nice ones will eventually fade away, leaving us with a lot of nice guys...

[shitar]

I've been here since December 2001 and I'm still a:
1. Newbie
2. Posts stupid questions
3. One of the dumbest members on this site
4. Cancelled more than 20 projects
5. I don't have a game yet, or a demo
6. Caused alot of personal problems
7. Most hated member next to Y-- "You Know Who"

And I'm not afraid to admit it. I've matured in the past 3 months. My whole family was diagnosed with severe Tuberculosis and Pneumonia. I've had to get a job to provide money for my parents. It's supposed to be the other way around. I hate myself now. I feel somehow guilty.

[gemen]

I have devolved.

I have actually been posting since around april 2001. I contributed a bit (www.angelfire.com/pa5/havokinnovate/havok.html)
Released a demo
Wrote a few tutorials
Answered many questions, believe it or not

Somewhere in the early stages of production on Morovia (my game whose storyline was, to my belief, better than any ags game I have ever played), I moved out of home and into that funny little stage between childhood and adulthood. I of course abandoned the project along with my interest in making games. But I continued to post. I became more newbie like, keeping exclusively to the gen gen forum.

Like I said, I devolved.

[RickJ]

Andail:  Thanks for the thoughtful essay.  I think there is a little too much emphasis on releasing games.   There are many people  here who have contributed immensely without completing a game.  As you said a game can be a big and long project (hehehe, I won't take this opportunity to make an immature comment...).   If someone is actually working on something, (not just farting around and thinking about working on something) then I think that is enough and if that's more or less what you meant then I can agree with you.  

Darth: You make some very good points.  I think young people who find us should be mentored.  We should try to channel their enthausism into productive channels rather trying to supress it.

A PM explaining to a newbie why he or she wasn't well recieved by the community is a usually a much more effective means of persuasion than public chastization, IMHO, of course.

=====

I help people, especially new people, as much as possible, if they are honest and sincere in their requests for help and are willing to work hard to achieve their goals.  

So I guess I would suggest that all we ask of newbies is that they be honest, sincere, and willing to work hard.  Individuals fitting these parameters, it seems to me, would acclimate themselves to our AGS culture soon enough.  

Andail:  Thanks for trying to clear the air a bit and giving us a chance reassure the newer folks that they are welcome.  

========

P.S.  You stop being a newbie when you are no longer irratating to the rest of us .