Hi,
I'm currently designing a game which will have a lot of jokes in it. I'm worried that it might be a bit joke heavy, so I'm seeking sage counsel.
What do you think is the right balance between jokes/puzzles/action?
Do you prefer visual gags or wordy puns?
Do you like old school, pythonesque or satirical jokes?
In short I'm trying to get an idea of what my target audience likes and what the right balance is.
Any thoughts or suggestions would help.
There's no one way to satisfy everyone -- just do what feels natural to you. If I were to give you a hint in any direction, though, I'd say think of the base material -- Danger Mouse and Count Duckula -- and the kind of humor those represented, and try to work with that.
My advice? Make a game funny to you. Only then your humor will be natural and you'll have most fun developing the game. You like Pythons? Make it pythonesque. Don't seek common denominator. It's impossible to satisfy everyone. At least that's what my experience with gamemaking taught me.
I take your point fitz & gribbler, trying to satisfy everyone will only end up in satisfying no one. Good point and certainly the approach I'll be taking is making a game I enjoy. The trouble is you can get too engrossed with a project your working on and not look at it in a critical light, was trying to get a feel for what others think.
Perhaps some clarification is in order. I personally have played games where the player and an NPC are chatting along quite nicely while I'm at my keyboard screaming 'GET ON WITH IT' (really hate games that don't allow you to skip chat). In the game I'm developing humor is a big part of the appeal, but that can lead to long(ish) periods where you as the player feel like your a spectator not a participant. I'm just trying to get an idea if others feel that way. To tackle that issue I've thought of using visual gags in the background as one approach, leaving the player free to continue exploring etc. Its a more tricky approach, its just something I'm mulling over.
Quote from: Dadalusthe player and an NPC are chatting along quite nicely while I'm at my keyboard screaming 'GET ON WITH IT' (really hate games that don't allow you to skip chat).
Don't play my game. :)
Quote from: Gribbler on Wed 06/08/2014 20:21:33
Quote from: Dadalusthe player and an NPC are chatting along quite nicely while I'm at my keyboard screaming 'GET ON WITH IT' (really hate games that don't allow you to skip chat).
Don't play my game. :)
Or mine (laugh). I actually made it my ambition to write lenghty responses to every action in "Gray" -- so there are walls of texts to get through and it's too much for most people. Did I expect it? Yeah. Do I feel like I failed? No. It was super fun to write. But theeeeen I had to go over all of it for the Polish translation -- and I get how the players felt :P So in "Monty" there is no spoken dialogue at all (laugh). Play that one, if you dare ;)
I'm a sucker for wordplay. I love a good pun, especially if it's one I haven't already thought of.
Maybe you could change Penfold's name to Punfold and just have him telling dad jokes throughout the whole game... Or not, hehe.
Visual humour, too, is important to me but this may require more in terms of animation. If you think you've got the time and patience to make loads of funny animations, then great. Not me though. Can't animate to save my life.
That said, I advise laying off the three-headed monkey island references for a while. We've kinda been there and done that to death now.
To fitz & Gribbler : Opps, didnt know you both had wordy games, but each to his own. Will give monty a look.
To Stupot+ : thanks for the input, no three-headed monkey island jokes I promise (though there is a visual nod to MI, its very brief 1 second at most). The jokes will mostly be puns and visual gags. I have no idea how good an animator I am as its not something I've tackled before. Currently reading the Animators Survival Kit.
I think that if something is so funny that it makes your ribs ache and provided it is not stupid you can add it as light relief after something has happened, like a James Bond quip (laugh)
Even visual gags can at times be so dam funny. Imagine being got at by a wild dog, you turn around and there is a great big hole in your pants, the look on the players face should be priceless (laugh)
Depends on the game obviously! But it does seem like a pretty common pitfall of interaction writing is trying too hard to make every line funny or sarcastic, and you end up with a game that's lacking in baseline sincerity. Think of a game you know is hilarious, replay it, and take note of how often lines are jokes, how much of the humor is quip vs. situational, etc.
Well it seems that the general consensus is 'Do a game you think is funny'.
Its definitely a starting point but I don't know if thats the full solution. I like Trapezoids suggestion about replaying past games to get a feel for what works, that feels like more of a way to tackle the issue.
