It's official, California is moron-central

[Pumaman]

It's almost as if these days people jump at any opportunity to feel offended and hard done by.

A town here last year came close to renaming its Christmas lights to "Festive decorations of a luminous nature" because non-Christians complained that they were offended by people celebrating Christmas.

I just can't help feeling that today's politically correct world with all this talk about aiming for equality in everything, is actually only serving to emphasise how people are different and should be treated differently.

[Darth Mandarb]

I just can't help feeling that today's politically correct world with all this talk about aiming for equality in everything, is actually only serving to emphasise how people are different and should be treated differently.

This has been a theory of mine for some time now.  I hate the term "African American" or "Asian American".  If you live in America you're an American and that should be good enough for you.  I'm not saying you shouldn't be proud of your heritage or that you should forget your ancestry but I'd wager that most "African" Americans have never even been to any country in Africa.  I don't go around calling myself a "European" American.

I think labels and designations such as that only breed seperation.  If you're an American citizen, whether you're black/white/orange/brown/yellow whatever, you're an American.  I don't know if other countries have similar situations as this but it annoys the hell outta me.

I think the foundation of the problem is that Anger/Hate is a far easier emotion to acheive than Happiness/Love.  It's far easier to just get angry and confrontational than it is to accept and work together.  I don't think it's a racial thing, it's just human nature.

Prediction:
When the aliens invade the planet, and all of human-kind must unite to fight off the alien hordes.  I predict that finally we'll realize how petty and insignificant all this bullshit we've fought over truely is and we'll all realize that every man woman and child on this planet is inherantly the same.  Skin color, religious differences, all that doesn't mean shit when you realize that we're all humans ... end of debate.

Then, once the aliens have been defeated and human-kind rejoice in their victory, it'll go back to the way it was in just over a month

[Timosity]

Very wise DM, and I have exactly the same thoughts, of any person in any country, If you were born there, or even if you live there(and you were born elsewhere) but feel you have been there long enough to call it home, then feel free to.

We are all the same race, The Human Race, I just think we forget that we are actually animals and as much as we try to show our inteligence and our control over our instincts, we are still instictual creatures, that haven't changed a lot physically in thousands of years. (just got more technology, our psychology has probably changed, but mainly due to the technology)

I also have thought about that prediction of yours before, but with the opposite ending, they are more advanced, and kill us all, without even thinking they are doing anything wrong <which they wouldn't be>. (like us with animals [although I don't think we're doing anything wrong, we are designed to eat meat, but probably not in the quantities that we do])

If only more people thought like that, and our governments. It would also be cool to eventually be able to just be a Citizen of Earth, but I can see where the problems would lie.

[Haddas]

This reminds me of something they said on VCPR in GTA: Vice City
"If everyone would be naked, we'd have no wars! I can't tell if you're rich or poor, white or black. It doesn't matter because we're all naked!"

[Pesty]

What DM says kinda reminds me of something my sister had mentioned a few weeks ago. It was something along the lines of "Let's say I was born and raised in China or Japan, and then later in life moved to the US. I was born in Asia, but if I went around calling myself an Asian or an Asian American, people would give me looks and tell me I wasn't because I don't look the part. Same with if I were born in Africa. But what else would I call myself? If I didn't move to the US I would still be an Asian or an African, even if I was white."

I think she has a really good point. That's one of the reasons I don't like labels like 'African American'.

[remixor]

I just can't help feeling that today's politically correct world with all this talk about aiming for equality in everything, is actually only serving to emphasise how people are different and should be treated differently.

This has been a theory of mine for some time now.  I hate the term "African American" or "Asian American".  If you live in America you're an American and that should be good enough for you.  I'm not saying you shouldn't be proud of your heritage or that you should forget your ancestry but I'd wager that most "African" Americans have never even been to any country in Africa.  I don't go around calling myself a "European" American.

I think labels and designations such as that only breed seperation.  If you're an American citizen, whether you're black/white/orange/brown/yellow whatever, you're an American.  I don't know if other countries have similar situations as this but it annoys the hell outta me.

