It's official, California is moron-central

[TheYak]

Link explains it all:
http://www.cnn.com/2003/TECH/ptech/11/26/master.term.reut/index.html

For those too lazy to click: Apparently someone saw some bit of hardware and griped about how discriminatory and racist the Master/Slave designation was.  So, LA county is strongly encouraging hardware manufacturers to change Master/Slave designations.  As to what they'll change it TO?  Your guess is as good as mine.  As someone else said, they could do Primary/Secondary but that would be offensive to school-age kids.    They could try Host and Parasite but we might offend leeches.  

So, it's official.  CA elected Arnold and now this issue.  It's time to get the hell outta here before the idiots completely take over - we already were above our moron-quota.  Something must've happened to tip the scales.

[Domino]

you could always move to New York, but wait, we have Hillary Rodham Clinton as a senator. She's not even from New York!! It just shows how our country is going downhill.

BG is building a rocket ship to rocket off to an unknown planet.

shawn  

[Darth Mandarb]

Sooo ... now people are bitching about Master/Slave huh?  I guess it was just a matter of time.

You know, there's male/female ends of plugs.  Why don't we bitch about that too!

The conclusion I've come to is that people will complain about anything.

"You mean I gotta drink this coffee hot?"

[Squinky]

Here in idaho, we've got a bunch of hills and mountains with names like "Sqauw butte" which I guess is offensive to native americans....

So of course they were changed to something that will probably be offensive to someone else pretty soon...

[TheYak]

Yeah, I heard some bit of news awhile ago about the Gran Tetons being an offensive name.  I don't recall if they'd decided upon a new official name or not.

[DGMacphee]

But what if hardware really does have that kind of relationship?

[shbaz]

Grand Tetons roughly means big titties in French.

[Darth Mandarb]

But what if hardware really does have that kind of relationship?

Good point!  I think we should wait until the hardware complains about the relationship before we change it!

[OneThinkingGal and ._.]

Eeeyikes. Hello, change people instead of changing words and maybe you'll actually do some good.

I think these people really need to get into BDSM. I mean, what is so offensive about a master-slave relationship. Maybe the BDSM community needs to get offended by the fact that they find master-slave offensive.  :

Now then, where did I leave my whip....

Oh and Darth, male and female plugs have analogy to human anatomy. The male plug is the one that gets inserted into the female. Of course...could be offensive to someone out there...

[Timosity]

People are so silly and political correctness has gone way too far, although I was listening to the radio thismorning, an heard something about 'reverse racism',  

It's the most rediculous term as it is descriminating, It should just be termed 'Racism' since it's the same thing from whichever race to another.

These contradictary terms just prove how intolerant the world still is (especially when trying so hard not to be), I don't think it's changed in general in thousands of years, and in some cases it's probably much worse (although it seems to be more about money now, not so much your physical inheritance of genetically enhanced dna [although in some cases that helps you get more financially equiped]). I know most people here are pretty tolerant, but what it comes down to, is it's all California's fault.

Note: It's not really California's fault, but it will be funny when it falls into the Pacific Ocean.

[TheYak]

A comment by another user yielded the following quote from Windows magazine about P.C. PCs:
The P.C. PC
1) Female and male connectors are replaced by non-gender-specific connectors

2) The turbo/slow button is replaced by the turbo/mhz-challenged button.

3) Screen color shall be fixed to include white, black, brown, yellow and red in accordance with the 1990 U.S. Census racial distributions.

4) Software bugs are now features. Fatal software bugs are now special features. A system crash is now an upgrade opportunity.

5) Floppy disk drives are replaced by relaxed disk drives. Hard disk drives are replaced by tumescent disk drives.

6) Each drive's FAT (File Allocation Table) is replaced by its HEFTY (How Each File Takes Yards).

7) BIOS (Basic Input/Output System) is replaced by the BMCES (Basic Mutually Consenting Exchange System.)

8 ) Each dialog box must simultaneously display English, Spanish, Creole, French, German, Japanese, Hindustani, Arabic, Swahili and Texan.

9) The on/off switch must be childproof and capable of being used by those with arthritis.

[remixor]

I can almost guarantee that I'll be the only person here who feels this way, but I do think the master/slave designation should be changed.  Terms like client/server or primary/secondary is more accurate, and don't come with excess baggage.   The difference between things like "male/female" and "primary/secondary" and "master/slave" is that only the third of those carries an inherent negative connotation.  I could explain my point in a lot more detail, but I don't think there'll be much of a point considering I'm already fairly sure everyone has their mind made up already, but I figured I might as well throw my opinion out there.

[Timosity]

They could just change slave to apprentice, and intead of male/female, strapon/female

[n00bie]

Uncle Tom would be rolling in his grave.

[TheYak]

Remix.. I do see your point but really, we're talking about hardware here.  We're talking about terms that were coined (when used with hardware) before civil rights had become commonplace.  There is no negative connotation, at least no more than primary/secondary.  What? One was first and therefore better than the Second?  Not trying to start a flame-war here but primary/secondary or client/server or even host/client do not accurately describe the relationship between IDE devices in that chain.  Master / Slave does.      

Another thought though..  Perhaps Parent/Child might be workable.. or Guardian/dependant.  Only half joking here.. at least the terms would describe the workings without causing too much offense.  

[Esseb]

Just wanted to point out I never thought about Master/Slave's reference to slavery before I read about this. They're just words which fit in the context of harddisks as well.

[OneThinkingGal and ._.]

I can almost guarantee that I'll be the only person here who feels this way, but I do think the master/slave designation should be changed.  Terms like client/server or primary/secondary is more accurate, and don't come with excess baggage.   The difference between things like "male/female" and "primary/secondary" and "master/slave" is that only the third of those carries an inherent negative connotation.  I could explain my point in a lot more detail, but I don't think there'll be much of a point considering I'm already fairly sure everyone has their mind made up already, but I figured I might as well throw my opinion out there.

