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[Babar]

I dislike nonlinearity when it messes around with the story. Having it so that I can toss the dress into the fire and get one ending where everything magically turns great vs wearing the dress and having everything turn out horrible is just irritating, especially when otherwise, all the puzzles are EXACTLY THE SAME.
Having slight changes to the story with the rest being EXACTLY THE SAME, doesn't make for replayability. It just makes for boring replayings.

Nonlinearity while solving puzzles is great. You can open the door by using the axe on it. Or the old newspaper under the door trick. Or knocking. Or calling in the GPS coordinates of the door and having a missile blow it open.

In fact, I like nonlinearity in the sense of "Hey, why don't I forget the door, and go find the lost Helmet of Evel Knieval instead?" as well.

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PS: Merry Christmas Alfred Robbins WAS INCREDIBLE!

[MrColossal]

Nonlinearity while solving puzzles is great. You can open the door by using the axe on it. Or the old newspaper under the door trick. Or knocking. Or calling in the GPS coordinates of the door and having a missile blow it open.

Can you name a game that allows for this? I can't think of one personally and I'm interested.

[Ali]

Post Mortem attempted this very thing and failed dreadfully. There is a locked door in a hotel which can be opened several ways, but they depend upon what path you have chosen.

The hotelier asks what your job is, and the answer you give dictates what path you follow. As the player you do not know this. If you say you're a journalist you can pick up a pencil and newspaper and do the old classic.

If you say you're a detective (as I did), you have to find a different way of opening the door. However, you can still pick up the newspaper and put it under the door. You just can't pick up the pencil. The pencil that's right there on the desk. Taunting you with its pencil shape.

There's nothing in the game to tell you why the obvious solution is impossible (or to explain why only journalists need pencils).

For this kind of puzzle to be successful, I think the player would need to be given the kind of freedom offered by games like Morrowind and Oblivion. In these games a door could be opened by finding a key, picking the lock, casting a spell, charming someone into giving you the key. Maybe even making yourself invisible and following someone through.

[Babar]

Can you name a game that allows for this? I can't think of one personally and I'm interested.

Nothing so huge as I mentioned (maybe the bouncer at the start of Fate of Atlantis?), but I'm pretty sure I've played several games where sharp edged inventory items were interchangeable in their use, for example.

Or me being irritating and hybrid in Quest for Glory, and getting stuff like the potion-maker's ring in a way that didn't conform to my class.

[MrColossal]

Babar, the suggestions you offered about the door are quite different from being able to use some sharp edged inventory items for the same puzzle.

So I'm curious, where does the love for nonlinearity come from? Or is it a love for the potential or the idea of nonlinearity?

"In fact, I like nonlinearity in the sense of "Hey, why don't I forget the door, and go find the lost Helmet of Evel Knieval instead?" as well."

This line confuses me too, can you be more specific? Also offer an example of where you can do this in previous games?

The reason for all these questions is because I am not sold on the idea of nonlinearity in traditional point and click adventure games and want to be persuaded!

[TheJBurger]

So I'm curious, where does the love for nonlinearity come from? Or is it a love for the potential or the idea of nonlinearity?

"In fact, I like nonlinearity in the sense of "Hey, why don't I forget the door, and go find the lost Helmet of Evel Knieval instead?" as well."

This line confuses me too, can you be more specific? Also offer an example of where you can do this in previous games?

The reason for all these questions is because I am not sold on the idea of nonlinearity in traditional point and click adventure games and want to be persuaded!

I think Duty & Beyond (by Mordalles) had something like this. In each of the four stages/worlds of the game, you could complete the main quest, but there was always an optional side quest with extra puzzles in order to get a special gem, not needed to complete the game (unless you wanted the best ending). I quite liked this approach, because it gave you optional puzzles to solve in case you were bored or stuck with the main puzzles, but you never really had to solve the extra puzzles.

Looking back at non-linear gaming as a whole, I think Zelda really got it right. Most of the Zelda games set up optional non-linear scenarios, scattered around the world, such as a cave filled in, or an inaccessible piece of heart across a chasm. You're never required to complete these puzzles, but they exist independently of the somewhat linear narrative.

I think one of the keys to non-linearity, in that sense, is making it optional.

[thecatamites]

Also i think it's a good idea in general to make puzzles that are kind of tied in with the game world, not just in tone (ie more cartoonish puzzles for humour games etc) but that they encourage the player to explore and get a sense of what the world or characters are about. Bad puzzles are ones that feel like they curtail exploration, like seeing a cool futuristic city out the window and having to go through some tedious number puzzle to get out there and wander around it. Good puzzles are ones that feel like an extension of exploration, that draw the player in and make them involved not just by the result of the puzzle but through the actions required in solving it.