You're asking for the holy grail.
There is a very fine line between a funny dialogue and a tedious one.
I think the best way to tackle it is to let people who you think have the "right" sense of humor to enjoy the game play it, and see their reactions. You'll be able to spot which jokes work and which don't.
But even that might not be enough, as I can find a dialogue funny on a Monday and not funny on a Tuesday, depending on my mood at that day.
So good luck with that.. ;)
One last thought- I think the beginning of the game is very important, if you find the first jokes funny, you'll probably be more inclined to laugh at the rest of jokes too, even if they're not as good.
I don't think I'm looking for the Holy Grail (claps two half coconut shells together).
Doing a little research into it I looked at stand up comedians. They craft jokes that they find are funny, but very few would do an act without testing them out. They do their act before smaller audiences, refining, and sometimes dropping, jokes along the way.
So testing seems to be an appropriate method of polishing the game.
I like what tzachs says about the beginning of the game, setting your stall out early on seems like a good idea.
At the moment I think my approach should be to :
1. Get a rough draft of the game together.
2. Test out sections of the game with differing groups.
3. Refine based on reactions, and perhaps repeat 2.
More or less what tzachs is suggesting, though I think a wide range of people would be more fitting.
Or maybe I'm just over thinking. Hold on Ive just seen a shrubbery salesman...
Another thing I remembered, which is something I noticed in TV shows like The Simpsons (back when it was still funny I mean) etc.
They paced their real side splitting jokes well by making sure there was a "cool down" period in between filled with "just a chuckle" jokes before hitting you with the next "killer gag"...
If all the super-funny stuff is clumped together in one spot it reduces the impact of the jokes quite a bit. You have to give the audience time to calm down again after a great joke, occupy them with some low-key humour, and then spring the next biggie on them.
Easier said than done of course (especially if the game structure is very non-linear), but I think important to keep in mind when timing humour.
QuoteThey paced their real side splitting jokes well by making sure there was a "cool down" period in between filed with "just a chuckle" jokes before hitting you with the next "killer gag"...
That reminds me of something that was in a book on magic theory (about showmanship not actual illusions) called 'Strong Magic' by Darwin Ortiz . One of its suggestions was waves of performance, start off slow, hit your peak, taper off then repeat with each peak slightly higher than the last.
Cheers Mandle, you've reminded me of an old book I haven't read in over a decade, Im going to have to dig it out now :)
Quote from: Dadalus on Mon 11/08/2014 13:08:49
QuoteThey paced their real side splitting jokes well by making sure there was a "cool down" period in between filed with "just a chuckle" jokes before hitting you with the next "killer gag"...
That reminds me of something that was in a book on magic theory (about showmanship not actual illusions) called 'Strong Magic' by Darwin Ortiz . One of its suggestions was waves of performance, start off slow, hit your peak, taper off then repeat with each peak slightly higher than the last.
Cheers Mandle, you've reminded me of an old book I haven't read in over a decade, Im going to have to dig it out now :)
Very interesting indeed...I would say that magic and humour are both very similar disciplines in fact:
Both rely on the element of surprise to provoke laughter or amazement: You don't laugh at a joke if you saw the punchline coming, and you don't gape at a magic trick if you knew what was going to happen...
Magicians also tend to include a lot of comedy in their acts...well, the banter also distracts the audience from the mechanics of the trick that are being put in place ;)
Sounds like a good read though...An adventure game is also kinda like a magic show, so probably worth a read for developers...
I'd say, unlike magic, start with something really funny. If you take too long to build that funny atmosphere, you'll lose the attention of the player. If it's a funny game, you gotta show that it's funny right off the bat. It's called setting the tone. Play Ben There Dan That (http://www.adventuregamestudio.co.uk/site/games/game/1056/) (or just watch the first four minutes on YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oMO6SKl4-Ok)) to see a good example. The dialogue is short, serving both the entertain (humour) and set the scene. There is no time for tedium: the player is thrown right into the game and the humour all at once.
Good example Baron. Setting the tone is important and I think that can be done quickly and easily. Love 'Ben There Dan That' and its balance is spot on.
The book I mentioned was about pacing and making the mundane interesting. I think there are many examples of too many jokes spoiling the plot etc, and was looking at various sources to combat that.