I don't know...does the hardware mind? And I hate this tendency to 'cleanse' vocabularies so that we can pretend history didn't happen or something. Let's just not use this word and the past will go away and we can all be happy happy again in our state of ignorant bliss. God forbid 50 years from now some kid asks his father 'Daddy, what's a slave?'  : We'd just rather not think about it, which somehow is supposed to magically erase everything.  That seems to be the motivation for these kind of 'renamings', which do nothing to simplify an already ever-changing-at-the-speed-of-light world.

I'm still unclear, who exactly is it offending, aside from that over-politically-correct moron in the article?  

[Darth Mandarb]

You know ... this is unpopular when I say it (perhaps because of the color of my skin) but I'm so sick of the bitching about slavery in America.  For the love of God it was over 200 years ago!  Get the hell over it!!!

This is yet another black/white issue rearing it's ugly head further perpetuating racism in America.  Now the issue has finally made it's way to something as trivial and completely unrelated as computer hardware.  I guess it was just a matter of time.

I'll tell you the problem ... ignorance.

In South Florida there was this woman, Oliphant, who was the supervisor of elections for Broward Country.  She was a complete incompetant bitch!  She fucked everything up but for some reason they just wouldn't get rid of her.  (she's the reason Bush is the president basically).  Then, when they FINALLY did oust the incomp, her sister immediately started bitching that it was because she was black.

From now on, whenever something is denied me (or taken from me) I'm going to start screaming that it's because I'm white.  Hey, it works for all other colors in America!  The fact that, as a white person, I can't do that means that's discrimination against white folk!!!

It's one of the things I like about visiting these forums.  Sure we have ideological head-bumping from time to time but I can't really think of anytime it's degenerated into racial bullshit.  I'm not even sure of what color most here are (and it doesn't matter to me!)

I don't know...does the hardware mind?

Earilier I said, "I think we should wait until the hardware complains about the relationship before we change it!"  I'm glad we agree

And I hate this tendency to 'cleanse' vocabularies so that we can pretend history didn't happen or something.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

]).]v[.

[Barcik]

I think you are being too harsh. All places have that siliness.

[Darth Mandarb]

Barcik - You're right ... it is silly

[OneThinkingGal and ._.]

That's there everywhere, sometimes actually, sometimes percieved.

People feel that they are discriminated on the basis of thier skin colour, place of origin, caste(well in India ), hair colour, looks, body size, and just about anything. Sometimes its real, sometimes its not. You just have to be there to actually judge.

So basically my point being, its not a race thing, its a human thing.

[Alynn]

You know, there's male/female ends of plugs.  Why don't we bitch about that too!

I just have to say as soon as the lesbian and gay communities start bitching because of the above, I will go on a killing spree, but I wont be discriminitory... I'll kill everyone....

[remixor]

I'm still unclear, who exactly is it offending, aside from that over-politically-correct moron in the article?  

Well, interestingly, I worked under a black server admin who was the first person who brought the issue to my attention.  He's not some crazy "black power!" guy either, he just thought the term was unnecessary and not really appropriate.  

I'm pretty sure though that I'm much more liberal than most people here and judging from the responses in this thread it really wouldn't be worth it to respond to them.   There have been many (other) things said in this thread with which I disagree, but they're all things which people tend to have opinions about which are too strong to be worth discussing in a non-related forum.

[Quintaros]

I think its a little silly to be offended by the use of the words Slave and Master in a context that has nothing to do with human slavery.  But its even sillier to resist.  There's no reason not to change the name of a computer component when a large group of people find it offensive.

After the whole CJ!=Christ debacle, I've decided that its easier for me to stop doing potentially offensive things than it is others to stop being offended.

[Las Naranjas]

If it was a choice between rather absurd PC people and those that try to forget events which still have ramifications today, I'd prefer the former.

If we just get over slavery, or crimes against indigenous populaces, why don't we just get over the world wars, or the holocaust, or Vietnam. Sure the country is still fucked by having more craters than the moon and the best part of the arable land destroyed, but I'm over it, like flares, both in the original craze and the revival.

In fact, lets get over Sept. 11th, it was like 2 years ago man! The world moves so quickly with all the news these days, why should we dwell on something when the Euro qualifiers are in the news cycle. Feel free to be unhip, but Paris Hilton's sex tape and Michael Jackson's arrest are where it's at man. If it ain't news, get over it dude!

[quintaros (at work)]

Feel free to be unhip, but Paris Hilton's sex tape and Michael Jackson's arrest are where it's at man.

I must be totally unhip because I have no idea what you are talking about.  I have, however, received a lot of spam lately with something about Hilton's sex tape.  Didn't know what it was about and never opened it.

[Las Naranjas]

Woah dude, you're totally like those people that are living in the past on ANZAC day, or the 11th on November or Thanksgiving.

All that stuff happened, like, ages ago.

[Haddas]

"- California Customer Support speaking. How may I help you?"


Is this insulting to anyone?

[RickJ]

I do think the master/slave designation should be changed.

I disagree. These terms are imbedded far deeper than just disk drives.  You will find such designations on chip labels and in software systems.  It addition to the pervasive use of these terms you will be hard pressed to find a more accurate description of a pair of  electronic devices where on is under the complete control of the other.  

This kind of silliness, if taken seriously, will eventually get someone killed.   I can easily see an accident happen because of vague and confusing labels being used.  

This reminds me of something that happened when I was working for General Electric.  The GE micro-processor boards I used to build control systems with had a signal named "Bushog".  To all of us English speakers at GE the term perfectly described the situation when address and control signals were sent out on the computer bus and no device responded within a reasonable amount of time.   What else would you call it when something is "hogging" the bus?  Then we had French customers to whom "hog" was just a farm animal with tasty meat and had no other connotation as in English.  They asked me  "Yes I know what it does, but why do you call it boos-ogg?".    