I'm being kind of vague here since I don't play enough adventure games to come up with good examples but i guess it's the difference between having puzzles that feel like impediments to the 'real game' and having ones that feel like the real game itself, like the player is PROGRESSING when he or she solves it instead of just getting rid of a distraction. I really liked the notepad idea in Discworld Noir because while the puzzles involved often played like inventory puzzles (use x on y) solving them and getting more clues felt like you were unravelling the game's story instead of just uh running errands or whatever.

[Babar]

So I'm curious, where does the love for nonlinearity come from? Or is it a love for the potential or the idea of nonlinearity?

The potential, sure, but also in games. As I mentioned, the bouncer at the beginning of Indiana Jones & The Fate of Atlantis had 3 ways to be dealt with (and although it was just that single instance, and mostly just a plot point, it was still great).

If you played QfG (1, at least I remember had this) as a hybrid character (with reasonable stats in all areas), you had the opportunity to solve several puzzles in several ways

Spoiler

In the potion-lady example I gave, I was finding it difficult to get my hands on the telekinesis spell, so I ended up trying to climb the tree instead and got the ring down. Another way to have done it was to toss stones at the tree

[close]

"In fact, I like nonlinearity in the sense of "Hey, why don't I forget the door, and go find the lost Helmet of Evel Knieval instead?" as well."

This line confuses me too, can you be more specific? Also offer an example of where you can do this in previous games?

Most LucasArts games had this, I think, although Monkey Island 1 and 2, with their neatly divided parts showed it off most easily. If I got tired of trying to get the treasure, I could spend some time in effort to beat the sword master, etc.

It wasn't nonlinearity in the sense of diverging storylines, but that you didn't HAVE to stay on one thing.

The reason for all these questions is because I am not sold on the idea of nonlinearity in traditional point and click adventure games and want to be persuaded!

As I said, neither am I, when it comes to a nonlinear storyline. Having multiple storylines depending on what actions you take is immensely frustrating for me, especially since most games don't offer any new "goodies" (animations, BGs, puzzles) when you take a different path on a replay: it just feels like playing exactly the same game, with specific points where you can make certain arbitrary decisions that change the story.

And I don't mean it in the sense of Morrowind type open sandbox games. While they're great in their own right, they don't make very very tightly knit storylines. However, the example Ali gave is probably applicable in the sense of puzzles.

Personally, I REALLY dislike puzzles in adventure games. If you ask me, it is almost impossible to get it right, a balancing act between making it an interactive movie, and trying to figure out the designers thought-process at every turn. I'd be all for replacing the puzzles as a gameplay element with something else, but most others aren't really tailored towards story-driven games.

[ThreeOhFour]

I think one of the keys to non-linearity, in that sense, is making it optional.

Some games do get it right, I believe. My examples here would be the two games I mention far too often: Deus Ex and Planescape: Torment.

Whereas non linearity in a game like Boiling Point makes me stop focusing on the mission and going snake hunting, non linearity in games like these really add to the experience and really give you the ability to be creative with how you play the game (Deus Ex in particular allowed for some wonderful creativity).

I don't recall this sort of non linearity in adventure games at all though.

[blueskirt]

I don't recall this sort of non linearity in adventure games at all though.

5 words: Indy and the Last Crusade.
Starting in Castle Brunwald, the game turn into a sandbox where you're given the goal to find, free and escape with your dad and you can tackle the guards that stand in your way the way you want to. You can fight the guards, if you don't want to fight, you can disguise, bluff, puzzle and bribe your way in, you can also avoid a lot of guards by sneaking in, waiting for guards to have their back turned to sneak past them, ducking in rooms to avoid patrols, if you didn't fight anybody, guards won't bother you unless if you walk straight into them when you wear the officer uniform IIRC, and you can find a couple of alternate roads that avoid some guards entirely. And if you beat all the guards patrolling the hallways, you could escape from the castle without being arrested. It's like an Hitman level.

I wish they had more than 6 months to ship that game, it could have been so much better. And I wish they didn't strip all of these options when they designed the Fists path in FOA.

[Danman]

How can you guys forget the biggest classic of nonlinearity?? 
Maniac Mansion

[Igor Hardy]

I think one of the keys to non-linearity, in that sense, is making it optional.

Some games do get it right, I believe. My examples here would be the two games I mention far too often: Deus Ex and Planescape: Torment.

I agree about Planescape, but Deus Ex fellt terribly linear and confining to me, much more than your average FPS. The supposed choosing between different paths to your goal was like choosing between several tight parallel corridors where you can go only forwards and backwards without any freedom of action. Sometimes the game was literally like that.

A truly well-realized non-linear FPP was System Shock 2.

[paolo]

Some people think a hotspot indicator gives away the puzzle, but if pixel hunting is the puzzle, I'm not interested.  If a hotspot indicator gives away the puzzle, it's probably not a good puzzle in the first place.

Well, as I see it, a hotspot indicator only gives away the puzzle there is only one hotspot to indicate. A good game will hide that hotspot among many others. I love ending up in a new room and finding a dozen new hotspots to play around with before I get down to the more serious business of solving the next puzzle.