I think the foundation of the problem is that Anger/Hate is a far easier emotion to acheive than Happiness/Love.  It's far easier to just get angry and confrontational than it is to accept and work together.  I don't think it's a racial thing, it's just human nature.

Prediction:
When the aliens invade the planet, and all of human-kind must unite to fight off the alien hordes.  I predict that finally we'll realize how petty and insignificant all this bullshit we've fought over truely is and we'll all realize that every man woman and child on this planet is inherantly the same.  Skin color, religious differences, all that doesn't mean shit when you realize that we're all humans ... end of debate.

Then, once the aliens have been defeated and human-kind rejoice in their victory, it'll go back to the way it was in just over a month

It's a lot easier for you not have to to worry about things like calling yourself "European American"--America is still very much white-centric.  African Americans still have black skin, which is still discriminated against whether YOU like it or not.  The deep-rooted race problems in this country are NOT going to go away if people stop calling each other African Americans or anything else.  That has absolutely nothing to do with it.

And Pestilence: The reason you'd get funny looks is because "Asian American" indicates that your descendants were of Asian descent.  You would just have been born to presumably European people in Asia, that's different.  You could still have, say, dual Japanese-American citizenship and if anyone would give you funny looks you could just explain it in about one sentence, or not bother.  I don't see how that has anything to do with the African Americans discussion.  It's not as if any white people are EVER going to move to Africa and have babies, I can guarantee you that.  South Africa is different and people from there call themselves "South African."



I mean, it sounds like people here are just trying to erase racial terms like "African American" and then criticizing the "master/slave" argument for doing the same thing.  I'm doing arguing master/slave because it looks like the thread has shifted, but why does ANYONE think that not calling people "African American" would help anything?  I sure can't imagine what good it would do.

[Pesty]

And Pestilence: The reason you'd get funny looks is because "Asian American" indicates that your descendants were of Asian descent.  You would just have been born to presumably European people in Asia, that's different.  You could still have, say, dual Japanese-American citizenship and if anyone would give you funny looks you could just explain it in about one sentence, or not bother.  I don't see how that has anything to do with the African Americans discussion.  It's not as if any white people are EVER going to move to Africa and have babies, I can guarantee you that.  South Africa is different and people from there call themselves "South African."

I mean, it sounds like people here are just trying to erase racial terms like "African American" and then criticizing the "master/slave" argument for doing the same thing.  I'm doing arguing master/slave because it looks like the thread has shifted, but why does ANYONE think that not calling people "African American" would help anything?  I sure can't imagine what good it would do.

How do you know that "It's not as if any white people are EVER going to move to Africa and have babies"? There was a good chance that I was going to be born in Africa, because my mom was going to get a job there while she was pregnant with me. I would have been a citizen of Africa. There is more to Africa than the places you see on those Christian's Children Fund commericals.

The reason what I said has to do with the conversation is that there's a dichotomy. Why is it okay for someone who's of African descent to be called an 'African American' if they've never lived in Africa, but not okay to call someone who was born and raised in Africa and then moved to the US an 'African American'?

[Darth Mandarb]

Remixor - I wasn't trying to offend anybody.

In my opinion: Racism = Ignorance

You have white folk calling themselves Skin Heads or KKK or whatever who so blindly hate blacks/jews/anybody not white and they're made out to look like scum of the earth.

But you get a group of black people who so blindly hate white people (black panthers, etc) and it's okay 'cause black people used to be slaves in this country.

This is sickening.  These blinded, biggoted, racist groups are ALL ignorant pieces of shit!  Regardless of the color of their skin.  And I don't care if I get labeled a racist for insulting non-white people.

A black comedian can get on stage (Bernie Mac, Chris Rock, etc) or an Asian comedian (Margaret Cho) or an Hispanic (George Lopez) and all of them are just full of racist humor against white folk.  Yet it's unacceptable for a white commedian to make racist jokes while on stage about ANY other race.

This is so hipocritical it makes me sick.

I once went for an interview with a big company (who shall remain nameless) I didn't get the job, they hired a black guy instead.  The guy wasn't quite as qualified as I was, but was very qualified for the job.  It didn't bother me until I requested (from the HR manager) the reason why I wasn't hired.  He said his boss didn't want the black guy shouting about racial discrimination and that's why he was hired over me even though I was more qualified.

