Are newbies not allowed to debate the things we oldbies used to?

[Nellie]

Just because oldbies have seen these discussion topics before, does that mean newbies shouldn't be allowed to discuss them?  If an oldbie is bored of the topic and thinks it's fruitless, then all they have to do is ignore the thread and let the newbies get on with it.

Why the locky locky?

[AGA]

I think it's more a matter that these recent threads have been cliche internet-wide, not just here on agsforums...

[Darth Mandarb]

I couldn't agree more w/ Nellie.  Just because something's was discussed 2 years ago doesn't mean that those of us who weren't here then shouldn't be allowed to discuss it now.

It may be something that's been discussed all over the internet, but not all of us post on 20 different forums.  Aside from this one I only post on theForce.net and it's certainly not a hot topic over there.

And if a topic is going to be locked because olbies and/or moderators think it's been discussed too much it would only be polite, and responsible, to point to the other thread that discussed the subject.  Rather than locking it with no explanation.

EDIT: And if another thread can't be found of the same topic, then it shouldn't be locked.

cheers,
dm

[Dmitri]

I'm on AGA's side on this one

I'm no oldbie, I've never seen the big discussion on evolution vs Creation

but the topic's been done and died, it always ends in a stalemate in any case. The best arguments arise naturally out of ordinary discussion, not some guy that says "Let's talk about such and such"

if you really want to discuss it, the people at the Jack forums are really into who goes to heaven and hell. I've had a huge argument about why God loves us and why there's a hell, arguments about fate; and hell, I'll wager there's been arguments about how bad people can get into heaven.

jack.keenspace.com <-- Jack is a comic about death and theafterlife, specifically focused around Jack, the grim reaper. The comic has violence, nudity, adult themes, sex scenes, gore, horror and it's bloody traumatising k? So be warned, don't expect a romp through happy bunny fields or anything

[Las Naranjas]

Over the greater expanse of the internet, it's equivalent to talking about the weather.

[Dmitri]

well, if you're looking at the bigger scheme of things, our lives are the equivalent of dust particles in time. this whole universe will eventually wind to nothingness and (to bedrudgingly quote Linkin' park) Nothing really matters.

[Trapezoid]

Why Linkin Park? Queen said it before.

[Dmitri]

because I heard Linkin' Park say it and they didn't quote a further reference in their song

if you really want to go back it was probably Seneca who said it first... but then, I'm not sure when Buddha was supposed to have walked the earth, so I'm not sure.

[Las Naranjas]

I'll go back to Buddy Holly and say "I guess it doesn't matter anymore"

[Pesty]

I know why that thread was locked. It wasn't because "newbies aren't allowed to debate things oldbies did". It was because the thread wasn't made for debating. To quote Scummbuddy's entire post:

I know what you may be thinking (olbies especially), this topic has been done to death. But by using the search function on these forums, no previous topic/thread comes up from the one that I've seen before. This could be due to the fact that Chris purged the forums some time ago in an attempt to increase the speed of the forums. Now, I do know that there are some out there that would like to hear from your mind and your experience, so please, no yelling at this idea, but either post a redirection link to an old one, either on ezboards, or on these forums so that it may be read over again, and if, and only if, some intelligent matter may be added, will it be brought up again.

I don't know why no one read what he said. It was right there in his first post. The thread was made to get links to the old threads.

Another reason is because there is rarely anything new brought into those sort of discussions. When it comes to big topics like that, people refuse to change their ideas or perspectives on them, which always seems to end up with everyone going around and around and around in circles. If you have an idea that no one else has ever mentioned on the topic, then maybe if you start a thread with it it won't get locked.

To summarize, the topic has been done to death. Start a topic with something everyone HASN'T discussed a million times instead, like "Jello Puddin' Pops or Good Humor Choco Tacos?". It's much more interesting, if you ask me.