So what's the point?  Computers don't give a shit about politics and neither do the engineers that design them.  Terminology is coined that is easy to remember, that is concise, and that accurately and intuitively describes the thing being named.    Client/Server, Primary/Secondary are very different from Master/Slave.  

One could easily make the case that an absurd complaint such is this is offensive.  I would say that it's intent is dodge the real political issues of the day and that the it is casing harm.  Anyone that has enough time to sit around and think this stuff up can't have time to be doing any useful work.  I also find it offensive that people like this are being paid from tax payers' money that could be better spent elsewhere.

So there  

[SSH]

Well,

I think that the reason people get offended is not just "you used the word slave" but  rather the underlying assumptions in the analogy:

For example, a slave on my embedded system bus is so called becasue it is entirely under the control of the master and should not do anything without being told to first. The analogy is obvious. But with real slaves, they were  people who did think for themselves and want to do their own things and have hopes and dreams for their future and for that of their children. That is where the analogy falls down and that is where the descendant of a slave might feel that an offensive over-simplification of the master-slave relationship has been introduced.

On the other hand, the chip I was designing the other day had a revolt becasue the master had raped one of the slaves and the bus slaves tied up the master and escaped the system. So maybe it IS a good analogy!  

[Haddas]

Then how 'bout callin' it Master-Zombie???

[RickJ]

SSH,  Being a chip designer gives you the same perspective as I.  From your comments, perhaps we should be offended because of the misapplication of the terms by those guys some 200 years ago.  

Perhaps the plantation owners should have been called the Primaries and the plantation workers called the Secondaries.  

[Darth Mandarb]

"get over it" does not equal "forget about it".

You should never forget the past, but neither should you live in it.

[OneThinkingGal and ._.]

"get over it" does not equal "forget about it".

You should never forget the past, but neither should you live in it.

Couldn't have put it better. Over-political-correctness with regard to historic terms  is often sweep-under-the-carpet-ness.

[remixor]

"get over it" does not equal "forget about it".

You should never forget the past, but neither should you live in it.

Couldn't have put it better. Over-political-correctness with regard to historic terms  is often sweep-under-the-carpet-ness.

But keeping the terminology is somehow promoting productive or intelligent historical discussion?  

[Darth Mandarb]

I saw a can of white paint on the shelf at Home Depot today.  It had the nerver to say WHITE right on the can!

Now, as a white man, I find this offensive.  Are the paint companies saying I'm like paint?

It's simply rediculous.

Get the frickidy-frack over it!!!

I'm am making light of this.  I can see the point of the original argument.

HOWEVER ...

There are hundreds of thousands of people dying from hunger and starvation daily in the world.  There are millions of homeless.  Millions of people infected with diseases.

There are many MUCH more important things to worry about than a frickin' designation on a computer hard drive which has connotations of something that hasn't existed in over 200 years.

If we focused 1/2 the attention on important matters rather than frivilous bullshit like this, I think frivilous bullshit like this wouldn't matter at all.

(this is, of course, just my opinion)

]).]v[.

[Fuzzpilz]

There are many MUCH more important things to worry about than a frickin' designation on a computer hard drive which has connotations of something that hasn't existed in over 200 years.

I basically agree with your points, and I do think it's absolutely silly to get offended over this, or any, piece of technical terminology (within reasonable limits), but I'd like to point out that the 200 years thing is very, very incorrect.

One, slavery in the US in fact ended much less than 200 years ago - formally, the end was 1865, or 1863 if you count the Emancipation Proclamation (I don't think there's any real reason to do so).

Two, I'm alarmed how many people don't seem to know that that wasn't the only instance of slavery in the history of the world. Slavery has always existed at any point of history you might care to name, probably in a way even before the homo sapiens, and it still exists.

[OneThinkingGal and ._.]

"get over it" does not equal "forget about it".

You should never forget the past, but neither should you live in it.

Couldn't have put it better. Over-political-correctness with regard to historic terms  is often sweep-under-the-carpet-ness.

But keeping the terminology is somehow promoting productive or intelligent historical discussion?  

What is removing the terminology accomplishing?

How is this any different from the 'don't call CJ christ' thing in which you more or less said Wanderlady would have to bear it since none of us meant any offence by it? Do you really think people are calling it 'master-slave' configuration to offend anyone in particular?

The term 'slave' is an analogy(and an accurate desciption) for the function the hardware performs, much like christ was used as an analogy there. I don't see why different rules apply.

[Darth Mandarb]

but I'd like to point out that the 200 years thing is very, very incorrect.
One, slavery in the US in fact ended much less than 200 years ago - formally, the end was 1865, or 1863 if you count the Emancipation Proclamation (I don't think there's any real reason to do so).

I know that  I was just over-emphasizing!  (Which many here know I tend to do sometimes!)

Two, I'm alarmed how many people don't seem to know that that wasn't the only instance of slavery in the history of the world. Slavery has always existed at any point of history you might care to name, probably in a way even before the homo sapiens, and it still exists.

I was wondering if people realized this too.  But that article only commented on slavery in the 19th century so I kept my comments to that topic/era.

I suppose it could be the Jewish community bitchin' about this, "Ramhses ... let the hard drive designation go!!!"  

(nuthin' but love to the Jewish community by the way ... before somebody jumps all over poor ol' DM!!)

[TheYak]

Why is it that the Master/Slave terminology can actually be a topic of debate when it is used in a electronic or mechanical sense?  It's not as though the terminals are colored black and white.  It's not as if the Master cylinder in your car bears the words, "Master Cylinder, Master Race, Born White and Proud!"  It's finding offense where none is intended and where the terms are applicable and fairly accurate.

However, I fill out census forms and answer questionaires.  When completing employment forms or a request for a replacement driver's license, I have to mark "White" (Which I'm not.. I'm more of a tannish-pink) or the supposedly less-offensive term "Caucasian."  I'm never sure whether to mark this since none of my relatives have actually come here from Caucasia.  Technically, I could mark "Native American" being 1/4 Cherokee but I'm not actually registered with a tribe/reservation so I cannot do so, legally.  

