3D characters in AGS?

[Ali]

Plus, hi-poly models tend to be made up of squares instead of (like many low-poly models) triangles.

[TerranRich]

Am I the only one who believes in the old-fashioned belief that AGS should stay true to 2D? I mean, it was intended for 2D Sierra- and LEC- style adventure game in the beginning. Then again, it's all up to CJ. But if it were up to me (which of course it isn't) I would keep it 2D. There are other 3D engines out there, a few of them freeware.

[Migs]

Am I the only one who believes in the old-fashioned belief that AGS should stay true to 2D? I mean, it was intended for 2D Sierra- and LEC- style adventure game in the beginning. Then again, it's all up to CJ. But if it were up to me (which of course it isn't) I would keep it 2D. There are other 3D engines out there, a few of them freeware.

No, you're not.  I, too, thought one of the highlights of AGS was to recapture the style and spirit of the old-school adventure games.  Frankly, I'm surprised so many people think AGS should go 3d.  To me, a 3d AGS doesn't make sense.  Use another engine if you want to make a 3d game.

[Vel]

Couldn't have said it better myself, Migs.

[Joseph DiPerla]

Going back to the point of the makehuman. I was just stating that becouse thats how I use my sprites in a game. I take snapshots of the frames. But I didn't intend to use that for AGS. I only posted it cause someone said or asked how to make characters.

Although, 3ds, poser, and MD2/3 files wouldn't be so bad to use in a game. I use MD2's all the time.

Going to the point of wanting AGS to be 2d.... I am also sure that some people didn't want it to be converted to linux either, but that happened. Listen, I dont want to seem sarcastic here, but the truth of it all is: All the 2D features that AGS has, well it will always have them. And you know even if 3D was introduced, all those great games that AGS created, will they will still keep on coming. And you wont be confused if 3d is added becouse you will still know how to program all the 2d stuff.

I really dont see how adding 3D will make things worse. Something to think about is that a lot of people didn't want the plugin system or 32 bit graphics either. But now we have it and it doesn't make a difference for those people.

If you wonder about what priority Chris should should worry about when it comes to upgrading the engine and fixing bugs, I think Chris will fix the 2D stuff and 2D features first, and then the 3D stuff will be next on the priority list of bug fixes and new 3d features to add.

Maybe we should atleast even give it a beta try and if noone is happy, Chris can then remove the feature.

JD

[Migs]

People actually didn't want 32 bit graphics, a plugin system, or a Linux port?Ã,  Adding 3d character support (assuming that's ALL the "3d support" that'd be implemented) would take an enormous amount of work for CJ, too much to simply remove if beta testing decided it "just wasn't right."Ã,  I would rather see AGS continue to be the best darn 2d adventure-making program than see it venture into the still-relatively-new 3d world.

If you really want 3d character support so you can make your own Grim Fandango-like game, make a plugin for it.Ã,  (Good luck.)

[RLacey]

I think 3D support is the kind of thing that should be right at the bottom of the 'to do' list. One day it might be nice, but extra 2D features would benefit a far greater number of people in the short term.

[Pau]

People actually didn't want 32 bit graphics, a plugin system, or a Linux port?Ã, 

32 bit graphics didn't recapture the style and spirit of the old-school adventure games (which was your argument against 3D).

I think the only problem here is to determine if the great effort of introducing 3D capabilities will repercute in better games. As I also said before, I prefer more 2D features to be introduced first, but I think 3D characters could be a great feature if it's used correctly.

And, in last term the screen is a 2D surface and you always see the game on it so real-time 3D chars, pre-rendered ones or even scaled sprites are the same, emulations of the real behaviour of the perspective over 3D objects.

[Joseph DiPerla]

Look, I agree, the priority should be 2D. But if 3D was implemented properly it wouldn't be a bad thing.

Not only that, but if you make 3d support, more people would join the community and make some outstanding games. Think about it, alot of people like wintermute cause they heard there was 3d character support, and that was their biggest attraction. Of course now it doesn't support it anymore.

All I am saying is, lets not knock 3D away. AGS is still the greatest 2D engine out there. But 3D wouldn't be so bad.

Also, as far as implementing 3D and taking it away, I think CJ said he made a private build with 3d support for testing purposes earlier in this thread. So yes it would be hard and a bit time consuming, but maybe not as bad as we think.

Yeah, believe it or not (Going back to the 32bit and plugin and linux thing) there were some that didn't want it. And then it turned out to be a great thing. Maybe this would be a blessing in disguise.