[DGMacphee]

Newbies aren't allowed to debate the stuff that oldbies debate, cause the stuff oldies used to debate was garbage.  

[shitar]

 I partially am on nellies side but then I jump over to DGM's side. Basically, I WAS THE ONE who was going to post the third annual C vs. E topic, BUT I was smart enough to check what other people thought about it on IRC and therefore cancelled posting the thread.

[MrColossal]

mitar... did you read scummbuddy's post at all?

did you read pesty's post at all?

[DGMacphee]

Not only that, my post was a joke.

Anyone jumping on my side is a twit, like me.

[taryuu]

yeah screw those noobs, why should they be allowed to talk about anything?  they should just be happy they get to read what we say.

ps queen rocks, and linkin park sucks

[Nellie]

The Creation vs Evolution thread was partly the trigger for this thread (the mp3 thread being the other part).  Whatever Scummbuddy's intent (which I did read), the response to these threads made me realise that even if a newbie were to post a new Creation vs Evolution thread, it would get locked.  That's why I started this thread.

If the sole purpose of forum debates were to reach a resolution to the issue, then I would agree with you all wholeheartedly.  In fact, most 'big issues' that get debated will (as some people have pointed out) never ever reach any sort of resolution.  However, the debates exist for a wider variety of reasons than to find an ultimate answer.

Firstly, debates within a community help us to learn more about our peers within that community.  We learn what they think about certain important issues, and also how they think, which is also interesting.  This is why I don't think the 'go to a different community if you want to debate X' argument works.  If I wanted to debate a big issue, my first choice would be to debate it here, in my 'home' community.  I know (and like) you people more than in any of the other communities I visit, and so am naturally more interested in what your take on the matter is.

Secondly, a debate that cannot reach a resolution is not automatically fruitless.  There are still interesting ideas to be heard along the way.  For example, in one of the Creation vs Evolution debates on Ezboard, Helm told us of the 'Can God create a rock so heavy he is unable to lift it?' objection to the concept of omnipotence.  I can't remember any of the other points made in that debate, but I remember that one, because it was a way of looking at the issue that I'd never encountered before.  This idea stuck in my head, and I'm damn glad I was part of that debate, because I would never have been exposed to the idea otherwise.  Debates don't exist purely in the pursuit of a resolution, but also as a way of sharing ideas.

Thirdly, a debate forces you to put your opinion across in a concise and readable manner (otherwise few people will be arsed to read and respond).  A worthwhile bit of practice for anybody in their life, and one of the benefits of being on a forum.

The bottom line is, I used to participate in (and enjoy) 'big issue' debates on Ezboard.  I learned a lot about my fellow forum members, and took some ideas from the debates that I would probably never have encountered otherwise.  Now when newbies want to do the same thing, we lock their thread.  That makes me uncomfortable (do as we say, not as we used to do ourselves...).

If we find a topic a cliche, or dislike the resolution-less aspect, or are fed up because it's been done before here so many times, all we have to do is...  ignore the thread.  Let the people who don't think those things get on with the debate.

So I ask again, why the locky locky?

[Andail]

There is a scenario - if you stretch this argument a bit - where the same thread is started each week by new members, because they didn't get a chance to partake in the previous ones.
Then we have a situation where "old" members feel a need to give their two cents each and every time, because they don't want to see the other side gain ground since they're not there to defend it.

Nellie, let's say there was a thread restarted repeatedly about something you really cared much about.
You wouldn't feel any joy in participating after a while, but since there is a public debate going on, you'd still feel the need to defend your stance, which will become tiresome after some 9-10 times.

Additionally, the last creation vs evolution thread was poorly motivated, it didn't bring up any new viewpoints, merely an open invitation for people to start all this tedious arguing once again.

Since the mods know that such a thread will only be frequented by those few people who aren't already fed up by it, thus any worthwile reading is unlikely to take place, they locked it.
Furthermore, such a thread will always result in flaming and name-calling, mainly because it is bloody impossible to change someone's opinions in such a matter.