So who was discriminated against there?

There's a double standard in America (perhaps the world) that simply must go away.

Stop whining about the past and move on to the future.

Nobody is entitled to anything more because of skin color.

[remixor]

DM: Yes, I'm not disagreeing with you in principle, but the "stand up comedy double standard" is utterly outweighed by the ACTUAL double standard that STILL keeps African Americans at the lowest point of the social ladder.  Your interview example is unfortunate, but that's hardly the norm.   Black people are still much more prejudiced again than any other American group; no other American ethnic group except possibly Native Americans (whose population is so small these days that it's hard to get meaningful numbers on it) is still as silently discriminated against.

Your point about comedians is also inaccurate.  White comedian Sarah Silverman is one of the most popular stand-up comedians today, and her humor is very often racial (ie, making fun of NON-whites), and in Hollywood I'd say non-white stereotypes are MUCH more common than the other way around.

You speak about a double-standard but I think you're only perceiving ONE double standard because it's the one that has directly harmed you.  Believe me, there are other double-standards that are much more long-standing and much more harmful to society.

[Darth Mandarb]

Remixor - I want to clarify that I see your point completely.  After I read my last few posts I realize it sounds very one sided and like I don't consider all sides.  I was just wanting to point out how I see a few things.  So, if I offended anybody I apologize, it wasn't my intention.

I dislike racism in all forms.

I haven't heard of Sara Silverman, but I think it's good that she can make non-white jokes.  That's how it should be.  I mean, it is comedy.  Comedy is supposed to be funny after all!

I think the thing that bugs me most of all about racism is that I can't think of a way to fix the problem.  Because how can you cure ignorance?

[TheYak]

With knowledge.  Unfortunately that doesn't always work.

Remixor, you said something along the lines of: If we want to remove all race-related labels such as African American, how is that any different than them wanting the Master/Slave labels removed?  In a round-about way, this proves the point I was trying to make by posting the article's link in the first place.  The difference . . . The Master/Slave designations are convenient labels for hardware and describe their function.  That is reason #1 why the M/S has nothing to do with race.  Reason #2 As mentioned earlier in this thread, there is still slavery in the world.  There are even countries where there are white slaves to an arab populace (White women bartered for as slaves and/or concubines seems to be the most prevalent that I've read of).  

I wish whole-heartedly that we could remove the titles that classify us by our race.  People want to know, "Well, if a black man is arrested and the PC term African-American isn't even allowed, what do you call them?"   One possible solution, "MAle, approx 23 years of age, driving a blah, blah, blah."  Wait a minute.  That's age discrimination!  Alright, "Male, driving a ____."  What? Sexism!  Okay, "Somebody driving a ____."  What? Driving a BMW, holy shit! That's discriminating against the wealthy!  

So, as in a situation where you're given a suspect discription, describing how to get to a house, etc. we use color.  It's convenient and one of the easiest ways to narrow down possible persons/locations/vehicles.  I wish we were at a period where these colors would make no difference to the person using them.  After all, do you really think less of a person driving a blue car than a silver one?  Unfortunately, it's not possible.  Too many preconceptions, too much ignorance passed down through generations, too many stereotypes passed on by friends/family/media.  What's the solution?  I, for one, say that it doesn't lie in hunting down every non-relevant item that offends a specific group of people.  Let's try to educate our society and erase racism as a factor of determining a person's worth.  However, please, I beg in the name of sanity . . . let's not perpetrate a witch-hunt, I had hoped we'd evolved past that by now.

[Pumaman]

I mean, it sounds like people here are just trying to erase racial terms like "African American" and then criticizing the "master/slave" argument for doing the same thing.  I'm doing arguing master/slave because it looks like the thread has shifted, but why does ANYONE think that not calling people "African American" would help anything?  I sure can't imagine what good it would do.

Because calling somebody "African American" rather than just "American" is emphasising that you think they are different, and should therefore be treated differently. Why? Surely if they're American, then they're American.