Only my opinion, of course, but given the two situations, I believe I have more right to be offended and bitch about my situation than in the thread's example.  Maybe not.  I'll strive to be more open-minded.  Perhaps, eventually, I can be so open-minded that I can accomodate a gentle breeze through my skull.  BTW, this post isn't directed towards any one person but at people in general.  If you're offended by it, I'll be sure not to expect a Winter Holiday present from you.

[Pumaman]

It's almost as if these days people jump at any opportunity to feel offended and hard done by.

A town here last year came close to renaming its Christmas lights to "Festive decorations of a luminous nature" because non-Christians complained that they were offended by people celebrating Christmas.

I just can't help feeling that today's politically correct world with all this talk about aiming for equality in everything, is actually only serving to emphasise how people are different and should be treated differently.

[Darth Mandarb]

I just can't help feeling that today's politically correct world with all this talk about aiming for equality in everything, is actually only serving to emphasise how people are different and should be treated differently.

This has been a theory of mine for some time now.  I hate the term "African American" or "Asian American".  If you live in America you're an American and that should be good enough for you.  I'm not saying you shouldn't be proud of your heritage or that you should forget your ancestry but I'd wager that most "African" Americans have never even been to any country in Africa.  I don't go around calling myself a "European" American.

I think labels and designations such as that only breed seperation.  If you're an American citizen, whether you're black/white/orange/brown/yellow whatever, you're an American.  I don't know if other countries have similar situations as this but it annoys the hell outta me.

I think the foundation of the problem is that Anger/Hate is a far easier emotion to acheive than Happiness/Love.  It's far easier to just get angry and confrontational than it is to accept and work together.  I don't think it's a racial thing, it's just human nature.

Prediction:
When the aliens invade the planet, and all of human-kind must unite to fight off the alien hordes.  I predict that finally we'll realize how petty and insignificant all this bullshit we've fought over truely is and we'll all realize that every man woman and child on this planet is inherantly the same.  Skin color, religious differences, all that doesn't mean shit when you realize that we're all humans ... end of debate.

Then, once the aliens have been defeated and human-kind rejoice in their victory, it'll go back to the way it was in just over a month

[Timosity]

Very wise DM, and I have exactly the same thoughts, of any person in any country, If you were born there, or even if you live there(and you were born elsewhere) but feel you have been there long enough to call it home, then feel free to.

We are all the same race, The Human Race, I just think we forget that we are actually animals and as much as we try to show our inteligence and our control over our instincts, we are still instictual creatures, that haven't changed a lot physically in thousands of years. (just got more technology, our psychology has probably changed, but mainly due to the technology)

I also have thought about that prediction of yours before, but with the opposite ending, they are more advanced, and kill us all, without even thinking they are doing anything wrong <which they wouldn't be>. (like us with animals [although I don't think we're doing anything wrong, we are designed to eat meat, but probably not in the quantities that we do])

If only more people thought like that, and our governments. It would also be cool to eventually be able to just be a Citizen of Earth, but I can see where the problems would lie.

[Haddas]

This reminds me of something they said on VCPR in GTA: Vice City
"If everyone would be naked, we'd have no wars! I can't tell if you're rich or poor, white or black. It doesn't matter because we're all naked!"

[Pesty]

What DM says kinda reminds me of something my sister had mentioned a few weeks ago. It was something along the lines of "Let's say I was born and raised in China or Japan, and then later in life moved to the US. I was born in Asia, but if I went around calling myself an Asian or an Asian American, people would give me looks and tell me I wasn't because I don't look the part. Same with if I were born in Africa. But what else would I call myself? If I didn't move to the US I would still be an Asian or an African, even if I was white."

I think she has a really good point. That's one of the reasons I don't like labels like 'African American'.

[remixor]

I just can't help feeling that today's politically correct world with all this talk about aiming for equality in everything, is actually only serving to emphasise how people are different and should be treated differently.

This has been a theory of mine for some time now.  I hate the term "African American" or "Asian American".  If you live in America you're an American and that should be good enough for you.  I'm not saying you shouldn't be proud of your heritage or that you should forget your ancestry but I'd wager that most "African" Americans have never even been to any country in Africa.  I don't go around calling myself a "European" American.

I think labels and designations such as that only breed seperation.  If you're an American citizen, whether you're black/white/orange/brown/yellow whatever, you're an American.  I don't know if other countries have similar situations as this but it annoys the hell outta me.

I think the foundation of the problem is that Anger/Hate is a far easier emotion to acheive than Happiness/Love.  It's far easier to just get angry and confrontational than it is to accept and work together.  I don't think it's a racial thing, it's just human nature.

Prediction:
When the aliens invade the planet, and all of human-kind must unite to fight off the alien hordes.  I predict that finally we'll realize how petty and insignificant all this bullshit we've fought over truely is and we'll all realize that every man woman and child on this planet is inherantly the same.  Skin color, religious differences, all that doesn't mean shit when you realize that we're all humans ... end of debate.

Then, once the aliens have been defeated and human-kind rejoice in their victory, it'll go back to the way it was in just over a month

It's a lot easier for you not have to to worry about things like calling yourself "European American"--America is still very much white-centric.  African Americans still have black skin, which is still discriminated against whether YOU like it or not.  The deep-rooted race problems in this country are NOT going to go away if people stop calling each other African Americans or anything else.  That has absolutely nothing to do with it.

And Pestilence: The reason you'd get funny looks is because "Asian American" indicates that your descendants were of Asian descent.  You would just have been born to presumably European people in Asia, that's different.  You could still have, say, dual Japanese-American citizenship and if anyone would give you funny looks you could just explain it in about one sentence, or not bother.  I don't see how that has anything to do with the African Americans discussion.  It's not as if any white people are EVER going to move to Africa and have babies, I can guarantee you that.  South Africa is different and people from there call themselves "South African."