As people have said, there are entire forums based on these discussions, with people who love to repeat what they've already said a thousand times.

So, if someone brings up a brilliant ingenious point of view - let him/her start that thread.

[Nellie]

There is a scenario - if you stretch this argument a bit - where the same thread is started each week by new members, because they didn't get a chance to partake in the previous ones.

Hehe, true, but I think you should credit me with a little common sense, here .  Of course it would be stupid if these threads were regular, and I would support the locking of a topic that had been discussed recently.  But in the current situation, the last Creation vs Evolution thread is so old it's fallen off the board.

Nellie, let's say there was a thread restarted repeatedly about something you really cared much about.
You wouldn't feel any joy in participating after a while, but since there is a public debate going on, you'd still feel the need to defend your stance, which will become tiresome after some 9-10 times.

Yes, if I had to defend even my most passionate belief every half-a-year or so it would get boring.  But I don't think it would be fair to expect that other people should stop talking about it, just because I'm fed up with it.

Additionally, the last creation vs evolution thread was poorly motivated, it didn't bring up any new viewpoints, merely an open invitation for people to start all this tedious arguing once again.

Since the mods know that such a thread will only be frequented by those few people who aren't already fed up by it, thus any worthwile reading is unlikely to take place, they locked it.

It didn't bring up any new viewpoints to us,  the debate was tedious to us, and none of the reading would be worthwile to usbecause we've seen loads of these threads.  But the forum is not the exclusive domain of us oldbies.  There were plenty of new members then, and now, for whom the debate is still fresh.

Furthermore, such a thread will always result in flaming and name-calling

The thread will carry that risk, as it carried the risk when we used to debate it.  Personally, I can't remember any of the bad-blood that must have gone on in those Ezboard threads, but I do remember the good stuff.  Because of this, I think the benefits outweigh the risk.

The crux of the matter is that we Oldbies are not the only people who exist in this community.  When the big issues were fresh to us, we debated them.  Now the big issues are fresh to new users, and they want to debate them.

The trouble is, although we were able to talk about these things, now that we're the Establishment we've taken that ability away from Newbies.  Isn't there anybody here who thinks that's a tad hypocritical?

[Archangel (aka SoupDragon)]

I think debates such as "creation vs evolution" and "the mp3 debate" should definately be locked. This is because people have too much of themselves invested in these topics to ever be able to reach a compromise, which leads to flame wars, bad feelings, and all kinds of other things. I just don't think it's worth it. And it's not about whether somebody is an oldbie or a newbie, it's about which topics are flagrant flame material.

[Timosity]

How many fingers am I holding up?

That is about as intelligent as a C vs E debate, although some people may guess the right answer no body will ever know if they got it right. so yeah pretty pointless, although Scummy was just trying to get a link, I guess it has probably disappeared, probably for the better.

but on topic in this thread, I think Nellie's point is quite valid, I just think there are too many people that forget they are not moderators, and they cause way many more silly posts than anyone else, if they just didn't post "this is a stupid post" everyone would be more happy and the bandwidth would be saved



3

Edit: That is not how many fingers I was holding up (although it could have been, as i can't remember anyway)[it was a joke about another thread that got deleted{with good cause} that went "1", next post "2"]

[Trapezoid]

We have a nice community. Even loaded questions like "Creation or Evolution?" don't turn into rotten flamewars. It didn't happen last time, and it's not going to happen now. I think the closest thing to a flame war that happens on AGSforums is a few people jokingly insulting a fake troll who is actually one of the regular members masquerading.
Past religious discussions I've seen on this forum have been, in my opinion, very reasonable and restrained. I think we should give ourselves a little more credit.

[mitar at work]

And not once did anybody mention I came up with the idea and started the C vs. E thread, Which was one of the best damn threads on the WHOLE internet that I can remember.