I think its time to put this topic to bed. There are better minds than ours (at least mine anyway) that have discussed the right way to present humor, and I suspect we will be going round in circles if we continue.
I shall leave you with this courtesy of Monty Python. Its an example of how to set your tone, pacing, not overloading your audience with rapid-fire jokes and finally how to make the ordinary interesting (think 'My dog has no nose' isn't funny? watch this).
The Funniest Joke In The World (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8gpjk_MaCGM)
Now if only I had a tenth of their talent.
Quote from: Dadalus on Thu 14/08/2014 04:44:25
I think its time to put this topic to bed. There are better minds than ours (at least mine anyway) that have discussed the right way to present humor, and I suspect we will be going round in circles if we continue.
Although I agree with you that we will never in this thread definitively nail down the essence of humour, I would be equally reluctant to trust the "experts". Humour is a very idiosyncratic thing: what works in one context won't necessarily work in another. Plus there's a definite shelf life to humour, so what was written at one point in a book might not still be funny. Have you ever watched a "comedic" movie from the 1950s? 'Nuff said. And even the best joke ever is somewhat less awesome on the twentieth telling, let alone the hundredth. So just try humour that you find funny, and keep it fresh (multiple responses, different jokes that no one has thought of before, the unexpected, break the rules, be audacious, etc.).
To Baron,
I respectfully disagree with some of the things you've said.
Quoteso what was written at one point in a book might not still be funny. Have you ever watched a "comedic" movie from the 1950s? 'Nuff said.
Hmm, 'Some like it hot (1959)', 'The Seven year Itch (1955)','The Lavender Hill Mob (1951)','The Man in the White Suit (1951)','Hobson's Choice (1954)' and 'The Quiet Man (1952)'. I could go on, even films from the 30s can still be funny 'Duck Soup (1933)' for example. Don't want to start a war, just a difference of opinion.
QuoteAnd even the best joke ever is somewhat less awesome on the twentieth telling, let alone the hundredth
Ever seen a performance from Monty Python Live? The audience are chanting the jokes, that many have seen countless times. Watch their 'Live at the Hollywood Bowl' performance.
I am being a little unfair, Ive given examples that are classics, and Ive yet to see anyone match Monty Python. There are counterpoints to any argument.
I agree with keeping it fresh and unexpected.
Someone (I cant remember offhand who) once said 'Funny is whatever makes you laugh'.
Quote'Funny is whatever makes you laugh'.
I agree with that Dadalus... (http://www.adventuregamestudio.co.uk/forums/Smileys/AGS/smiley16_nodding.gif)
AS much as I love Life of Brian, the Holy Grail and The meaning of life, I can't say the same about Flying Circus... don't know why, but always thought they were "forced jokes", instead of something more natural and flow.
If you never watched "My Hero" (english show), give it a try (keep it to the first couple seasons, as the last ones were crap). we can't but not laugh out loud over here, and I've seen those episodes countless times. :) I think the humor just flows, the jokes come one after the other, most of the time unexpected... and even if you expect the "punch line", it still works. ;)
Personally, I rather watch intelligent humor, as "stupid/forced" humor just annoys me.
My first MAGS game Summer Woes (http://www.adventuregamestudio.co.uk/site/games/game/1723/) didn't had any visual gags. It only relied on the spoken jokes. This approach was a hit or miss, I must say. For some people found the game funny and had some good laughs while others were disappointed by the type of humour.
On a funny note: If I understand it correct, Cassiebsg will never like my game. :-D
I think that we can all agree that humor is subjective. Lets put that part of the discussion to one side.
My concern is with the integration of humor into adventure games, and getting the balance right (regardless of whether the jokes are funny or not). I think we can all think of adventure games, films, books and other narrative genres where the jokes get in the way.
My point is this, who are you writing the game for? For yourself, well I would argue that whilst there is a great deal of enjoyment in the creative process, can you really play a game you've created and enjoy it in the same way you enjoy other games? It would be like having the mother of all walkthroughs In your head at all times. Jokes wouldn't have the same effect on their creator as on someone hearing/reading them for the first time.
Whilst many have said 'make a game that you find funny' thats not who I am aiming to entertain. I think a better line would be 'make a game that you and your audience find funny'.
