Do you think Adventure Games should be more serious?

[miguel]

Hi to all,
I believe that Adventure Games can stand out as an art form on its own.
Movies, literature and music, allowed many people to talk about human condition apart from the 'main scene' industrial business and my question is:
   - do you think adventure games are a good way to show artistic, deep issues, social and sexual differences?
   - do you think we (amateur producers) should only focus on pure entertaining games?

We were all driven here by MI and the rest of those great games,
    -are we here because we want to make more MI games?
    -are we ready to evolve and skip into a different genre?

Sex sells and gets people attention,
    -will adventure games persist if sex is added like in movies?
    -what about racism, homophobia, drugs?

[Darth Mandarb]

I think adventure games (for me) are just an extension of me.  I make the games I want to make ... and for me, I like a serious line, with comedy interjected.

To answer the deeper question you ask ...

I don't think that making them more serious would help the genre.  At least not a 2D (psuedo 3D) adventure game.  The sad reality (as I see it) is that we are now in the 3D world.  I think there's a market for adventure games sure (as the genre still is appealing) but to be commercially viable (mainstream) I just don't see making them more serious as a way to put them on the shelves of Best Buy.

I have been wanting to make FPS type environment, but Adventure game-play style game for years (even started on it a few years back with the HL2 engine) but I think the modern trend is "if I'm not running and gunning I'm not interested".  I think the "pace" of adventure games just doesn't sit well with today's gamers.

[Tuomas]

Well as I see it, most entertain themselves with making the games. And people, who find serious matters entertaining are scarce. I don't think Adventure games *should* be anything else than what they are, but they sure do provide good grounds to many different ways.

I started a project once, which was completely about the political issues of the Congolese presidential elections, with of course an entertaining side ot it, but mostly about the political issues mainstream media doesn't tell. It was about corruption, I've got some 2-3 bgs ready, 6 characters and most of the plot, and whoel map and stuff. But the thing is, the occurances int he world were much faster than I was, and everything happened already, so a realtime political adventure about real life events would have been a looking back to the history had I ever finished it.

But consider makig a game on something that is hip atm, like environmental issues. You'll most probably get a lot of good feedback, but also people who don't think like you, and will point it out. Also, adventure games are very graphical games, so basically things like violence and sex are pretty hard to approach, at least in a convincing serious manner. Most will just look humorous. It's not about making it serious but people seeing it as serious or just something not made as a joke. The people that are the main audience to computer games are really not the ones to play games for learning/civiliziting reasons, but for entertainment. Or that's how I see it. Of course, a good, interesting game, with a brief story in the end about reality would be a splendid way, and in my case, very welcome too!

[Babar]

   - do you think adventure games are a good way to show artistic, deep issues, social and sexual differences?
   - do you think we (amateur producers) should only focus on pure entertaining games?

I don't think you should be separating those into two disjoint categories. Games should definitely be about pure entertaining. Doesn't mean they can't be about something else. Although personally, I dislike the idea of using computer games (or books, or movies) to push an agenda, no matter how well intentioned. There is nothing crude or lowly about making a game for the sake of making a game (as opposed to making a point).

It'd be interesting to see the day when the M sign in the corner means you have to be a certain age to appreciate the game (as opposed to meaning that you'll see blood and guts and boobies), but I don't see that time coming soon. And those sort of games probably wouldn't sell well, either.

[Matti]

I don't think Adventure games *should* be anything else than what they are

Exactly. And what they are depends on who you - the game maker - are. Of course adventures can be very serious, dealing with political and social issues, if YOU are interested in such things and want to put them in your game. Same thing with sexuality, crime, drugs etc. You should always do what interests YOU and what you find important, otherwise the game wouldn't be 'original', but more like mainstream-games who are supposed to please the mass.

As for me I wouldn't even consider making an adventure if I wouldn't have artistic skills. I'm drawing, I'm writing and making an adventure is just another genre of art I'm currently experimenting with. And it doesn't matter if I draw or write or make a game it always expresses myself to a certain point. The topics and the settings I choose aren't just coming from nowhere. And I really just make the game for myself. This should not be misunderstood as some sort of selfishness: I'd be happy if people like my game. But it's also okay if they don't, I don't make it for them or anybody. I just make it like I just draw or write something.

-> It's the people themselves who make the game interesting respectively the differences of the adventures who basically depend on their makers is what makes the genre interesting.

-> The opposite is making games for an audience as great as possible just to sell it or something...