[Nacho]

Ok Mitar... What do you want? A medal for a good thread? Threads are for discussing, not for encourage you when they receive lots of replies.

[MrColossal]

And not once did anybody mention I came up with the idea and started the C vs. E thread, Which was one of the best damn threads on the WHOLE internet that I can remember.

mitar... stop it... who cares? Apparently not a lot of people. If the creation Vs Evolution thread is your ONLY claim to fame in AGS then you better make a freakin' game and THEN people will remember you.

Hmm I wonder who started the first philisophical discussion in ags... gosh i have no idea nor do i care. Who made Larry Vales, Phil Reed. Wow took .00003 seconds to remember that.

And to tell you the truth, the first creationism vs evolution thread was really annoying. It was at least 10 people all saying their view and then trying to debate and lot's of "Now I didn't read the whole thing but...."

No one cares if you started that thread, people care if you make a game

eric

[DGMacphee]

Not only that, it ended with Helm and me at each other's throats.

[Las Naranjas]

and not only that, I remember 3 or 4 C Vs. E threads before mitar's.

Sorry mate.

[Nacho]

Mmmm... I am being witness of that "Finish a game before posting" attitude. Sorry, I don´t share it, maybe because I haven´t finished a game  (Well, a Mags...) but I am developing one, which has about 50 rooms, and all the art has been done. I contribute with posting in critics lounge some of my sprites, I try to help if IMO there is a problem with other people´s art, I attended mittens... Please, stop making differences between members using that. I may agree that there is people who uses this GAME CREATORS community for chatting and posting issues not related to the games, I may agree that there must be a way to decide who is contributing to the community and who´s not. M0ds hasn´t published any game at the moment. The respected member Barcik neither... Helm himslef does not consider he has published a "real" game (his words...).

Let´s be serious, that "finish a game" community does not help to the people developing his first game.

And let me remember you that a person, following that "I´ve finished a game" attitude was brave enough to tell to the others that their threads were trash (and that person has a thread called "King of fruits, my ass!"

With the full respect that Mr. Colossal deserves.

Farlander.

[Pessi]

I agree with Nellie totally, on "Debates don't exist purely in the pursuit of a resolution, but also as a way of sharing ideas."

I realized this a few nights ago, when we we're at my friend's summer cottage. We talked about issues such as the war in Irak, whether crime is essential for society and things like that. It was the first time we talked about such issues, we're no politics you know. And that is what got me into thinking, perhaps it's not the topics of discussion that made it so enjoyable. Maybe it's just the fact that we got to know each other's views and ideas on the matters.

When you talk about weather, you can not present your own ideas. You won't get to share anything, you won't get to know them. It doesn't matter what the topic is, it matters how you discuss it. Take this thread for an example. When I read Darth's, Pestilence's, Nellie's and Andail's posts, I really thought about the last Creation VS. Evolution thread. I mean, people don't agree on all things, but they discuss it in a very thought-out and - considering the circumstances - in polite manner. I get to hear a lot of good ideas, and when I read two sequential posts, from both sides (Nellie - Andail), I really don't know which one is right. However, I get to hear both of their views on the matter and learn more about the situation and how to think of it. And that is why I know where I stand on this issue.

I don't think posts should be locked because they've been discussed before. If they're done to death, then wouldn't they automatically fall down to the next page? If there is something to talk about, then those who are interested can talk and exchange ideas. Those who are sick and tired of the topic will have to find the self-discipline to ignore the post. Even though it might be hard when you see it for many days.

However, what I suggest is: not re-writing the topic of a debate that has been interesting and debated well in the past. If you come up with something that is interesting now and is something that really intriques you and you'd like to know what others think about it - post it.

[Visti]

I wonder if I'm an oldbie or a newbie. Well, I don't frequent the boards much, so I'm probably sorta newbie-ish.

[agsking]

You have been here for a long time and contributed a lot, your an oldbie.
And I couldn't agree with Pessi more.