As far as using other engines to make pnc adventure games (Someone stated this earlier), it wouldn't be a good idea becouse almost all engines are 3d shooters and plus, I would never abandon AGS as my number one adventure maker. Its just so great. So if I ever create anything in 3D, it would have to be released with AGS or not at all. I love AGS that much. (Plus I am slow and wouldn't be capable of learning to use another engine :p )

[TerranRich]

Implementing 32 bit graphic support is a whole lot different than introducing 3D into AGS. You would essentially be changing the entire point of AGS. Instead of being a classic adventure game creator, you would probably be able to eventually make another Gabriel Knight 3. Personally, the game that I am working on uses pre-rendered 3D graphics. Why not just go with a regular 3D engine, you ask? Because it's a challenge. If I wanted to go the easy route and continue with a 3D game, I'd give AGS a pass and go with something else. But I stay with AGS because of the fact that it's 2D, and I love the challenge of pushing the 2D engine to its limits of capabilities.

To me, introducing 3D would ruin the uniqueness and the overall appeal of the engine for me. It just wouldn't be the same.

[shbaz]

Implementing 32 bit graphic support is a whole lot different than introducing 3D into AGS. You would essentially be changing the entire point of AGS. Instead of being a classic adventure game creator, you would probably be able to eventually make another Gabriel Knight 3. Personally, the game that I am working on uses pre-rendered 3D graphics. Why not just go with a regular 3D engine, you ask? Because it's a challenge. If I wanted to go the easy route and continue with a 3D game, I'd give AGS a pass and go with something else. But I stay with AGS because of the fact that it's 2D, and I love the challenge of pushing the 2D engine to its limits of capabilities.

Terran, this may sound harsh, but you are going the easy route, making a real-time game would be going the hard route. You can't use Poser to make any kind of unique (realtime) game characters.

I just don't understand why progress is so often seen as a bad thing. I can't even bother to argue it, because I think your minds are already made up.

[Joseph DiPerla]

AGS is already Unique and nothing can take that away. In fact every engine is unique in its own way.

By adding 3D support to it, you are making AGS even more Unique by having it be the only engine for people to download to create 2d point and click adventures with 3d characters and objects.

Again, I would like to stress that 2d games will always be made. I dont see it as something that would interfere with 2d. AGS already is good enough to make any game SCUMM/AGI/SCI/AGAST/SLUDGE/SAGE/Wintermute/Visionaire can make and has made. So in realty if you think about it, you dont really need to add many more 2d features, just bug fixes.

adding 3d would open up a whole new world of games and developers using AGS. We might actually see commercial games made with AGS. Who knows, maybe Sierra and Lucasarts will abandon their engines and use AGS (This is a longshot, but a possibility none the less).

I think we are concentrating on the negatives rather than the positivies here.

JD

[MrColossal]

As far as using other engines to make pnc adventure games (Someone stated this earlier), it wouldn't be a good idea becouse almost all engines are 3d shooters

again, I'm am not against AGS having 3d at some point in the future [not that it matters cause it's up to CJ and I really don't care] but again... NO! Will you stop believing this?

There are tons of 3d engines out there and they are not ment for 3d shooters. So stop.

Also. Please explain to me why someone would be willing to wait for CJ to implement all this stuff into AGS when there are engines out there that do it already? Because you like AGS? That's not good enough. What if you had to wait 8 years for AGS to even handle 3d characters in an acceptable way? And then you realize that maybe normal mapping is something you'd like to try [because if you want to sell a 3d adventure game you're going to have to offer the latest tech, right?] so now you have to wait for CJ to add normal mapping functionality. And then you want to have a dynamic pony tail and then you want and then and then...

I asked this before and no one answered... Just saying you like AGS isn't a good reason to want to wait for years while AGS would stay 300 steps behind even GRIME [the engine they made Grim Fandango with]

I'm not against AGS adding 3d support at some point, I'm against people waiting. If you're that gung ho about making a 3d adventure game, waiting for Chris to please you is the silliest idea I've ever heard.

Also, Joseph, adding 3d support doesn't make game creation easier or anything, AGS has had 1 commercial adventure game, why would adding 3d support mean we'd see more AGS commercial games?

[shbaz]

Also. Please explain to me why someone would be willing to wait for CJ to implement all this stuff into AGS when there are engines out there that do it already? Because you like AGS? That's not good enough.

Because the game engines I've found ask for a lot of scripting for simple things like message boxes. The answer is that it would be ease-of-use. The point and click interface would already be programmed, the message boxes would be a simple matter, no scripting a pathfinder, and more.

Timewise, it's not really practical without people to help or source code to rip from somewhere else.. but 8 years? Come on. That's overkill, single people have programmed good 3d engines from nothing in less than two.

