Are RPGs the way to go?

[Goldmund]

I've been replaying Planescape: Torment some time ago and I marveled at the fact how much this favourite game of mine is actually a damn good adventure game.

See, this time I allocated all the points to "intelligence" and "wisdom" (to those wondering, YES, surprisingly the game is much more easier when you do this) so I could avoid most of the combats with smart talk. Anyway, I don't know how many of you know Torment, but there are long parts of it that consist of solving puzzles using inventory and - the best ones - solved with talking to different people.
Inventory-related puzzles must have been really easy to script, as all of them are solved using the dialogue engine (and are still involving!)

The best thing about Torment is that it paradoxically combines the player's freedom characteristic of RPGs with memorable characters and a great and thought-provoking story. The case is similar with two Fallout RPGs.

RPGs feel much less constrained in terms of player's choices because GUI is the king there. You choose to attack a person important to the story and the protagonist doesn't go all "I cannot!", "He's much stronger!", they just do it (in such cases the designers save their story by making the important person strong enough to kick the protagonist's ass blindfolded.) In Fallout I can go back to my village and wipe the entire population - I will fail my quest, but hey, I have free will, right? The houses don't appear on a map when I learn about them, but when I go north, they just are there.

Whereas RPGs have simpler and less varied graphics, the designer's effort goes into scripting much more characters and more ways of getting out of a predicament. You have hundreds of characters instead of - what - 20, 30? Also, they're more life-like, as you have to sustain the life of the main character, dress him/her, feed him/her, sleep (when you feel like it, not when you solved everything the designer wanted you to during this "day") AND solve puzzles in a world of characters with own agenda.

Of course, it's not true of all RPGs, but in my opinion Torment, Fallout, Ultima, Nomad Soul (which was an action game as well) and Gothic (the latter most combat-heavy, but still a great experience) are just adventure games with more freedom to the player (nice plots, puzzles, important dialogues - forget the Deus Ex's one-liners).

All this (and the fact that RPGs still do sell) made me wonder whether RPGs aren't the future of adventure gaming...

[Bernie]

Ah, Fallout 1 & 2, Gothic 1 & 2 and Torment - I love those games very much. For some reason, I don't really like other PC RPGs, but those games feel different. Fallout had this really nice turn-based battle system, and Gothic offered a great dialogue system without too many characters saying the same thing, as seen in some RPGs.
Planescape Torment... I liked it because of its story, atmosphere and deep dialogues. The battle system wasn't my kind of thing, but it didn't turn me off either.

All those games borrow some adventure game elements, but I'd enjoy some of them much more if they were just a bit more like adventure games, more story-driven and would feature characters with at least some personality (Torment was a step into the right direction).

I think that RPG/Adventure game hybrids as opposed to your standard PC RPG (Baldur's Gate) would be a genre to look into - I'd definately buy games like that. Hmm... might as well make a game like that some day.

[Igor]

Hm, don't know... I don't really like RPGs. For me, they are just too opened and require too much time to get into them (while you can just load some adventure for half an hour to relax and kill some time).
What i like about adventures are exactly theirs (so called) "shortcomings"- linearity, limited interactivity... Kind of intearctive movies/cartoons, books.
If i'd have to choose the "future of adventure gaming", i'd go more along Silent Hill series (playing this game on "beginner" action level, actually is pure adventure) or ICO, that i think have more in common with point&clicks than RPGs.

[Ali]

I've just started playing my first ever RPG: Ultima Underworld (1992). I'm quite enjoying it, but it's the strong story and puzzle based elements that I like. The openness is quite novel for me but I'm not sure I'd want every game I play to be like that. I'm not sure how a Dungeons & Dragons-like RPG could really build to a dramatic ending, with every element of the plot being so flexible.

But I haven't played any modern RPGs. Are they less D&D?

[Goldmund]

I'm not sure how a Dungeons & Dragons-like RPG could really build to a dramatic ending, with every element of the plot being so flexible.

