Jokes in Adventure Games (getting the balance right)

[Cassiebsg]

'Funny is whatever makes you laugh'.

I agree with that Dadalus...

AS much as I love Life of Brian, the Holy Grail and The meaning of life, I can't say the same about Flying Circus... don't know why, but always thought they were "forced jokes", instead of something more natural and flow.

If you never watched "My Hero" (english show), give it a try (keep it to the first couple seasons, as the last ones were crap). we can't but not laugh out loud over here, and I've seen those episodes countless times. I think the humor just flows, the jokes come one after the other, most of the time unexpected... and even if you expect the "punch line", it still works.

Personally, I rather watch intelligent humor, as "stupid/forced" humor just annoys me.

[Adeel]

My first MAGS game Summer Woes didn't had any visual gags. It only relied on the spoken jokes. This approach was a hit or miss, I must say. For some people found the game funny and had some good laughs while others were disappointed by the type of humour.

On a funny note: If I understand it correct, Cassiebsg will never like my game.

[Dadalus]

I think that we can all agree that humor is subjective. Lets put that part of the discussion to one side.

My concern is with the integration of humor into adventure games, and getting the balance right (regardless of whether the jokes are funny or not). I think we can all think of adventure games, films, books and other narrative genres where the jokes get in the way.

My point is this, who are you writing the game for? For yourself, well I would argue that whilst there is a great deal of enjoyment in the creative process, can you really play a game you've created and enjoy it in the same way you enjoy other games? It would be like having the mother of all walkthroughs In your head at all times. Jokes wouldn't have the same effect on their creator as on someone hearing/reading them for the first time.

Whilst many have said 'make a game that you find funny' thats not who I am aiming to entertain. I think a better line would be 'make a game that you and your audience find funny'.

That brings me back to my original post. Getting the balance right. Some good suggestions I've had are, replaying games that I've enjoyed in the past (Trapezoid), timing humor (Mandle), setting the tone (Baron) and tzachs thoughts on testing a game with a select group. That and Adeel S. Ahmed sharing his experience of the reaction to a game he made are the type of thing I'm looking for.

I'm no expert and I'm more that willing to listen to others thoughts on this aspect of adventure game creation. We are never going to agree on the various styles of humor, so I would encourage you to limit comments on style, and rather think about the application of humor, when and where to place it for example.

Perhaps a separate thread in 'General Discussion' for what styles people like would be in order.

These are just my thoughts, and Ive gotten something from every post in this thread. Just wanted to refocus the discussion.

[Baron]

Hmm, 'Some like it hot (1959)', 'The Seven year Itch (1955)','The Lavender Hill Mob (1951)','The Man in the White Suit (1951)','Hobson's Choice (1954)' and 'The Quiet Man (1952)'. I could go on, even films from the 30s can still be funny 'Duck Soup (1933)' for example. Don't want to start a war, just a difference of opinion.

I've just spent an hour looking up clips of these movies on You Tube, and I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree.  For me these movies, or at least what I could find of them, were about as funny as the two week old celery in my fridge.   I always assumed that people of that era just found different things funny, but maybe it's just me who's out of touch.... 

[Mandle]

Someone (I cant remember offhand who) once said 'Funny is whatever makes you laugh'.

That was me.

[Dadalus]

Good line Mandle.

As for Baron, my advice is this:

Buy a small evening suit, perhaps employ the service of a tailor to make the appropriate adjustments. Place said celery into the evening suit, then sit back as it mops up on the stand-up circuit. You will make a fortune.

Each to his own, I for instance enjoy early seasons of 'Family Guy' and 'the Simpsons' but I also love watching Laurel & Hardy, Harold Lloyd, Charlie Chaplin, The Marx Brothers and Buster Keaton as well as Carry On Films & Python, which probably means I am out of touch

[Baron]

Now the manic slapstick of the early 20th century, that's funny!    They just don't put the energy into comedy that they used to....

[TheBitPriest]

Personally, I can't really remember ever laughing-out-loud while playing an adventure game.  Perhaps others do.  I was never one who laughed at Warner Brothers cartoons either, and I was always bemused by the laughter of others.  ...and that might be the word that I'd use to describe my feelings toward what I would consider a comedy adventure game: bemused. Or at the very least, a feeling between amused and bemused -- a sort of "wry amusement." 