I mean, it sounds like people here are just trying to erase racial terms like "African American" and then criticizing the "master/slave" argument for doing the same thing.  I'm doing arguing master/slave because it looks like the thread has shifted, but why does ANYONE think that not calling people "African American" would help anything?  I sure can't imagine what good it would do.

[Pesty]

And Pestilence: The reason you'd get funny looks is because "Asian American" indicates that your descendants were of Asian descent.  You would just have been born to presumably European people in Asia, that's different.  You could still have, say, dual Japanese-American citizenship and if anyone would give you funny looks you could just explain it in about one sentence, or not bother.  I don't see how that has anything to do with the African Americans discussion.  It's not as if any white people are EVER going to move to Africa and have babies, I can guarantee you that.  South Africa is different and people from there call themselves "South African."

I mean, it sounds like people here are just trying to erase racial terms like "African American" and then criticizing the "master/slave" argument for doing the same thing.  I'm doing arguing master/slave because it looks like the thread has shifted, but why does ANYONE think that not calling people "African American" would help anything?  I sure can't imagine what good it would do.

How do you know that "It's not as if any white people are EVER going to move to Africa and have babies"? There was a good chance that I was going to be born in Africa, because my mom was going to get a job there while she was pregnant with me. I would have been a citizen of Africa. There is more to Africa than the places you see on those Christian's Children Fund commericals.

The reason what I said has to do with the conversation is that there's a dichotomy. Why is it okay for someone who's of African descent to be called an 'African American' if they've never lived in Africa, but not okay to call someone who was born and raised in Africa and then moved to the US an 'African American'?

[Darth Mandarb]

Remixor - I wasn't trying to offend anybody.

In my opinion: Racism = Ignorance

You have white folk calling themselves Skin Heads or KKK or whatever who so blindly hate blacks/jews/anybody not white and they're made out to look like scum of the earth.

But you get a group of black people who so blindly hate white people (black panthers, etc) and it's okay 'cause black people used to be slaves in this country.

This is sickening.  These blinded, biggoted, racist groups are ALL ignorant pieces of shit!  Regardless of the color of their skin.  And I don't care if I get labeled a racist for insulting non-white people.

A black comedian can get on stage (Bernie Mac, Chris Rock, etc) or an Asian comedian (Margaret Cho) or an Hispanic (George Lopez) and all of them are just full of racist humor against white folk.  Yet it's unacceptable for a white commedian to make racist jokes while on stage about ANY other race.

This is so hipocritical it makes me sick.

I once went for an interview with a big company (who shall remain nameless) I didn't get the job, they hired a black guy instead.  The guy wasn't quite as qualified as I was, but was very qualified for the job.  It didn't bother me until I requested (from the HR manager) the reason why I wasn't hired.  He said his boss didn't want the black guy shouting about racial discrimination and that's why he was hired over me even though I was more qualified.

So who was discriminated against there?

There's a double standard in America (perhaps the world) that simply must go away.

Stop whining about the past and move on to the future.

Nobody is entitled to anything more because of skin color.

[remixor]

DM: Yes, I'm not disagreeing with you in principle, but the "stand up comedy double standard" is utterly outweighed by the ACTUAL double standard that STILL keeps African Americans at the lowest point of the social ladder.  Your interview example is unfortunate, but that's hardly the norm.   Black people are still much more prejudiced again than any other American group; no other American ethnic group except possibly Native Americans (whose population is so small these days that it's hard to get meaningful numbers on it) is still as silently discriminated against.

Your point about comedians is also inaccurate.  White comedian Sarah Silverman is one of the most popular stand-up comedians today, and her humor is very often racial (ie, making fun of NON-whites), and in Hollywood I'd say non-white stereotypes are MUCH more common than the other way around.

You speak about a double-standard but I think you're only perceiving ONE double standard because it's the one that has directly harmed you.  Believe me, there are other double-standards that are much more long-standing and much more harmful to society.

[Darth Mandarb]

Remixor - I want to clarify that I see your point completely.  After I read my last few posts I realize it sounds very one sided and like I don't consider all sides.  I was just wanting to point out how I see a few things.  So, if I offended anybody I apologize, it wasn't my intention.

I dislike racism in all forms.

I haven't heard of Sara Silverman, but I think it's good that she can make non-white jokes.  That's how it should be.  I mean, it is comedy.  Comedy is supposed to be funny after all!

I think the thing that bugs me most of all about racism is that I can't think of a way to fix the problem.  Because how can you cure ignorance?

[TheYak]

With knowledge.  Unfortunately that doesn't always work.

Remixor, you said something along the lines of: If we want to remove all race-related labels such as African American, how is that any different than them wanting the Master/Slave labels removed?  In a round-about way, this proves the point I was trying to make by posting the article's link in the first place.  The difference . . . The Master/Slave designations are convenient labels for hardware and describe their function.  That is reason #1 why the M/S has nothing to do with race.  Reason #2 As mentioned earlier in this thread, there is still slavery in the world.  There are even countries where there are white slaves to an arab populace (White women bartered for as slaves and/or concubines seems to be the most prevalent that I've read of).  

I wish whole-heartedly that we could remove the titles that classify us by our race.  People want to know, "Well, if a black man is arrested and the PC term African-American isn't even allowed, what do you call them?"   One possible solution, "MAle, approx 23 years of age, driving a blah, blah, blah."  Wait a minute.  That's age discrimination!  Alright, "Male, driving a ____."  What? Sexism!  Okay, "Somebody driving a ____."  What? Driving a BMW, holy shit! That's discriminating against the wealthy!  