Aha, but this is a great question: how they manage that? Fallout, for example, made you choose sides as the story unveiled and faced you with moral dilemmas. You could even marry a girl and then sell it to slavers if you liked. You could absolutely choose to be a bad, good or indifferent guy. At the end it presented you with a slideshow showing the future outcome of your decisions in the game's world, and what happened with more important NPCs.
I need to think more how they pull off with ending being dramatic without ruining the player's illussion of free will - but rest assured that the Torment's ending beats in emotional aspect every other game I've played. I know people who have cried at that point.

[Darth Mandarb]

Somebody posted an article a little while ago about the future of adventure games and what they need to do to 'evolve'.

It really got me thinking ...

I completely reworked the dynamics of a game I'm working on because of it.Ã,  I have decided to make the game completely non-linear.Ã,  You can go anywhere you want (almost) at any time (almost).Ã,  There are, obviously, some limitations (you can't go somewhere at the beginning of the game that you don't yet know about IE, if you are playing the game a second time you can't type in the coordinates to the 'secret' place even if you know them from playing before (because they change each time you play!!))

I am also scripting in much more in-depth character interactions.Ã,  How you treat NPCs throughout the game will effect a) the ending of the game and b) how they'll help/hurt you throughout the game.Ã,  Say, for instance, you are rude to 'John Doe' character towards the beginning of the game, then when you meet him again later on you continue being rude, at some point in the game if you need his help he'll tell you to bugger off.Ã,  But if you had been nicer to him earlier in the game, he would have helped you out!Ã, 

And always being nice isn't the answer either because some characters will take offense if you 'coddle' them ... so it's going to be quite interesting to see how this plays out.

What does this have to do with this topic?

Well, I feel that that's basically what RPGs have done to remain so strong in 'market' place.Ã,  People are still playing RPGs because they have 'evolved' where (most) adventure games have not.Ã,  And all of us here at AGS (or rather a vast majority) prove that point daily.Ã,  We still use 320x200 graphics!!Ã,  While I love the retro ... it's not moving forward and is why, I think, the genre has dropped off the scene.

Don't get me wrong ... if Adventures never get back to prominance, and the AGS community stays on as it has I'd be more than happy.Ã,  I rather like being 'underground' and 'retro' as it were.Ã,  But at the same time, I'd really like to see an Adventure game rock the world again!

I think the next step that would be cool, would be to make a true, 3D, adventure game.Ã,  I've fiddled about with the Half-Life level editor (a few years ago) and with the programming aspect you could really make a kick ass FPAG (First Person Adventure Game) ... or with Max Payne 2's level editor and scripting engine you could make a kick ass TPAG (Third person adventure game) which I think is the better option.

It's not focused on runnin'n'gunnin' ... you must solve puzzles, find clues, hide, stealth, travel, etc.Ã,  And then occasionally you might have to use a gun (or a bat, bow & arrow, staff, club, etc.)Ã,  Basically it's just an adventure game, but with a lush, 3D environment.

I know that's probably not too popular a thing to say ... but if done right, it could be REALLY cool.

Just some of my (scattered) thoughts ...

[edmundito]

Well, adventure games are the bastard son of the popular 70s rpg Dungeons and Dragons, because the original games (colossal cave) were inspired by it, even though there were no hit points and whatnot.

I think that adventures can still learn more from their nerdier father, but personally I think that it would be more automatic. RPGs keep like a zillion stats on everything, and the more complex ones even show you the calculations on how you get experience and stuff like that.. pretty nerdy. Adventure games do not focus on these statistics, so these statistics could be added up invisibly from the player, like in a simulation...

Say you have this adventure where you can like..um... flirt with women/men. The more you flirt with them, the more they will like you... but unlike the sims you shouldn't even know how much.. you just know from the way they want you badly. Now, how does this affect the story? well, it's kind of like the character's side story about his personal life, which doesn't have to do much with the main adventure, but if you're interested you can pursue that...

There is so much I could say! but I'm still learning how to use up some of my ideas inspired from RPGs.... maybe you'll see them in action someday.

