Game Theory: Puzzle Motivation.

[Helm]

A very narrow definition of 'puzzle' hurts what adventure games can do. Before I start ranting on my own, I'd like to invite talk on what a 'puzzle' is. Be expansive, include anything you think falls into this.

[lo_res_man]

Whatever advances the story in an interactive way(that is, you choose to do it), and or opens up a new area for exploration. I am sure you can think of exceptions, but its the best I can think of right know. 

[Helm]

So what is the difference then between a puzzle, and an obstacle?

[lo_res_man]

hard to describe, in fact is there a difference? Why do you solve a puzzle? to surmount a obstacle. How do you get past an obstacle? You solve a puzzle.

[Helm]

I am suggesting broader definition because puzzle to me, seems firmly entrenched on the 'use item on item' mentality. Whereas an obstacle could be a npc's mood (angry guard you calm down via smart conversation), or it could be to traverse some difficult or dangerous terrain using data you've gathered in the process of the game, or it could be to overcome a huge amount of bureocracy in an office to get whatever. How many of these games have we played? And how many of the 'give fish to fisherman to get hook, use hook on rope, use grappling hook on window' variety?

Obstacles are in every sort of game. Puzzles however, are a different thing. I'd gladly play an adventure game where I have to negotiate different obstacles in different ways, without a single oldschool puzzle in the way. I am not trying to make any 'realism' case, but I don't walk around with pockets full of inventory items, and I negotiate obstacles every day. Some of them boring, probably all of them mundane, but not all of them impractical to game design. I think *any* story is wounded by excessive adventure game puzzling.

[lo_res_man]

Yes just like a game can be drowned by story. but I can see what you mean by puzzles tend to mean "use thing on other thing" but that is but one type of puzzle. though the word is rather mechanistic, ( makes you think of jigsaw, or *shudder* slider puzzles) it can mean so much more, like the silly bucket puzzle in "MI2: LeChucks revenge" or the coffee puzzle in Grim Fendango ( I wanna be a thunder boy!)

[HillBilly]

I'd gladly play an adventure game where I have to negotiate different obstacles in different ways, without a single oldschool puzzle in the way.

Could you give an example of this, and how it would be used in a full-length game without getting repetive along the way?

[Helm]

Sure.

Discarded Helm game idea #234265247:  I play the part of a man stranded on an island. How I got there is not very important. My first interest is securing food and potable water. I scavenge in the wilderness, trying to avoid dangers and get my basic resources going. Then I make basic tools with which I defend myslef if needed, fish, harvest, hunt and upgrade my living conditions (thatched hut by the beach, wee!) more efficiently or what have you. If it rains a lot and I have no shelter, I might get sick and die. Once my basic needs are taken care of, I start to travel the island and map its' geography, slowly finding remains of an older civilization, clues that lead me to search the various caves on the island. I fight off a bear in one cave, carefully navigate the slipperly terrain inside, find it too dark. I emerge to search for means of fire, find some broken lens, concentrate the sun's rays (only on a very sunny day) on a piece of wood, or alterately, I try the rubbing wood together thing to get fire. Anyway, once I have fire (also, cooked fish straight from the sea, but watch out for the shark!) I return to the caves and with the added illumination find a series of painted instructions on a wall. They're very symbolic, and I have to discern where the clues lead me on the island. Now with fire, I may maintain a beacon flame at an elevated spot on the island, that needs regular tending, and hope that one randomly passing ship will see me. On the adventuring front, once I find the location the hints hinted at, I find a hidden passage to the deeper cave system of the island, where only the braver survivor dares to dwell...

at the end of the game, I'm ranked for how I survived, what habits I had, if I was a vegetarian, a pacifist or none of these things, what I ate and how much I did, how sick I got and how many days I lived. How much of the island I charted, what kind of clues did I gather and how far into the subterrainian mystery sideplot of the island I get into. Finally, if I was rescued, and what my overal morale was.

This is a kind of adventure game I'd love to play. A very realized version of the 'deserted island' cliche. Now think how most people have utilized the deserted island scenario in actual adventure games. It's endless day, you walk wherever you want, no danger, you collect objects and combine them and solve PUZZLES until the designer deems it right to transport you from this locale to the next one. Boring, underutilized, marred by unambitious design. Everything I say above is not easy to make in AGS, but scripting-wise nothing is stopping you. I can't do it, but somebody else might. It's difficult to do, but it's a better game than the usual fare.

[Seleceus]

Alright, I've been reading this post for days now, and have come to one conclusion:  It's the same discussion on every adventure site, continued in most adventure articles, and beat to death on most adventure forums.  And if that's not enough, the 'I.F.' sites are adding their opinions to the case.  So, as to not let us fall behind, I'll add yet more fodder to the fire.