-> I don't think adventures should be serious as well as I don't want aventures to be funny in general. Everything is great as long as it is original and creative or just entertaining.

[miguel]

Thanks for the answers guys.

When I got into contact with adventure games, my first one was "The Hobbit" on a ZX Spectrum, I thought of adventure games as the "alternative" way of gaming experience. It was realy different from anything I was playing at that time.
It allowed me to think, not only react to things on the screen, but to think about what my actions could interfere on the game world.

A game named "The Fish" was just amazing with lots of possibilities of interaction with the software.
All those great text parser adventures got better technically but they were most of the time based on well written books.
It had a good quality about it, you were being entertained while reading.
When graphical adventures came in, apart from the classic ones (MI,KQ,etc...) the genre turned into a business that filled the market with bad stories and buggy interfaces.
Also, the "independent" mood was lost forever.

I think we should keep that alternative way of playing games alive.
Adventure Games can be the Cannes of games.

[Alarconte]

- do you think adventure games are a good way to show artistic, deep issues, social and sexual differences?

Adventure Games talk 'bout this issues the great part of time,

   - do you think we (amateur producers) should only focus on pure entertaining games? 

There is no reason to play a boring game. A boring game is not a game. The definition of game is to entertain.

    -are we here because we want to make more MI games?

Normally the Lucasarts games bored me the half of time. Lucas games are good, but well, I think they die after MI2 and Indiana Jones and the Fate of Atlantis. (I HATE sam & max games xD)

But Grim Fandango was Great also, and is far from make a comparative with MI

    -are we ready to evolve and skip into a different genre?

People make RPGs, pseudoaction games, only-talk games, comercial simulation games, RTS games... isn't enougth?


    -will adventure games persist if sex is added like in movies?

I don't understand the question. There is or isn't sex in adventure games? 'Cause they're alot of adventere games with sex and without, as First objetive or complementary.

    -what about racism, homophobia, drugs?

You played Roccio's Quest? xDDD But, in comercial games, there's is a lot of games talking about this things. See adventure catalog far from the classics.

About the seriosity

Dreamfall, The Dig, Prisioner of Ice, Even Broken Sword....

And a lot of haves have a serious plot but with some humor inside. Althougth, Isn't the life serious and funny at the same time? Isn't the way the people can survive to the hard world?...

[miguel]

Thanks for answering my questions Alarconte,

I agree with most of what you said, but I do buy new games ( Adventure Games and Fotball Manager games only) and I think that the producers approach on 90% of those games is "Hollywood" like, do you get what I am saying?

The kind of approach hofmeier did with his game is totally different from that, it's almost interactive art, it's a new way of representing reality and I can see humour in it as well, only it is different, it is not in your face.

Like, you mentioned Broken Sword to be a 'serious' game, but really, I think that it is very juvenile and the 3rd part was more of the same with better graphics. Dreamfall was a beautiful game, but very romanticised, I really do not get to play a game that makes me feel like the adult I am.

Drugs, sex and other controversial issues are not dealt on adventure games, Alarconte, not the way movies, literature or music do, anyway.

hope we can continue this debate, and thanks for your answer.

[radiowaves]

I am more into serious games, so my answer is yes. I am sick of those wannabe Monkey Island clones... its just so unoriginal. All there seems to be in AGS community are games with some random thing, which is supposed to be humorous, a shitty sequel to some classic or some idiotic parody... No serious games...

However, a serious game should be serious, not some overhyped fear game, that has same sounds and same kind of 'creepy' graphics all over, like blood on every god damn wall...

A serious game should be real.

[tube]

I was already under the impression that most reasonably recent commercial adventure games seem to be much more serious than the "golden age" classics. Just take a gander at this listing and count the serious-to-comedy ratio. I'd say it rests quite heavily on the serious side.

It is true that most game industry wannabes seem to produce MI clones of some sort, but maybe the reason is that a serious game needs a good plot and quite a bit of work on the design side to be well received, whereas light comedy can be quite successfully produced with the unrelated jokes approach, as evidenced by many popular comedy movies and sitcoms.

Personally I prefer well written comedy over any other genre in both games and movies.

[miguel]

Hi tube,
thanks for answering,
yes I agree with you, many titles this days go for a more mature audience,
but what about the alternative side of art? Like, say, a inddie adventure game style?
Do I make sense at all?
thanks

[Andorxor]

Including drugs,sex and violence because you can isn't serious it is childish and a cheap trick to gain a audience,but excluding them even if your story could gain something from this elements is childish too.