A good way around the open-source hinderances would be to use a plugin and make it opensource. I don't know how this stuff works though.

For anyone who wants a free engine that isn't made specifically for any genre of game, just search and filter out words like "quake." Seriously, there are a lot. Blender, Crystal Space, Panda3d (developed by Disney), and others. Just search.

[RLacey]

adding 3d would open up a whole new world of games and developers using AGS. We might actually see commercial games made with AGS. Who knows, maybe Sierra and Lucasarts will abandon their engines and use AGS (This is a longshot, but a possibility none the less).

Professional companies with staff positions dedicated to engine development would never use a free tool - using their own allows them an even greater degree of control, customisation and optimisation.

As for the other comment quoted, I really don't see what the big thing is about developing commercial games in AGS. Has it occured to people that perhaps people merely choose not to release their game commericially. I've seen several games that could easily have been sold with only a little more work. Hell, if it makes people happy, then I'll make a commerical AGS game. But I really don't see why you'd want that, if I could release a game of the same quality for free...

[Joseph DiPerla]

Going to Mr Col (I hope this doesn't sound sarcastic or as if I am angry. I am just trying to defend my points):

Well, I would wait 8 years for AGS to support 3D for the simple fact that I dont wish to make a 3D game right now, and yes becouse I like AGS. And as someone else said, I would wait cause all the adventure features are in AGS and its easy to use. If I really wanted to use complicated scripting I would just use SCI Studio then. Plus I can be satisfied just taking snapshots of my models like I have been saying I have been doing.

Your also right, there are a ton of 3d engines for us to make games, not just shooters. And someone mentioned Blender. But here is the deal. I dont feel like learning a new scripting language when I am comfortable not just with c/c++ but with AGS in general. And granted that there is a 3d adventure game engine (http://3das.noeska.com/), only thing is that the whole world has to be in 3d. I just want characters and some objects to be in 3D.

Oh and I never said that adding 3D support would make making games easier. I said it would attract more people to develop in AGS becouse of the feature, not the ease of use. If I said it wouldmake it easier, I apologize, cause I didn't mean that.

And also regarding the 8 years to implement... Please scroll through this thread to see Chris's post and you will notice that he tried out 3D. Yes it wasn't practical and it wasn't something he wanted to implement at the time. But I dont think it would take 8 years for him to implement.

And of course we all agree that it is really upto Chris on whether he decides to add 3d to AGS. And I will remain one of the happiest AGSer's whether he adds 3d or not.

Laceyware:

Why I would rather play commercial games from AGS is becouse the person making the game or the team making the game will put an enormous amount of effort and features into their games becouse they are getting paid. Even though AGS has created some of my most favorite games, some still dont compete with some commercial games like CMI, Grim Fandango, Runaway just to name a few. I think the commercial aspect motivates people to make some good games cause there is a profit involved.

Also, I have been in this community since the beginning. I still have the first version of this engine when it was the ACeditor or something like that. For Nostalgic reasons I would love to see AGS be so popular that it makes commercial games. Thats just a personal desire I have.

JD

[Pau]

There are tons of 3d engines out there and they are not ment for 3d shooters. So stop.

I completelly agree. And even if an engine is focused in 3D shooters could be used for creating adventures. Just don't use the shooter features.

I think the problem is that a great number of engines require C/C++ and you need to go throu compiling, linking, dependencies, segmentation faults...

So for making a 3D adventure the most appropiate engines will be the ones that could be completelly accessed with a scripting language because programming complex puzzles could be done easilly.

For example the ones shbazjinkens said are scriptable using Python (I don't know if a full game could be done with Crystal Space using only scripting). If you prefer lua (the language used to program the scripts in GF) you can try Apocalyx engine (http://apocalyx.sourceforge.net/) .

[shbaz]

Actually, I think Crystal Space is the only one that doesn't use Python that I listed.. I thought it used C++. I may be wrong, I don't use it, I'm only developing models for a demo game they're making.

Python is supposed to be one of the easiest computer languages there is, even easier than Java. That's why a lot of engines use it for scripting.

[Pet Terry]

I think support for 3d characters would be cool, though I can't make 3d graphics Make AGS faster instead so that hi-res and hi-colour games run faster on my computer

[Atlas]

The biggest stumbling block I found was trying to get a 3D program to export a file format that AGS could read in easily. Not managing to find one was what put pay to my experiment. Even 3dsmax's "ASCII export format" was hideously complicated and seemed to be missing bits.

Have you tried the forums at gamedev.net?Ã,  People there are bound to know the best 3D format for your needs.