[Alun]

Of course, it's not true of all RPGs, but in my opinion Torment, Fallout, Ultima, Nomad Soul (which was an action game as well) and Gothic (the latter most combat-heavy, but still a great experience) are just adventure games with more freedom to the player

Torment and Fallout I'll agree with you on, and Nomad Soul and Gothic I'm not really familiar with, but the Ultima series varied widely.  Some of them had strong plot and puzzle elements; some didn't.  The first few in the series in particular--they had a few puzzles, but not the type of openness and detail you're referring to.  I think it's Ultima IV that really started putting together the sort of story, freedom, and puzzles you're talking about.  Before that, the first three Ultimas were mostly just running around killing monsters, with very little else to do (though to be fair, yes, even they did have a few puzzles).

Of course, Ultima was the first computer RPG series of all, so it has a good excuse for the first installments in the series not representing the high point of development of the genre. 

Anyway, though, while I think there can be overlaps between and hybrids of any two genres, to some degree, I agree that the RPG and adventure game genres are closer than most.  In fact, as one of my many unrealistic projects I stand a good chance of never finishing, at one point I started planning out my own RPG construction set program.  I then started planning out my own graphic adventure construction set program--and realized it would be redundant, because everything it would need to do the RPG construction set program would already be capable of anyway.

As to whether or not graphic adventures need to take lessons from RPGs, though... I dunno.  I think the reason for the decline of the adventure game has less to do with any shortcoming in the genre itself, and more to do with the fact that the computer game companies always promote the fact that their games use the most sophisticated software technology and test the limits of the hardware's capabilities as a major selling point--and computers have advanced enough that adventure games just don't do that anymore.  One could gussy them up with all sorts of unnecessary features to try to make them do it (e.g. it seems to me that the latest Monkey Island game was 3-D just for the sake of being 3-D, and actually doesn't look as good as the previous 2-D installment), but inherently adventure games just don't benefit from technological advances anymore as much as other games do, and so the perception that a game has to be high-tech to be good damages the genre.  (As it happens, I actually wrote kind of a longish essay on this topic in my LiveJournal a few days ago...)

Not that I have anything against RPGs, by any means.  They're pretty much tied with adventure games as my favorite genre.  But I don't think that adventure games need to become more like RPGs--or like any other genre---to thrive.  Oh, I certainly wouldn't mind seeing some more adventure/RPG or adventure/action hybrids; I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that sort of thing, and there are plenty of interesting approaches to doing that.  I just don't like the idea of an attempt to move the genre as a whole in that direction.  IMO, what needs to happen (as unlikely as it may be) is for there to be a change in the general perception of the video game industry, a realization that a game doesn't have to test the limits of technology to be worthwhile; that a game can be fun and entertaining without requiring several CDs and the latest graphics card with bump-mapped 3D acceleration.  But as far as the adventure games themselves, I'd rather the genre as a whole didn't (on the average) stray too far from its roots--though, again, individual games that took things in different directions might make for interesting developments.

[Captain Mostly]

I'd just suggest that RPG's haven't STAYED popular on the market. They've pretty much only recently come back. There was a period where the Eye of the Beholder games represented the streangth of the RPG in the market, then there were YEARS when RPG's just dissappeared from the shelves, as no one was buying them. So perhaps it's just a case of being patient for Adventure Games to come back around?

ALSO RPG's can't be the way forward for adventure games, as RPG's were around before Adventure games (as we know them) came into being. RPG's were around before COMPUTERS as we know them came into being, so turning adventure games into RPG's would be a step back, away from a format that has presumably evolved so that a very specific story can be told in a specific way. Monkey Island 3 wouldn't have worked as an RPG, nor would Day Of The Tenticle. To move FORWARD the Adventure Game would have to think of different and better ways of telling an interactive story. They'd also have to start being more origional with what stories they told. No more "save the princess" bumph...

I'm not saying that turning to the RPG is going to produce BAD games, but I think it's important to remember that it wouldn't be a step FORWARD, and wouldn't it be nicer if people moved forwards, as that IS the only way for something origional to get made?

[GarageGothic]

I certainly think some agree of RPG-elements are necessary to revive the adventure genre. And by that I don't mean combat, stats and monsters, but rather freedom from the rigid scripts that are usually adventure games.

In my opinion, computer RPGs have failed miserably if they're trying to be anything like tabletop RPGs (except perhaps the dungeon crawls of the early seventies). You're trying to identify with this character - yet, you see him from a far away isometric view. Half the characters you meet are clones of eachother, and most of the encounters/missions seems sort of... well, random, I guess.