That brings me back to my original post. Getting the balance right. Some good suggestions I've had are, replaying games that I've enjoyed in the past (Trapezoid), timing humor (Mandle), setting the tone (Baron) and tzachs thoughts on testing a game with a select group. That and Adeel S. Ahmed sharing his experience of the reaction to a game he made are the type of thing I'm looking for.
I'm no expert and I'm more that willing to listen to others thoughts on this aspect of adventure game creation. We are never going to agree on the various styles of humor, so I would encourage you to limit comments on style, and rather think about the application of humor, when and where to place it for example.
Perhaps a separate thread in 'General Discussion' for what styles people like would be in order.
These are just my thoughts, and Ive gotten something from every post in this thread. Just wanted to refocus the discussion.
Quote from: Dadalus on Thu 14/08/2014 19:52:08
Hmm, 'Some like it hot (1959)', 'The Seven year Itch (1955)','The Lavender Hill Mob (1951)','The Man in the White Suit (1951)','Hobson's Choice (1954)' and 'The Quiet Man (1952)'. I could go on, even films from the 30s can still be funny 'Duck Soup (1933)' for example. Don't want to start a war, just a difference of opinion.
I've just spent an hour looking up clips of these movies on You Tube, and I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree. For me these movies, or at least what I could find of them, were about as funny as the two week old celery in my fridge. (roll) I always assumed that people of that era just found different things funny, but maybe it's just me who's out of touch.... :-\
Quote from: Dadalus on Thu 14/08/2014 19:52:08
Someone (I cant remember offhand who) once said 'Funny is whatever makes you laugh'.
That was me.
Good line Mandle.
As for Baron, my advice is this:
Buy a small evening suit, perhaps employ the service of a tailor to make the appropriate adjustments. Place said celery into the evening suit, then sit back as it mops up on the stand-up circuit. You will make a fortune. :)
Each to his own, I for instance enjoy early seasons of 'Family Guy' and 'the Simpsons' but I also love watching Laurel & Hardy, Harold Lloyd, Charlie Chaplin, The Marx Brothers and Buster Keaton as well as Carry On Films & Python, which probably means I am out of touch :)
Now the manic slapstick of the early 20th century, that's funny! ;-D They just don't put the energy into comedy that they used to.... (roll)
Personally, I can't really remember ever laughing-out-loud while playing an adventure game. Perhaps others do. I was never one who laughed at Warner Brothers cartoons either, and I was always bemused by the laughter of others. ...and that might be the word that I'd use to describe my feelings toward what I would consider a comedy adventure game: bemused. Or at the very least, a feeling between amused and bemused -- a sort of "wry amusement."
My definition of a "comedy adventure game" is one that is lighthearted and fun. Using this as a description, I think just about all of the LucasArts adventure games, excluding perhaps The Dig, were what I would call comedy-adventures. They were a combination of quips and visual humor with comedic puzzle solving that is unique the genre. For instance, I can't see myself laughing at a movie where the protagonist is forced to use an item in a unique way to solve a puzzle, but the same scenario may have been the "funniest part" of an adventure game. In this way, I think it's hard to make comparisons with other forms of comedy.
However, going the scripts of a few of my favorite comedy movies, I think The Naked Gun's dialog would work well in an adventure game. Consider these quotes as adventure game dialog:
Frank: Hey! The missing evidence in the Kelner case! My God, he really was innocent!
Ed: He went to the chair two years ago, Frank.
Frank: Well, uh...
[Frank Drebin quickly shoves the evidence back into the file cabinet]
Jane: Would you like a nightcap?
Frank: No, thank you, I don't wear them.
Ludwig: So they were able to get him to the hospital in time?
Frank: Yes, he's in the intensive care ward at Our Lady of the Worthless Miracle.
As a point of comparison: My family and I watch and laugh at National Lampoon's Christmas Vacation every year, but I don't think any of that humor would really work well in an adventure game. Is it because it's based on too many human factors? Personality? Subtle facial expressions? Or is it too scripted? I don't know. But thank you for the opportunity to think about it a bit...
Frank: I understand congratulations are in order for your wife's pregnancy.
Ed: Thanks Frank, and if I find the man that did it!
I still love to watch Mr. Bean, and he doesn't really say anything.