My definition of a "comedy adventure game" is one that is lighthearted and fun.  Using this as a description, I think just about all of the LucasArts adventure games, excluding perhaps The Dig, were what I would call comedy-adventures.  They were a combination of quips and visual humor with comedic puzzle solving that is unique the genre.  For instance, I can't see myself laughing at a movie where the protagonist is forced to use an item in a unique way to solve a puzzle, but the same scenario may have been the "funniest part" of an adventure game.  In this way, I think it's hard to make comparisons with other forms of comedy. 

However, going the scripts of a few of my favorite comedy movies, I think The Naked Gun's dialog would work well in an adventure game. Consider these quotes as adventure game dialog:

Frank: Hey! The missing evidence in the Kelner case! My God, he really was innocent!
Ed: He went to the chair two years ago, Frank.
Frank: Well, uh...
[Frank Drebin quickly shoves the evidence back into the file cabinet]

Jane: Would you like a nightcap?
Frank: No, thank you, I don't wear them.

Ludwig: So they were able to get him to the hospital in time?
Frank: Yes, he's in the intensive care ward at Our Lady of the Worthless Miracle.

As a point of comparison:  My family and I watch and laugh at National Lampoon's Christmas Vacation every year, but I don't think any of that humor would really work well in an adventure game.  Is it because it's based on too many human factors?  Personality?  Subtle facial expressions?  Or is it too scripted?  I don't know.  But thank you for the opportunity to think about it a bit...

[Slasher]

Frank: I understand congratulations are in order for your wife's pregnancy.
Ed: Thanks Frank, and if I find the man that did it!

[NickyNyce]

I still love to watch Mr. Bean, and he doesn't really say anything.

I love to see game makers come up with ways to make me laugh, without any dialog. To me, this might be the best way to reach more of an audience.

[Trapezoid]

the Gobliiins games are probably the closest I can think of to silent comedy, from the classic adventure era.

[Retro Wolf]

I've recently come to the conclusion that I should make the games I want to make, not what other people want. Have fun with your project, and hopefully that will show through in your work. You're never going to satisfy everyone.

My first MAGS game Summer Woes didn't had any visual gags. It only relied on the spoken jokes. This approach was a hit or miss, I must say. For some people found the game funny and had some good laughs while others were disappointed by the type of humour.

If you remember Adeel, I did actually draw some cool sprites that never made it into the game due to time constraints.

[Adeel]

My first MAGS game Summer Woes didn't had any visual gags. It only relied on the spoken jokes. This approach was a hit or miss, I must say. For some people found the game funny and had some good laughs while others were disappointed by the type of humour.

If you remember Adeel, I did actually draw some cool sprites that never made it into the game due to time constraints.

I know. It's a shame that we couldn't implement them into the game. That's why I started talking about Deluxe version in the first place, my friend!

[TheBitPriest]

Personally, I can't really remember ever laughing-out-loud while playing an adventure game.  Perhaps others do.  I was never one who laughed at Warner Brothers cartoons either, and I was always bemused by the laughter of others.  ...and that might be the word that I'd use to describe my feelings toward what I would consider a comedy adventure game: bemused. Or at the very least, a feeling between amused and bemused -- a sort of "wry amusement."

No, it's not the word. "Bemused" means puzzled, confused, not "wryly amused".

  Well, I guess we'll just have to let the writers of dictionaries duke it out.  Definition three on your link and the one below, given without survey results, describe my feeling well.  I did intentionally use the word to mean confusion before using to mean "wryly amused." 

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/bemused

To please Snarky by being clear:  I'm "wryly amused" by most comedy adventure games.  Comedy is subjective. Maybe others laugh.

I was thinking of this topic while watching Jim Gaffigan this afternoon.  I laughed-out-loud at his comedy in a way that I have never laughed playing an adventure game.  The humor was almost completely based on timing and delivery. Thanks to the glories of the Internet, there's a script for comparison:

Cause we all know better right. We've all read the article, seen those documentaries. It's the same message. Look McDonald's is really bad for you. It's very high in fat and calories and we don't even know where the meat comes from. And we're like, that's disgusting. I'll have a Big Mac, a large fry, and a two gallon drum of diet coke. Cause there is a McDonald's denial, we all embrace it. No one is going in there innocent, or walking into a red and yellow building with a giant M over it, what is this, a library? I'll get some fries while I'm here. Because those McDonald's fries are truly amazing, right.

I'm not even laughing at it.  In a classic adventure game, I think this personality-based humor would be much more difficult to execute.