The master/slave thing is a completely different argument.

It's not as if any white people are EVER going to move to Africa and have babies, I can guarantee you that.

What?!?!? There are loads of white people who go out to work in Africa, and move there accordingly. Let's not also forget all the white farmers in countries like Zimbabwe who are now being persecuted (but that's a whole different story since their gains were fairly ill-gotten).

I think the thing that bugs me most of all about racism is that I can't think of a way to fix the problem. Because how can you cure ignorance?

It's a virtually impossible task, which can only happen gradually. So long as parents teach their children to hate, there's not much hope for the world.

[DGMacphee]

Yet it's unacceptable for a white commedian to make racist jokes while on stage about ANY other race.

I disagree -- most well-known white comedians make jokes about black people and it's perfectly acceptable.

Lenny Bruce did a whole sketch on 'A Typical White Person's View on How To Relax Coloured Friends at Parties'. (Sample line: 'I want to invite you over to my house but I got a problem. You see, I got a sister. And I hear that you guys... Well, I'll put it a different way: You wouldn't want a jew doin' it to your sister. I don't want no coon doing it to my sister. No offence, you know what I mean.') -- People, both white and black, laughed their asses on this routine.

Robin Williams does heaps of jokes on black people. ('Golf is one of the few sports where a white man can dress like a black pimp and not look bad.') -- This line got big laughs.

Bill Hicks even said the officers that beat up Rodney King had "huge balls" for what they said on trial. (i.e. "It's all on how you look at it") -- Big laughs too!

But such white humour on blacks isn't racist as such -- it merely points out perception issues, just the same as Black humour on white, Hispanic humour on whites, gender humour on the opposite sex, gay humour on straight guys, straight humour on gay guys, etc , etc, etc

And as far as I can see, there is no racism in stand-up -- just a bunch of people pointing out the craziness of the world.

And I don't think the identification of such craziness is ignorance.

And this comes from my experience in doing stand-up, meeting other comics, and listening to comics too.



As for solving the problem of racism, there is one solution:


"All we need is a voluntary, free-spirited, open-ended program of procreative racial deconstruction. Everybody just gotta keep fuckin' everybody 'til they're all the same color."

Amen!!!

[TheYak]

I think I, more or less, agree with what DG says.  Comics are hardly an issue of debate when discussing racism.  They're there to help us laugh; mainly at ourselves.  They use racial humor (which may or may not be ethical) to help us see how idiotic we can be.  There is a subtle difference in the other-than-white comedian versus the white-comedian.  A black comedian can speak about white stereotypes and mock white people openly (using applicable terms).  When a white comedian uses racial humor (at least the majority of them) it's usually self-deprecating and is actually mocking white people for their ignorance.  

I don't want to get into that particular debate again and will just ending by saying that Bullworth (Was that the name of that movie?) had the right idea. In eons to come, we'll all embrace each other as members of the gray race.  

[DGMacphee]

When a white comedian uses racial humor (at least the majority of them) it's usually self-deprecating and is actually mocking white people for their ignorance.

Not always.

Robin Williams speaks on sex advice: "If you want advice on sex, you don't want a tiny little jewish lady (Dr Ruth). You want a large black lady named Dr Roof! You say, 'Dr Roof, I have a small penis, does that make a difference?'. She'll go 'Damn straight, baby! Honey, you can't make butter with a toothpick!"



As for another film hero on the topic of racism:


"There is no racial bigotry here. I do not look down on niggers, kikes, wops or greasers. Here, you are all equally worthless."


EDIT: Once again, I'm adding Maddox to a debate, but his latest article is on racism (and it's a damn good one too):

http://maddox.xmission.com/c.cgi?u=walmart

[Darth Mandarb]

DGM - You make some (as usual) good points.  But as Yak said:

Comics are hardly an issue of debate when discussing racism

And I agree with that also.

And as far as I can see, there is no racism in stand-up -- just a bunch of people pointing out the craziness of the world.