I do believe there is a distinct difference between puzzles, and obstacles.

puz-zle
  v.tr.
    1. To baffle or confuse mentally by presenting or being a difficult problem or matter.
    2. To clarify or solve (something confusing) by reasoning or study.
    3. To ponder over a problem in an effort to solve or understand it.
  n.
    1. Something, such as a game, toy, or problem, that requires ingenuity and often persistence in solving or assembling.

ob·sta·cle
  n.
    One that opposes, stands in the way of, or holds up progress.

Now, I realize that it may be tacky to quote definitions, and I'll accept that (for now), but I think it's necessary to make my point.  Within an adventure game, puzzles and obstacles may indeed go hand-in-hand, but to vastly different purposes.  An obstacle is merely something, or someone, that's in the way and needs to be overcome/circumvented so that the player may continue.  That's it.  No big deal here.  But a puzzle, now that's a different matter.  A puzzle can tease, entertain, and move the story forward, if designed well.

To my mind, a puzzle, within the confines of a game, is anything that can be accomplished by the player.  Be it unlocking/opening doors, getting information from the NPC in the other room, or shutting down a doomsday device.  It doesn't matter what the task, how simple, complex, or convoluted, as long as it requires more than clicking 'Next', or leaving the room, it's a puzzle.  If it's in inventory, dialog, or multiple rooms, it's a puzzle.  Click it or parse it, it's still a puzzle.  But, the 500 pound gorilla in the room is:  What differentiates good puzzles from the bad ones? 

A good puzzle fits in the setting, doesn't make assumptions, or force the player to do anything randomly.  A good puzzle will also challenge the player to think within the game-world defined by the developer, and make sense once it's solved.  Each of these points can be discussed endlessly, as to what they mean for each game, but for sake of brevity we'll condense them for general consumption.

- Setting:  The puzzle must use components, knowledge, or language consistent with the rest of the story.  Keeping the technology/magic/realism level the same is important.  Good puzzles, like good writing, require what authors call a suspension of disbelief.  If the developer breaks that suspension then the puzzle is little more than fool-the-player.  This is frustrating at best.

- Assumptions:  Puzzles shouldn't rely on specialized knowledge, or education, that isn't hinted at within the game.  It's absolutely fine if a player has to go look something up, if he has a clue where to start.  The other pitfall for an international gaming community, such as this, is euphemisms.  Expecting everyone to understand a particular slang can be a puzzle killer.

- Random:  I despise randomly set locks, color codes, passwords, etc...  You can't figure out random.  Random should be saved for stock character responses, or anything else that gets boring after reading it the umpteenth time.

- Sense and Sensibility:  If the puzzle means nothing to the plot, once it's solved, it shouldn't have been there to begin with.  If the solution isn't obvious, after it's over, then the puzzle was poorly conceived.  If the story can move on without it, well, let it.

Plot + setting + character.  It all adds up to one thing:  Good writing.  We've seen all of the puzzles based on surroundings and objects (setting).  We've gone through dialog trees of outlandish size (character).  But how many puzzles take advantage of plot?  What's plot but a series of conflicts and their solutions?  All good writing has conflict.  Ask any writer.  Conflict of interest, conflict with one's self, conflict with the environment, conflict on any scale.  It needs to be there to make a story interesting.  It's these conflicts that can create natural openings for some puzzles, and ones that have been very underutilized.  Don't take this as applying to only serious writing.  I wouldn't expect a 'Monty Python' game, and it's puzzles, to be anything less than absurd.  'Care-Bears' should be obnoxiously cute, and so should the puzzles.   Conflict exists in comedy, and childrens stories, too.

Anyway, just an idea of what makes a puzzle, and where to get some inspiration for them.

I'll close with one more (tacky) definition just to make sure that we know where these puzzles belong.

ad·ven·ture
  n.
    1.
      a. An undertaking or enterprise of a hazardous nature.
      b. An undertaking of a questionable nature, especially one involving intervention in another state's affairs.
    2. An unusual or exciting experience: an adventure in dining.
    3. Participation in hazardous or exciting experiences: the love of adventure.
   v. ad·ven·tured, ad·ven·tur·ing, ad·ven·tures
    1. To venture upon; undertake or try.
    2. To expose to danger or risk; hazard.
    3. To take a risk; dare.

[Shane 'ProgZmax' Stevens]

I play the part of a man stranded on an island. How I got there is not very important. My first interest is securing food and potable water. I scavenge in the wilderness, trying to avoid dangers and get my basic resources going. Then I make basic tools with which I defend myslef if needed, fish, harvest, hunt and upgrade my living conditions (thatched hut by the beach, wee!) more efficiently or what have you. If it rains a lot and I have no shelter, I might get sick and die. Once my basic needs are taken care of, I start to travel the island and map its' geography, slowly finding remains of an older civilization, clues that lead me to search the various caves on the island.