I love to see game makers come up with ways to make me laugh, without any dialog. To me, this might be the best way to reach more of an audience.
the Gobliiins games are probably the closest I can think of to silent comedy, from the classic adventure era.
I've recently come to the conclusion that I should make the games I want to make, not what other people want. Have fun with your project, and hopefully that will show through in your work. You're never going to satisfy everyone.
Quote from: Adeel S. Ahmed on Fri 15/08/2014 09:07:10
My first MAGS game Summer Woes (http://www.adventuregamestudio.co.uk/site/games/game/1723/) didn't had any visual gags. It only relied on the spoken jokes. This approach was a hit or miss, I must say. For some people found the game funny and had some good laughs while others were disappointed by the type of humour.
If you remember Adeel, I did actually draw some cool sprites that never made it into the game due to time constraints. ;)
Quote from: Retro Wolf on Sun 17/08/2014 22:17:35
Quote from: Adeel S. Ahmed on Fri 15/08/2014 09:07:10
My first MAGS game Summer Woes (http://www.adventuregamestudio.co.uk/site/games/game/1723/) didn't had any visual gags. It only relied on the spoken jokes. This approach was a hit or miss, I must say. For some people found the game funny and had some good laughs while others were disappointed by the type of humour.
If you remember Adeel, I did actually draw some cool sprites that never made it into the game due to time constraints. ;)
I know. It's a shame that we couldn't implement them into the game. That's why I started talking about Deluxe version in the first place, my friend! :=
Quote from: Snarky on Sun 17/08/2014 18:04:00
Quote from: TheBitPriest on Sun 17/08/2014 10:36:45
Personally, I can't really remember ever laughing-out-loud while playing an adventure game. Perhaps others do. I was never one who laughed at Warner Brothers cartoons either, and I was always bemused by the laughter of others. ...and that might be the word that I'd use to describe my feelings toward what I would consider a comedy adventure game: bemused. Or at the very least, a feeling between amused and bemused -- a sort of "wry amusement."
No, it's not the word. "Bemused" means puzzled, confused, not "wryly amused". (https://www.ahdictionary.com/word/search.html?q=bemused)
:) Well, I guess we'll just have to let the writers of dictionaries duke it out. Definition three on your link and the one below, given without survey results, describe my feeling well. I did intentionally use the word to mean confusion before using to mean "wryly amused."
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/bemused (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/bemused)
To please Snarky by being clear: I'm "wryly amused" by most comedy adventure games. Comedy is subjective. Maybe others laugh.
I was thinking of this topic while watching Jim Gaffigan this afternoon. I laughed-out-loud at his comedy in a way that I have never laughed playing an adventure game. The humor was almost completely based on timing and delivery. Thanks to the glories of the Internet, there's a script for comparison:
Cause we all know better right. We've all read the article, seen those documentaries. It's the same message. Look McDonald's is really bad for you. It's very high in fat and calories and we don't even know where the meat comes from. And we're like, that's disgusting. I'll have a Big Mac, a large fry, and a two gallon drum of diet coke. Cause there is a McDonald's denial, we all embrace it. No one is going in there innocent, or walking into a red and yellow building with a giant M over it, what is this, a library? I'll get some fries while I'm here. Because those McDonald's fries are truly amazing, right.I'm not even laughing at it. In a classic adventure game, I think this personality-based humor would be much more difficult to execute.
The only problem I have with what you said, BitPriest, is that you don't laugh at Loony Tunes! Man, I'm 31 and some of them cartoons are nearly 100 years old but I still laugh harder at those than almost any current sitcom. The state of sitcoms today, especially in America is absolutely dire. So much money is being given to some terrible terrible actors for just making a few references to Star Wars every other line. It makes me cry more than laugh. I'm now shaking with anger just thinking about it.
But cartoons are, by definition, very visual, and most adventure games that describe themselves as 'comedy' are essentially playable cartoons. By that thinking, they must rely on visual jokes as much as dialogue. But this requires a lot of animations, which I don't think the average hobbyist dev has time for. So that's why most AGS games rely on trying to be funny through dialogue and item descriptions, which can feel a bit forced.