I wish this were 100% true.  I think it should be like this but I think a lot of commedians use the stage as a political soap-box.  While they might disguise their routine as just commedy there's a little more going on behind the scenes.  (just my opinion)

So, as in a situation where you're given a suspect discription, describing how to get to a house, etc. we use color. It's convenient and one of the easiest ways to narrow down possible persons/locations/vehicles

I have this friend Steve (black).  We always talk about racism/biggotry/society/etc and such and I refer to him as "black".  Then one day his cousin Anthony is around and when I referred to Steve being "black" Anthony got ticked off.  Now this is just re-damn-diculous.  What the hell else am I supposed to call him?  "The Brotha"?  (Steve hates the term African America too)

I think everybody just needs to loosen their sphincters and relax on the whole thing.

Like I said earlier (about the alien invasion) we just need something big to happen that would really open everybody's eyes to the fact that we're all basically the same.

Never thought I'd actually hope for an alien invasion

]).]v[.

[Haddas]

Hey! What about Eddie Murphy? He be makin' fun o' white people n' shit, n' everyone always be laughin' at 'em. Even white people... Like Michael Jacksson
Anyone watched "Eddie Murpy: Delerious"?

[DGMacphee]

DGM - You make some (as usual) good points.  But as Yak said:

Comics are hardly an issue of debate when discussing racism

And I agree with that also.

But you were the one who brought it up as an example on discussing racism.

How can you agree with Yak, when you were the one who used comics as an issue of debate on racism?

And as far as I can see, there is no racism in stand-up -- just a bunch of people pointing out the craziness of the world.

I wish this were 100% true.  I think it should be like this but I think a lot of commedians use the stage as a political soap-box.  While they might disguise their routine as just commedy there's a little more going on behind the scenes.  (just my opinion)

Politicians get on soapboxes -- That's because they are directly involved in the political process.

Stand-up comedians are not directly involved -- so, what political soapbox have they got when they have no direct participation in the political arena?

People don't pay $20+ just to listen to some guy blather on about politics and race issues -- They actually expect to be entertained and for the guy to be funny.

From my experience in stand-up comedy, a comic is WAY more interested in finding funny material than trying to create a political agenda.

And the main reason so many comics talk about political matters is because there's so many dipshits running the world and so many stupid things happening in areas of politics.

Even Bill Hicks, one of the most political of comics, was equally critical of both Democrats and Republicans, mainly because both Bush Sr and Clinton made a lot of fuck-ups that were ripe for the picking (Bush Sr on the Gulf War, Clinton on Waco, etc).

Robin Williams was very critical of George W. Bush's presidency and yet found time to entertain the troops stationed in Iraq.

And what political agenda does Jerry Seinfeld have?

You see, people blame insignificant things (be it stand-up comics, language, or double standards) for racist attitudes -- you clearly did so when you said:

A black comedian can get on stage (Bernie Mac, Chris Rock, etc) or an Asian comedian (Margaret Cho) or an Hispanic (George Lopez) and all of them are just full of racist humor against white folk. Yet it's unacceptable for a white commedian to make racist jokes while on stage about ANY other race.

And an alien invasion will not unite whites and blacks in social harmony -- As soon as the alien invasion is over, blacks are still going to be treated the same way before such an invasion.

Look at Sept 11 2001: Racism against black people still exists even two years after the WTC fell.

Thus, an alien invasion will do nothing to help the social standing of black people (Unless the spaceships blow away all the white people! )

Paul D'Amato, a US anti-racism campaigner, writes: "In the U.S., most glaringly, Blacks are treated to worse jobs, housing and education and higher rates of unemployment and police brutality than most whites. Latinos face similar, though somewhat less severe treatment--but often face language discrimination. Women receive lower wages than men and bear most of the burden of work in the home."

(And the situation will still be the same after this hypothetical alien invasion.)

Now, you say we should forget the past and move to the future -- I disagree, because I think people need to examine the past a little more to understand the present situation.

I continue with D'Amato : He states that slavery in the US was born not out of racism but ecomonical conditions i.e. getting cheap slave labour.

The off-shoot of this was that the white working class began to resent the black working class because employers would prefer the cheap labour of the black working class, leaving a lot of white workers unemployed.

Thus, they didn't resent the employers, just the black working class.