The QFG games were, to me, the perfect way (at the time) of presenting an RPG on the computer screen. Everything was held together by the story - nothing seemed random or irrelevant to the plot at hand, yet you could decide which subquests to solve or leave be, and how to solve the tasks you were given. But for some reason, this approach - the hybrid between adventure and RPG (and QFG excelled at both) - was forgotten.

The Deus Ex games had some nice RPG elements, although of a rather simplistic kind with little influence on the overall plot. But the real heritage of QFG i find in the GTA games - for some reason, the whole idea of quests and subquests within a freeform environment - all held together by a narrative, seems to capture exactly what I loved about the QFG games. I hope this genre will become more influential, but I don't think it's the way that adventure games should go.

Rather, I think, we should look at live RPGs as they're played today. Without all the rules and stats of tabletop RPGs, with a strong focus on story and interaction, and where the drama is more important than whether the player fails or succeeds in his quest. I envision the games as shorter than we're used to, but with immense replayability. Think Tender Loving Care with the player in the role of a character rather than an observer.

[Rui 'Trovatore' Pires]

I share GG's +view about the best way to present RPGs on the computer - story-driven, yet not linear. It makes QFG, Betrayal at Krondor (I can't believe no one's mentioned it yet!) and Lands of Lore my personal favorites.

Just wanted to share this very little piece of trivia. The whole argument is way over my head by now.

[Goldmund]

Well, I chose a wrong title for this thread, it should read: what RPG features I would like to see in adventure games. I thought of changing it, and making you all dunces, but hey, let's play fair.

And, GG, I don't agree with your views on NPCs being too similar in ways of graphics. They are usually very small so we cannot see their faces anyway, and their personality reveals itself in dialogues. Notice how there's lot of diverse NPCs in Fallout or Torment: if they had to look different, this number would be most probably reduced to cut down costs on artists.

To sum up, what RPG features I would like to see in adventure games:

- The GUI controls cannot be overriden by the designer. No "I don't steal from innocents". Player wants to do it, so the main character does it. It gives a fantastic feeling of being free to experiment with the game world - like finding ways to kill Lord British in Ultima 6.

- NPCs having their agenda, like in Ultima 5. On set times of the day and night they breakfast, go to work, dine, go to a pub, sup, and go to bed.

- Dressing your main character!!! Oh I love it. And each clothing you wear somehow has an impact on the game (in traditional RPGs, it's usually combat skills).

- Shopping. It's so much fun when suddenly you get some money and go to shop to buy this beautiful Avenger machine gun.

Usually, PC RPGs had too simple plots and characters to make full use of these features. Fallout and Torment, however...

[edmundito]

Goldmund, I definitely like your ideas, and those are ones that I've thought of before, too... maybe it's because we have similar names... Edmundo.... Goldmund(o).... 

One coment I'd like to add is that changing the character's clothes is kind of a like a difficult process at the moment, but that would be pretty insteresting if someone had enough time and effort.

Basically, adventure games shouldn't just have this philosophy:  "I am the game designer. You must do what I tell you to the way I want it to be done. You can't do anything else that makes sense to you but does not make sense to me."... Thatś more like a book, not a game. Why not take advantage of the technology and go beyond what was set in stone years ago? Mostly, it's just lazy programming... if you can run your game from start to finish, it doesn't necessarily mean it's done. But who am I to impose such ideas on people? It's a lot of work to do, but for me it's worth it.

The best way to experiment with these ideas is to actually try them out in a real game, instead of talking about them, though.

[Goldmund]

Eh, but everything starts with talking, you pragmatist!!1!!

As for the philosophy you described, Edmundo, some time ago I would quarrel that without this kind of control, the designer would be unable to make a good story... but, as Torment proves, it's more than possible.

[George]

I'd have to agree with what you are all saying, seeing as the commercial adventure game market has at this point in time, come to a standstill, I think slightly modified RPGs are the way to go (and by modified I mean more puzzle then fighting based). On the other hand, they could still make adventure games, but make them more life like or give the player more freedom.