So, as in a situation where you're given a suspect discription, describing how to get to a house, etc. we use color.  It's convenient and one of the easiest ways to narrow down possible persons/locations/vehicles.  I wish we were at a period where these colors would make no difference to the person using them.  After all, do you really think less of a person driving a blue car than a silver one?  Unfortunately, it's not possible.  Too many preconceptions, too much ignorance passed down through generations, too many stereotypes passed on by friends/family/media.  What's the solution?  I, for one, say that it doesn't lie in hunting down every non-relevant item that offends a specific group of people.  Let's try to educate our society and erase racism as a factor of determining a person's worth.  However, please, I beg in the name of sanity . . . let's not perpetrate a witch-hunt, I had hoped we'd evolved past that by now.

[Pumaman]

I mean, it sounds like people here are just trying to erase racial terms like "African American" and then criticizing the "master/slave" argument for doing the same thing.  I'm doing arguing master/slave because it looks like the thread has shifted, but why does ANYONE think that not calling people "African American" would help anything?  I sure can't imagine what good it would do.

Because calling somebody "African American" rather than just "American" is emphasising that you think they are different, and should therefore be treated differently. Why? Surely if they're American, then they're American.

The master/slave thing is a completely different argument.

It's not as if any white people are EVER going to move to Africa and have babies, I can guarantee you that.

What?!?!? There are loads of white people who go out to work in Africa, and move there accordingly. Let's not also forget all the white farmers in countries like Zimbabwe who are now being persecuted (but that's a whole different story since their gains were fairly ill-gotten).

I think the thing that bugs me most of all about racism is that I can't think of a way to fix the problem. Because how can you cure ignorance?

It's a virtually impossible task, which can only happen gradually. So long as parents teach their children to hate, there's not much hope for the world.

[DGMacphee]

Yet it's unacceptable for a white commedian to make racist jokes while on stage about ANY other race.

I disagree -- most well-known white comedians make jokes about black people and it's perfectly acceptable.

Lenny Bruce did a whole sketch on 'A Typical White Person's View on How To Relax Coloured Friends at Parties'. (Sample line: 'I want to invite you over to my house but I got a problem. You see, I got a sister. And I hear that you guys... Well, I'll put it a different way: You wouldn't want a jew doin' it to your sister. I don't want no coon doing it to my sister. No offence, you know what I mean.') -- People, both white and black, laughed their asses on this routine.

Robin Williams does heaps of jokes on black people. ('Golf is one of the few sports where a white man can dress like a black pimp and not look bad.') -- This line got big laughs.

Bill Hicks even said the officers that beat up Rodney King had "huge balls" for what they said on trial. (i.e. "It's all on how you look at it") -- Big laughs too!

But such white humour on blacks isn't racist as such -- it merely points out perception issues, just the same as Black humour on white, Hispanic humour on whites, gender humour on the opposite sex, gay humour on straight guys, straight humour on gay guys, etc , etc, etc

And as far as I can see, there is no racism in stand-up -- just a bunch of people pointing out the craziness of the world.

And I don't think the identification of such craziness is ignorance.

And this comes from my experience in doing stand-up, meeting other comics, and listening to comics too.



As for solving the problem of racism, there is one solution:


"All we need is a voluntary, free-spirited, open-ended program of procreative racial deconstruction. Everybody just gotta keep fuckin' everybody 'til they're all the same color."

Amen!!!

[TheYak]

I think I, more or less, agree with what DG says.  Comics are hardly an issue of debate when discussing racism.  They're there to help us laugh; mainly at ourselves.  They use racial humor (which may or may not be ethical) to help us see how idiotic we can be.  There is a subtle difference in the other-than-white comedian versus the white-comedian.  A black comedian can speak about white stereotypes and mock white people openly (using applicable terms).  When a white comedian uses racial humor (at least the majority of them) it's usually self-deprecating and is actually mocking white people for their ignorance.  

I don't want to get into that particular debate again and will just ending by saying that Bullworth (Was that the name of that movie?) had the right idea. In eons to come, we'll all embrace each other as members of the gray race.  

[DGMacphee]

When a white comedian uses racial humor (at least the majority of them) it's usually self-deprecating and is actually mocking white people for their ignorance.

Not always.

Robin Williams speaks on sex advice: "If you want advice on sex, you don't want a tiny little jewish lady (Dr Ruth). You want a large black lady named Dr Roof! You say, 'Dr Roof, I have a small penis, does that make a difference?'. She'll go 'Damn straight, baby! Honey, you can't make butter with a toothpick!"



As for another film hero on the topic of racism:


"There is no racial bigotry here. I do not look down on niggers, kikes, wops or greasers. Here, you are all equally worthless."


EDIT: Once again, I'm adding Maddox to a debate, but his latest article is on racism (and it's a damn good one too):

http://maddox.xmission.com/c.cgi?u=walmart

[Darth Mandarb]

DGM - You make some (as usual) good points.  But as Yak said:

Comics are hardly an issue of debate when discussing racism

And I agree with that also.

And as far as I can see, there is no racism in stand-up -- just a bunch of people pointing out the craziness of the world.

I wish this were 100% true.  I think it should be like this but I think a lot of commedians use the stage as a political soap-box.  While they might disguise their routine as just commedy there's a little more going on behind the scenes.  (just my opinion)

So, as in a situation where you're given a suspect discription, describing how to get to a house, etc. we use color. It's convenient and one of the easiest ways to narrow down possible persons/locations/vehicles

I have this friend Steve (black).  We always talk about racism/biggotry/society/etc and such and I refer to him as "black".  Then one day his cousin Anthony is around and when I referred to Steve being "black" Anthony got ticked off.  Now this is just re-damn-diculous.  What the hell else am I supposed to call him?  "The Brotha"?  (Steve hates the term African America too)

I think everybody just needs to loosen their sphincters and relax on the whole thing.

Like I said earlier (about the alien invasion) we just need something big to happen that would really open everybody's eyes to the fact that we're all basically the same.

Never thought I'd actually hope for an alien invasion

]).]v[.

[Haddas]

Hey! What about Eddie Murphy? He be makin' fun o' white people n' shit, n' everyone always be laughin' at 'em. Even white people... Like Michael Jacksson
Anyone watched "Eddie Murpy: Delerious"?