[miguel]

Including drugs,sex and violence because you can isn't serious it is childish and a cheap trick to gain a audience,but excluding them even if your story could gain something from this elements is childish too.

That is not the issue here, Andorxor,
writers and/or movie producers have included sex sequences on their work to increase audience interest as far as modern life exists as humans are driven by sex, drugs and some rock&roll. If that adds on the quality of the product is another question, it may do, or not. And I never said people should include it on their games. I've asked IF it would be a proper thing to do.
Excluding sex from any art form sometimes has to do with the audience it is meant for. Sometimes the author does not want/is not allowed to show explicit behaviours.
thanks for answering, Andorxor, and I hope we can continue this debate

[Snarky]

I'm not sure I see what you're getting at. Sure, in some art forms (TV and mainstream cinema, most prominently), authors are sometimes restricted in what they can show. But that's not the case for AGS games. Game creators can make exactly the games they want, virtually without limitations. And whether or not it will be entered into the annals of RON, or listed in the AGS games database, or whatever, you'll still be able to put it out there.

If adventure game creators want to tackle more controversial issues, they will. If players want to play the resulting games, they will.

Personally, I wouldn't want to tell people making free, homemade games that they should do this or that. Only: They should make whatever games they feel like making. I think it would be great to see some more thematic ambition and originality among new AGS games, but just like not every book ought to be, you know, Crime and Punishment, and like there is room on television for both The Wire and Family Guy, I would hope "more serious" adventure games wouldn't be at the expense of silly, inconsequential or childish ones.

Would this kind of stuff revive, or at least raise the profile of, mainstream adventure games? Eh, probably not. Sex and drugs are hardly going to cause much of a public uproar, much less lead to any kind of artistic renaissance. But it's worth noting that The Shivah got more press than pretty much any other AGS game, mostly for all those sexy Rabbis. Going just a little bit outside of the conventional acn create a lot of interest.

[miguel]

Yes, the Shivah or anything with Rabbis will turn people on.

Well, I guess I got pretty much the answers I wanted and I believe this thread had a lot of interesting parts.
I just think that adventure games are powerful enough to be a consistent art form.
Through the forums I see many, many people with lots of talent and ideas.

Thanks everybody

[(deleted)]

(deleted)

[Vince Twelve]

Well said, hof.  Specifically that eloquent last sentence.   

But yeah, what hof said.  Rather than being a hindrance, Being low/no budget can be a boon to innovation and unique (and important) storytelling.  And I'm all for stories that deal with issues that the mainstream developers would shy away from.

That said, there's sometimes a fine line (and sometimes a huge difference) between dealing with a difficult issue and being an asshole.  So let's be careful.

[miguel]

Hi Vince,

the "asshole" link didn't allow me to download anything, I guess because it has nothing to download.
Those guys should ask for it to be removed because it's not even funny.
-----------------------------

[Vince Twelve]

Perhaps I should have linked here: http://www.adventuregamestudio.co.uk/yabb/index.php?topic=30454.0

You can still download my parody of it, and imagine what the original was like.

[SurplusGamer]

I think a better question is 'should there be more serious adventure games?'

I think the answer to THAT one is yes. People should be moving adventure games in any direction which is currently lacking. That's how a genre grows and develops.

Take Interactive Fiction, for example - that's grown from the simple dungeon hacking of the early days to all sorts of different styles. Every time someone produces a text game that genuinely surprises or makes someone feel something they haven't felt with an IF game before, that gives the player more reasons to keep partaking in the artform.

Currently, the indie graphic adventure community is has a lot of spoofs, tribute-games and titles that try to recapture the humour of someone's favourite adventure of old. That's fine! We all like nostalgia, but relying on nostalgia alone is almost like admitting the genre is dead.

We should, and I think we DO encourage adventure games which try something different, and creating a deliberately and uniquely serious game is one way of doing that.

However, I don't think it is necessarily a goal that designers SHOULD be aspiring to. It's just one of many options. Nor should a designer entirely shun their influences. If Monkey Island is the adventure game you're most inspired by, then it's absolutely okay for the influence of that game to creep into your own, as long as that influence doesn't amount to plagiarism.

Just as someone is rarely funny if their attitude screams 'hey, look at me, aren't I funny?' the same is true about seriousness. If you try too hard, it just looks pretentious. The key is to find the style that fits your own personality best, a personality that may have a vast array of influences, but should also be able to bring something fresh and new. As good stage improvisers know, the best and 'cleverest' ideas never come from the person who is desperately trying to be the best or the cleverest.