I have always been disappointed by the lack of realism in today's games, take “Thief” for example, I would have liked it a hell of a lot more had the house servants had more intelligence, like doing the dishes or chatting with each other, rather then standing around waiting for Christmas. Even if the game had a real life time engine, like people getting up and having breakfast and what not, so it is more character driven (frankly, running around sneaking and stealing gets a bit monotonous after a while)Ã,  :(Ã, 

Sounds like I'll like this “Planescape” that you speak of, and if one of you AGSers is up for the challenge to make such a game (couldn't care how many mega bytes) it would set a whole new standard to adventure games.

Later.Ã,  Ã, 

[juncmodule]

- NPCs having their agenda, like in Ultima 5. On set times of the day and night they breakfast, go to work, dine, go to a pub, sup, and go to bed.

Since finishing my first game this is ALL I have been trying to do with AGS. I started out with smuggler, which was supposed to be a "sci-fi economic sim", started a similar game set in ancient Rome, and now I'm back at smuggler. I'm using RPG graphics because when I think of a simulated environment like that it seems like the best way to present it.

The CCS plug-in makes this very possible with AGS. Using the plug-in in Keptosh is what made me want to make a "sim-like" game.

Basically, I see the whole "interact in a world that moves without you" as the evolution of games in general. I think that Adventure games were so popular because for the first time you could explore this whole world. Now, GTA (as someone already mentioned) fills this role. However, the goal hasn't really been reached yet. I think there needs to be a full world with ALL characters doing a daily routine. This will be the ultimate game.

The game Brataccas managed this fairly well. This little asteroid was populated with people that "did their thing" and you just solved the game on your own terms. It is more of a fighting game than strategy and the solution and character design is crap, but the games tumultuous history is responsible for that.

I don't think RPG's are the evolution of anything, I just think they have grown and been able to achieve this goal a little easier. I honestly believe that the reason First(and third) Person Shooter games are shooters is because the technology has only recently reached the point where doing a full on adventure game (in a fun way) is possible.

I actually attempted to create a world like this using the half-life engine. The limitations however kept that from happening. It COULD be done. But, it would be easier to do with something like AGS.

later,
-junc

[BorisZ]

Well, I feel that that's basically what RPGs have done to remain so strong in 'market' place.Ã,  People are still playing RPGs because they have 'evolved' where (most) adventure games have not.Ã,  And all of us here at AGS (or rather a vast majority) prove that point daily.Ã,  We still use 320x200 graphics!!Ã,  While I love the retro ... it's not moving forward and is why, I think, the genre has dropped off the scene.

This is true. I noticed that most of the games use 320 x 200 resolution, very few use 640 x 480 and I don't think I have ever seen 800 x 600 AGS game!! While retro is nice sometimes, it would be nice to see something other. Don't tell me that my new game ("Metaphysical graffiti") is going to be first 800 x 600 AGS game ever made?!?

[Nellie]

There is one important consequence of allowing the player to choose to do any action they like with the player character - the game writer is no longer able to define the personality of the player character.

Which is fine if that's what you want - RPGs are built around the idea of players defining their own character's personality.  But before anyone starts thinking along the lines of "limiting player freedom = bad game design" (which nobody has expressed yet, so this is a pre-empting note), remember that this would mean you couldn't write a fully fleshed out personality for your main character, and the character eventually defined by the player would come out in pretty broad strokes, unless you write a large amount of subtle decisions for the player to encounter (as possibly Fallout does, though I haven't played it yet so I don't know).

[Karimi]

I certainly think some agree of RPG-elements are necessary to revive the adventure genre. And by that I don't mean combat, stats and monsters, but rather freedom from the rigid scripts that are usually adventure games.

Odd how GG stands for Gary Gygax ...

Anyway, i liked Fallout , despite its sort of outdated graphics the game can really hold its own. I guess it goes to show you that quality and storytelling is much more important than graphics.

I also believe that , yes, adventure games didn't truely evolve but rather followed a pretty similiar path. None really dared to be daring.

BTW I would have to say my fav adventure game is : Indy and the Fate of Atlantis .

[GarageGothic]

Odd how GG stands for Gary Gygax ...

Shhhh, don't give away my secret identity!!!  8)