[DGMacphee]

DGM - You make some (as usual) good points.  But as Yak said:

Comics are hardly an issue of debate when discussing racism

And I agree with that also.

But you were the one who brought it up as an example on discussing racism.

How can you agree with Yak, when you were the one who used comics as an issue of debate on racism?

And as far as I can see, there is no racism in stand-up -- just a bunch of people pointing out the craziness of the world.

I wish this were 100% true.  I think it should be like this but I think a lot of commedians use the stage as a political soap-box.  While they might disguise their routine as just commedy there's a little more going on behind the scenes.  (just my opinion)

Politicians get on soapboxes -- That's because they are directly involved in the political process.

Stand-up comedians are not directly involved -- so, what political soapbox have they got when they have no direct participation in the political arena?

People don't pay $20+ just to listen to some guy blather on about politics and race issues -- They actually expect to be entertained and for the guy to be funny.

From my experience in stand-up comedy, a comic is WAY more interested in finding funny material than trying to create a political agenda.

And the main reason so many comics talk about political matters is because there's so many dipshits running the world and so many stupid things happening in areas of politics.

Even Bill Hicks, one of the most political of comics, was equally critical of both Democrats and Republicans, mainly because both Bush Sr and Clinton made a lot of fuck-ups that were ripe for the picking (Bush Sr on the Gulf War, Clinton on Waco, etc).

Robin Williams was very critical of George W. Bush's presidency and yet found time to entertain the troops stationed in Iraq.

And what political agenda does Jerry Seinfeld have?

You see, people blame insignificant things (be it stand-up comics, language, or double standards) for racist attitudes -- you clearly did so when you said:

A black comedian can get on stage (Bernie Mac, Chris Rock, etc) or an Asian comedian (Margaret Cho) or an Hispanic (George Lopez) and all of them are just full of racist humor against white folk. Yet it's unacceptable for a white commedian to make racist jokes while on stage about ANY other race.

And an alien invasion will not unite whites and blacks in social harmony -- As soon as the alien invasion is over, blacks are still going to be treated the same way before such an invasion.

Look at Sept 11 2001: Racism against black people still exists even two years after the WTC fell.

Thus, an alien invasion will do nothing to help the social standing of black people (Unless the spaceships blow away all the white people! )

Paul D'Amato, a US anti-racism campaigner, writes: "In the U.S., most glaringly, Blacks are treated to worse jobs, housing and education and higher rates of unemployment and police brutality than most whites. Latinos face similar, though somewhat less severe treatment--but often face language discrimination. Women receive lower wages than men and bear most of the burden of work in the home."

(And the situation will still be the same after this hypothetical alien invasion.)

Now, you say we should forget the past and move to the future -- I disagree, because I think people need to examine the past a little more to understand the present situation.

I continue with D'Amato : He states that slavery in the US was born not out of racism but ecomonical conditions i.e. getting cheap slave labour.

The off-shoot of this was that the white working class began to resent the black working class because employers would prefer the cheap labour of the black working class, leaving a lot of white workers unemployed.

Thus, they didn't resent the employers, just the black working class.

Flash-forward to today, where all people are given equal pay for their jobs, right?

Wrong.

I posted this before, and I hope you read it: http://maddox.xmission.com/c.cgi?u=walmart

And, as you can see, angry WASP bigots are still complaining that "outsiders" are stealing American jobs.

Once again, from D'Amato: "The same logic works under capitalism today. If native-born workers can be made to believe that immigrant workers threaten their jobs, if white workers can be made to hate or resent Blacks, if all Americans can be made to think that "foreigners" or "Muslims" are the enemy, and so on, it makes it more difficult for workers and the oppressed to unite." (meaning all working class, black, white, yellow, green, blue, whatever)

"In other words, racist, sexist or xenophobic ideas do not benefit workers and the poor, whatever their race, sex or ethnicity. But they do benefit the exploiters--by making sections of the exploited believe they have common interests with their exploiters based upon having the same language or skin color."

In other words, all these exploiters turn white working class against black working class by making them believe that the result of their poor economical situation was the fault of the black working class, not the exploiters themselves -- And the white working class trusts the exploiters more cause they're white too.

Forget ignorance; the real problem is, and always has been, exploitation.

The rich will continue to exploit the poor, and turn white people against black people.

I am reminded of something you said previously:

Nobody is entitled to anything more because of skin color.

This is true.

However, it is also true that everybody is entitled to the same as everyone else despite the colour of their skin.

And, if you read that Maddox article I posted, you'll see a shitload of non-US native workers not recieving such equality.

Once again, D'Amato: "Treating one part of society worse helps bring down the conditions of all workers. The fact that, for example, women perform necessary labor in the home--raising children, cooking, cleaning--means that capitalists can pay lower wages."

"The antagonism of whites toward Blacks has been the secret by which employers in the South have kept workers from organizing successfully. The fight against racism, therefore, cannot be separated from the class struggle as a whole."

Therefore, to say racism equals ignorance treats racial problems in a very loose-weight fashion, as the real problems stem from capitalistic exploitation.

Now before anyone accuses me of being a "dirty commie" (which I'm not -- I hate the left as much as I hate the right), consider this: I am arguing that all people should be equally  paid and, as I said previously, the majority of working class blacks, hispanics, migrant workers, and women are not paid the same as working class white men.

As D'Amato said previosuly this reduces the standing of these different groups as a whole.

Trying to change double standards won't do a damn thing.

Changing the ecomnomic scale will.

[Darth Mandarb]

I didn't bring up comedy as the main point of arguing racism, I only commented on it to point out my thoughts.

Bill Mahr and Dennis Miller (both commedians) are VERY political.  I'm not saying commedians are politicians, but they do deal with political issues.

You see, people blame insignificant things (be it stand-up comics, language, or double standards) for racist attitudes -- you clearly did so when you said:

A stand up comic can influence attitudes and opinions.  I don't consider that insignificant.