There are other ways of being visually funny without buckets of animation, though. For example, funny road names or shop signs or an awkward silence. Or you can even use humour to disguise, or even play up the fact that you haven't got the resources to animate something: a well timed fade-to-black, some comic book 'thwack!' or 'zzzap!', a 'two hours later' card for something that should have taken two minutes. Those are all funny devices, a bit cliche perhaps but if used well then I think they can add to any comedy game. I'm sure there are plenty more we could think of.
Quote from: Stupot+ on Mon 18/08/2014 02:58:10
The only problem I have with what you said, BitPriest, is that you don't laugh at Loony Tunes! Man, I'm 31 and some of them cartoons are nearly 100 years old but I still laugh harder at those than almost any current sitcom. The state of sitcoms today, especially in America is absolutely dire. So much money is being given to some terrible terrible actors for just making a few references to Star Wars every other line. It makes me cry more than laugh. I'm now shaking with anger just thinking about it.
(laugh) True enough.
On Loony Tunes: Maybe I saw them too often? I liked
Animaniacs. It wasn't intrinsically different. At the same time, I do
appreciate the classic cartoons, especially Tom and Jerry. :) But that's just it... comedy is subjective, eh?
Quote from: Stupot+ on Mon 18/08/2014 02:58:10
Or you can even use humour to disguise, or even play up the fact that you haven't got the resources to animate something: a well timed fade-to-black, some comic book 'thwack!' or 'zzzap!', a 'two hours later' card for something that should have taken two minutes. Those are all funny devices, a bit cliche perhaps but if used well then I think they can add to any comedy game. I'm sure there are plenty more we could think of.
Absolutely! I know of a soon-to-be-released AGS game that employs all such devices! :-D
Good points. This has been a great exercise... Thanks, Dadalus.
Wow, it seems like replies to posts are a bit like buses...
I think what we are talking about in the last few posts is
delivery.
TheBitPriest quoted Jim Gaffigan by way of example. I
read it and thought 'well thats not particularly funny'. Then I
watched it ( for those interested watch it here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6YDTfEhChgw).) The delivery made it laugh out loud funny.
Think of text messaging, I am sure we have all experienced times when a message you've sent to someone has been misunderstood. With the written word it can be difficult to get the delivery right, especially those of us not gifted in creative writing. Words that sound good in your head somehow magically transform into unintelligible dribble, which the causes a massive argument with your wife (or 'life partner','girlfriend','boyfriend','gimp' etc).
When writing adventure games we are not just stuck with the written word. We have a tools to include voice acting, animation and music which greatly enhance the delivery of humor. Although we may not have the time, resources or talent, to include them.
Stupot+ makes a good point :
QuoteThere are other ways of being visually funny without buckets of animation, though. For example, funny road names or shop signs or an awkward silence. Or you can even use humour to disguise, or even play up the fact that you haven't got the resources to animate something: a well timed fade-to-black, some comic book 'thwack!' or 'zzzap!', a 'two hours later' card for something that should have taken two minutes. Those are all funny devices, a bit cliche perhaps but if used well then I think they can add to any comedy game. I'm sure there are plenty more we could think of.
Its how something is delivered that can make the difference, even if we don't have the time/skill/resources.
My point is this, we should be devoting a little of our time in the creative process to thinking 'how can I best deliver/present this gag/joke/line using the resources I have available?'.
How are we going to do that? Well there is one resource that you have proven time and time again to possess. You are all creative people!
Create!
Some games, including my GIP make liberal use of the ... device in AGS dialogue which results in a short pause. A little pause after a gag can do wonders, just to let the joke sink in and give the player a best to appreciate the gag before the conversation continues. It's kind of a not-so-direct version of the character actually turning and winking at the camera. Although you could do that too I guess.
I played some game recently (forget which) which really abused that pause, and it was tiresome getting through dialog. Beware.
Quote from: Trapezoid on Tue 19/08/2014 05:16:06
I played some game recently (forget which) which really abused that pause, and it was tiresome getting through dialog. Beware.
That game would be:
Summer Woes. :-[
My personal view on using the 'pause' would be that its a bit like you as the game designer are saying "look its a joke NOW LAUGH"..."LAUGH"..."DAMN YOU LAUGH". If its used to represent surprise or speechlessness I think thats OK as long as its not overused.
I am very impatient with some games, so like I said its just my personal reaction.