This smacks strongly of Robinson's Requiem, a very horrible game.  Also, it's more of a survival simulation than an adventure as you have broken it down into so many specific pieces that the 'adventure' aspect turns into a life sim.

[ManicMatt]

Sounds interesting Helm, like a realistic Harvest moon game! However your game idea seems to be lacking in anything resembling a story line? And I don't really like playing games where you are inevitably going to die than succeed, and then keep starting over again doing the same things from scratch but being more effecient at it. So it wouldn't appeal to me as I rarely play a game through more than twice these days. (Although being unemployed might change that..)

[Helm]

I think what I posted stronly rests within the definition of what an adventure game is: a game where exploration, discovery, conflict occurs, with the emphasis on story and characterization.

[MillsJROSS]

By looking up the term puzzle real quick (from dictionary.com) Puzzle: "To baffle or confuse mentally by presenting or being a difficult problem or matter." and Obstacle: " One that opposes, stands in the way of, or holds up progress."

I like the term obstacles much more than the term puzzle. It allows for some more abstract ways to hold the player back, than the term puzzle. The difference between the two, it would seem, is really whether or not whatever is holding us back is confusing to us or just difficult. So a puzzle to someone, might be an obstacle to another person, and vica versa. Obstacles are more apparent in other games, where it's obvious what you have to do, like in FPS's...to advance kill these people. But there definately have been adventure games with obstacles in them. Ex. SQ3, avoid killer robot in begining. There's really nothing hard to think about, just avoid being detected by it, by being quick about whatever you do.

This brings to mind something about puzzles, that I've preached before. Lucas Arts and a lot of newer games have coddled us adventure gamers. I say if you have an obstacle, where you're character has potential of being in danger, allow said character to die if he messes up. You can allow the player to restore or start at a point right before death, but once it's known you can't die, it makes obstacles like that non-sensical. Why try to make a scary forest, if there is no danger? If you don't want to make a game where you're character dies, that's fine. I just think that a puzzle has more weight, and more of an enjoyment factor if you can die. I just remember feeling fear for my character, and enjoying it more.

-MillsJROSS

[Helm]

Mills, which brings this to why I believe restore mechanics should be more like in roguelikes than they are in hold-your-hand-adventure-games.

[ManicMatt]

The storyline appears to be somewhat lightweight,  like Halo, or even half life 2.

Man wakes up deserted. (With no importance on how he got there?)

Man finds cave with writing in it.

The end!

I suppose it would be difficult to create a plot heavy free form game like this, what with so many variables. You'd need self adapting AI if there were other characters. I can't say I've read a book/seen a film with only one character on his own throughout the film. Even cast away had loved ones in it at some point.

Hey Helm, imagine if adventure games were popular and EA made them. Goodness knows they insult our intelligence with big massive arrows in game to show us we need to turn left. (From playing a DEMO of some James Bond game)

[Helm]

How much story you can put there can go from Sierra AGI Space Quest 1 to Gabriel Knight. I presented a gameplay model.

[Seleceus]

Helm:  My comments about conflict are no reflection on your post/story idea.  I was writing while you posted that.  And I agree that the length and breadth of the plot have little to do with continuity, or good puzzle design.

To die, or not to die.  That's another matter.  But, I am with MillsJROSS on this one:  A sufficiently violent story shouldn't be safe for the player.

[Redwall]

Also, it's more of a survival simulation than an adventure as you have broken it down into so many specific pieces that the 'adventure' aspect turns into a life sim.

An adventure game can't just be about survival, its puzzles based on surviving? I think your definition of adventure game is a little narrow...

[calacver]

http://www.oldmanmurray.com/features/78.html why not here hehe.

[Erenan]

I like Helm's desert island idea, and I hardly see how the terms we use to describe it are important. Well, I should rephrase that. The terms are perhaps important, but they don't change the actual content of the game. If the game is an enjoyable and engaging experience, then I'll play it.

In fact, Helm, I'm so interested in that idea, that I'd be willing to give scripting it a shot if you created the graphics. Of course, my scripting is a little messy, so I couldn't guarantee a terribly high level of quality.

Lately, I've been finding myself wanting to play games with a higher level of immersion and interactivity with the game world than usual. The world needs to feel like it's a living and breathing environment in which the player's options of action are many and varied. This can be difficult to implement, but not impossible, and I believe it to be very, very worthwhile if done properly.

As far as puzzles go, using item A on item B to remove obstacle C so that you can enter cave D and retrieve item E so that you can alter item F to give to dwarf G gets tedious, as does saying what I've just said. I'd like puzzles in-game to lean more towards being riddles, so that it's something integrated with the game environment that the player, being a part of that world (immersion!), must find a solution to. The key here is that the actions the player must do to solve problems should always be relevant to the in-game situation, should always make sense, and should involve actual brainwork instead of, "What combination of items is required to make the game keep moving?"