And an alien invasion will not unite whites and blacks in social harmony -- As soon as the alien invasion is over, blacks are still going to be treated the same way before such an invasion.

We agree!!  Like I said earlier, "Then, once the aliens have been defeated and human-kind rejoice in their victory, it'll go back to the way it was in just over a month"

Anyway ... I'm going to stop posting in here because I can see it degenerating into one of those threads that will go on and on and on and never accomplish anything.

I hope nobody got a (more) negative attitude of me.  That wasn't my intention at all.

"There's only two things in this world I can't stand.  Those who are intolerant of other people and their cultures ... and the Dutch."

[TheYak]

Heh.  I wasn't aware that this was the debate thread.. perhaps the title will have to be changed.  

I just thought a certain issue was ridiculous and wanted to hear other opinions.  We got the full range before lapsing into a discussion on racism.  Personally (and I don't know everyone here all that well) I believe that the AGS community, as a whole, doesn't have too much problem with this particular social ill.  That is one of the many reasons I started frequenting the forums.  The community, in general, also seems fairly considerate when dealing with issues of gender, age, sexual preferences and country of origin.  Hooray for us, I say.  There have been some good points here but I think the thread's damned to hell and should probably be shut-off sometime soon.

[DGMacphee]

"There's only two things in this world I can't stand.  Those who are intolerant of other people and their cultures ... and the Dutch."

Hehehe -- very funny, but the only problem is I'm half Dutch!

You oppressive bastard!

[Haddas]

"There's only two things in this world I can't stand.  Those who are intolerant of other people and their cultures ... and the Dutch."

Hehehe -- very funny, but the only problem is I'm half Dutch!

You oppressive bastard!

That's from Austin Powers: Goldmember!!!
DM! You're ORIGINAL!!!1111oneoneone11!!1

[Darth Mandarb]

I believe that the AGS community, as a whole, doesn't have too much problem with this particular social ill.

I feel the same way about these forums.  Everybody is pretty tolerant and open minded about culture/religion/sexism/etc.  Which is awesome.

DG - somehow I just knew you'd be Dutch  (I'm part Dutch myself)

Haddas - I put it in quotes 'cause I didn't want people thinking I was claiming the line as my own

How's this:
"There's only two things in this world I can't stand. Those who are intolerant of other people and their cultures ... and the Dutch." - Austin Powers' Fazja

[AGA]

Haddas, shut the fuck up. You've done nothing but post crap since you first joined (try clicking the link to your profile and choosing 'view all posts'...). Unless you have anything worthwhile to say, just shut up.

[Esseb]

Prediction:
When the aliens invade the planet, and all of human-kind must unite to fight off the alien hordes.  I predict that finally we'll realize how petty and insignificant all this bullshit we've fought over truely is and we'll all realize that every man woman and child on this planet is inherantly the same.  Skin color, religious differences, all that doesn't mean shit when you realize that we're all humans ... end of debate.

We need a race us humans can unite against in order to get rid of racism? Brilliant.

[Darth Mandarb]

Esseb - I was wondering if anybody would pick up on that.

10 points for you

But the main point I was trying to make would be that human kind needs a greater 'threat' that would cause them to unite.  How about if the aliens were robots?

Everybody hates robots

** DM you discriminatin' ass-hole!!! **  

[SSH]

Prediction:
When the aliens invade the planet, and all of human-kind must unite to fight off the alien hordes.  I predict that finally we'll realize how petty and insignificant all this bullshit we've fought over truely is and we'll all realize that every man woman and child on this planet is inherantly the same.  Skin color, religious differences, all that doesn't mean shit when you realize that we're all humans ... end of debate.

We need a race us humans can unite against in order to get rid of racism? Brilliant.

Based on human history, we'd probably obliterate 90% of them and steal most of their planet before realising that they only had peaceful intentions originally, at which point we'd stop taking more, but still wouldn't give back what we had already taken.

[Pumaman]

But the main point I was trying to make would be that human kind needs a greater 'threat' that would cause them to unite. How about if the aliens were robots?

Indeed. The second world war did a lot for women's equality, when many started working for the first time making ammunition because all the men were too busy fighting.

Of course, quite why only the men went out fighting and the women got to stay at home making weapons is another story of discrimination

[Las Naranjas]

I'd say the 1 st World War was more influential in that regard, but it wasn't really work for the first time. Vast numbers of women already worked through sheer economic necessity in the domestic sector and selected areas of others, like Textiles.

The main change the war brought about was necessitating entry into heavier industries and allowing middle class women to have a lark at a clerical job, which ended up having more influence because poor people can work for a long time without it being considered anything, but a rich woman....

[Pumaman]

I'm sure you're right, it's been a long time since I did history at school... and it was also the one subject I failed  

[AGA]

And geography presumably... "Jones, what is Australia's primary export?" "Fosters sir! Lovely Fosters!"

[Pumaman]

Luckily the geography examiner was a young, dynamic Fosters drinker too.  

[Goldmund]

It's interesting how revolutions can become passe in a pompous and irritating manner.
On my seminar on "body in culture" we've been watching a documentary about a woman who fought for contraception in USA. She smuggled diaphragms in wooden boxes that contained the smuggled rum (it was the period of the prohibition).
At one point there is a scene in the movie when wooden boxes with diaphragms inside float on waves, all this accompanied by extremely lofty piano music and the commentary: "This was when first diaphragms appeared in USA".
It's as if those stupid diaphragms were kind of pilgrims sailing on their rum-box miniature Mayflowers to the New Land.

[Joelman]

THATS IT! i love being in California, but i'm sick of californians. lol. so i decided I'm taking over the world. so from now on when anyone says somethiong is offensive we shall call them a blatantly racist name and walk away. we wont have to rename stuff, so we wont have to change maps every year. racism will stop because everyone will be like, ok, were different. and deal with it. :^)
lol the people of earth are so going to kill me