[Stupot]

The only problem I have with what you said, BitPriest, is that you don't laugh at Loony Tunes! Man, I'm 31 and some of them cartoons are nearly 100 years old but I still laugh harder at those than almost any current sitcom. The state of sitcoms today, especially in America is absolutely dire. So much money is being given to some terrible terrible actors for just making a few references to Star Wars every other line. It makes me cry more than laugh. I'm now shaking with anger just thinking about it.

But cartoons are, by definition, very visual, and most adventure games that describe themselves as 'comedy' are essentially playable cartoons.  By that thinking, they must rely on visual jokes as much as dialogue.  But this requires a lot of animations, which I don't think the average hobbyist dev has time for. So that's why most AGS games rely on trying to be funny through dialogue and item descriptions, which can feel a bit forced.

There are other ways of being visually funny without buckets of animation, though. For example, funny road names or shop signs or an awkward silence. Or you can even use humour to disguise, or even play up the fact that you haven't got the resources to animate something: a well timed fade-to-black, some comic book 'thwack!' or 'zzzap!', a 'two hours later' card for something that should have taken two minutes. Those are all funny devices, a bit cliche perhaps but if used well then I think they can add to any comedy game. I'm sure there are plenty more we could think of.

[TheBitPriest]

The only problem I have with what you said, BitPriest, is that you don't laugh at Loony Tunes! Man, I'm 31 and some of them cartoons are nearly 100 years old but I still laugh harder at those than almost any current sitcom. The state of sitcoms today, especially in America is absolutely dire. So much money is being given to some terrible terrible actors for just making a few references to Star Wars every other line. It makes me cry more than laugh. I'm now shaking with anger just thinking about it.

True enough. 

On Loony Tunes: Maybe I saw them too often?  I liked Animaniacs.  It wasn't intrinsically different.  At the same time, I do appreciate the classic cartoons, especially Tom and Jerry.    But that's just it... comedy is subjective, eh?

[TheBitPriest]

Or you can even use humour to disguise, or even play up the fact that you haven't got the resources to animate something: a well timed fade-to-black, some comic book 'thwack!' or 'zzzap!', a 'two hours later' card for something that should have taken two minutes. Those are all funny devices, a bit cliche perhaps but if used well then I think they can add to any comedy game. I'm sure there are plenty more we could think of.

Absolutely!  I know of a soon-to-be-released AGS game that employs all such devices! 

Good points.   This has been a great exercise... Thanks, Dadalus.

[Dadalus]

Wow, it seems like replies to posts are a bit like buses...

I think what we are talking about in the last few posts is delivery.

TheBitPriest quoted Jim Gaffigan by way of example. I read it and thought 'well thats not particularly funny'. Then I watched it ( for those interested watch it here.) The delivery made it laugh out loud funny.

Think of text messaging, I am sure we have all experienced times when a message you've sent to someone has been misunderstood. With the written word it can be difficult to get the delivery right, especially those of us not gifted in creative writing. Words that sound good in your head somehow magically transform into unintelligible dribble, which the causes a massive argument with your wife (or 'life partner','girlfriend','boyfriend','gimp' etc).

When writing adventure games we are not just stuck with the written word. We have a tools to include voice acting, animation and music which greatly enhance the delivery of humor. Although we may not have the time, resources or talent, to include them.

Stupot+ makes a good point :

There are other ways of being visually funny without buckets of animation, though. For example, funny road names or shop signs or an awkward silence. Or you can even use humour to disguise, or even play up the fact that you haven't got the resources to animate something: a well timed fade-to-black, some comic book 'thwack!' or 'zzzap!', a 'two hours later' card for something that should have taken two minutes. Those are all funny devices, a bit cliche perhaps but if used well then I think they can add to any comedy game. I'm sure there are plenty more we could think of.

Its how something is delivered that can make the difference, even if we don't have the time/skill/resources.

My point is this, we should be devoting a little of our time in the creative process to thinking 'how can I best deliver/present this gag/joke/line using the resources I have available?'.

How are we going to do that? Well there is one resource that you have proven time and time again to possess. You are all creative people!

Create!

[Stupot]

Some games, including my GIP make liberal use of the ... device in AGS dialogue which results in a short pause. A little pause after a gag can do wonders, just to let the joke sink in and give the player a best to appreciate the gag before the conversation continues.  It's kind of a not-so-direct version of the character actually turning and winking at the camera. Although you could do that too I guess.

[Trapezoid]

I played some game recently (forget which) which really abused that pause, and it was tiresome getting through dialog. Beware.