Flash-forward to today, where all people are given equal pay for their jobs, right?

Wrong.

I posted this before, and I hope you read it: http://maddox.xmission.com/c.cgi?u=walmart

And, as you can see, angry WASP bigots are still complaining that "outsiders" are stealing American jobs.

Once again, from D'Amato: "The same logic works under capitalism today. If native-born workers can be made to believe that immigrant workers threaten their jobs, if white workers can be made to hate or resent Blacks, if all Americans can be made to think that "foreigners" or "Muslims" are the enemy, and so on, it makes it more difficult for workers and the oppressed to unite." (meaning all working class, black, white, yellow, green, blue, whatever)

"In other words, racist, sexist or xenophobic ideas do not benefit workers and the poor, whatever their race, sex or ethnicity. But they do benefit the exploiters--by making sections of the exploited believe they have common interests with their exploiters based upon having the same language or skin color."

In other words, all these exploiters turn white working class against black working class by making them believe that the result of their poor economical situation was the fault of the black working class, not the exploiters themselves -- And the white working class trusts the exploiters more cause they're white too.

Forget ignorance; the real problem is, and always has been, exploitation.

The rich will continue to exploit the poor, and turn white people against black people.

I am reminded of something you said previously:

Nobody is entitled to anything more because of skin color.

This is true.

However, it is also true that everybody is entitled to the same as everyone else despite the colour of their skin.

And, if you read that Maddox article I posted, you'll see a shitload of non-US native workers not recieving such equality.

Once again, D'Amato: "Treating one part of society worse helps bring down the conditions of all workers. The fact that, for example, women perform necessary labor in the home--raising children, cooking, cleaning--means that capitalists can pay lower wages."

"The antagonism of whites toward Blacks has been the secret by which employers in the South have kept workers from organizing successfully. The fight against racism, therefore, cannot be separated from the class struggle as a whole."

Therefore, to say racism equals ignorance treats racial problems in a very loose-weight fashion, as the real problems stem from capitalistic exploitation.

Now before anyone accuses me of being a "dirty commie" (which I'm not -- I hate the left as much as I hate the right), consider this: I am arguing that all people should be equally  paid and, as I said previously, the majority of working class blacks, hispanics, migrant workers, and women are not paid the same as working class white men.

As D'Amato said previosuly this reduces the standing of these different groups as a whole.

Trying to change double standards won't do a damn thing.

Changing the ecomnomic scale will.

[Darth Mandarb]

I didn't bring up comedy as the main point of arguing racism, I only commented on it to point out my thoughts.

Bill Mahr and Dennis Miller (both commedians) are VERY political.  I'm not saying commedians are politicians, but they do deal with political issues.

You see, people blame insignificant things (be it stand-up comics, language, or double standards) for racist attitudes -- you clearly did so when you said:

A stand up comic can influence attitudes and opinions.  I don't consider that insignificant.

And an alien invasion will not unite whites and blacks in social harmony -- As soon as the alien invasion is over, blacks are still going to be treated the same way before such an invasion.

We agree!!  Like I said earlier, "Then, once the aliens have been defeated and human-kind rejoice in their victory, it'll go back to the way it was in just over a month"

Anyway ... I'm going to stop posting in here because I can see it degenerating into one of those threads that will go on and on and on and never accomplish anything.

I hope nobody got a (more) negative attitude of me.  That wasn't my intention at all.

"There's only two things in this world I can't stand.  Those who are intolerant of other people and their cultures ... and the Dutch."

[TheYak]

Heh.  I wasn't aware that this was the debate thread.. perhaps the title will have to be changed.  

I just thought a certain issue was ridiculous and wanted to hear other opinions.  We got the full range before lapsing into a discussion on racism.  Personally (and I don't know everyone here all that well) I believe that the AGS community, as a whole, doesn't have too much problem with this particular social ill.  That is one of the many reasons I started frequenting the forums.  The community, in general, also seems fairly considerate when dealing with issues of gender, age, sexual preferences and country of origin.  Hooray for us, I say.  There have been some good points here but I think the thread's damned to hell and should probably be shut-off sometime soon.