KQ9 is no more

[Darth Mandarb]

If a company YOU own makes a successful series of games and then an outsider comes in and makes an unofficial sequel, your beloved series will always be associated with that from then on. It was THEIR series of games (despite being handed over) and they had every right to do what they did.

I completely understand what you're saying but I look at it this way:

Lack o' Vision ... er ... Activision, doesn't have anything to do with King's Quest other than acquiring the company that acquired the company that was bought out by the company that made the game(s) 15-25 years ago.  They ("they" is used loosely here) haven't released a KQ game since 1995 (I don't count VIII).  If they were smart (which they appear not to be) they would bless this fan project that would/could/might rekindle some interest in products they have collecting dust.

I would like to think, though I find it highly unlikely, that maybe (just maybe) they have some top-secret KQ project in the works which they are afraid this fan project might interfere with.  Were I a betting man, though, I'd not put even a penny on such a wager.

Seems more like they are holding on to some antiquated idea of how to run a business that is not valid in the modern world.  Granted since they are fighting a battle for a franchise that has been dead for 15 years I suppose it makes sense they would stick to a corporate mentality from that long ago as well.

[Dave Gilbert]

Lack o' Vision ... er ... Activision, doesn't have anything to do with King's Quest other than acquiring the company that acquired the company that was bought out by the company that made the game(s) 15-25 years ago.  They ("they" is used loosely here) haven't released a KQ game since 1995 (I don't count VIII).  If they were smart (which they appear not to be) they would bless this fan project that would/could/might rekindle some interest in products they have collecting dust.

While it's easy to discount this whole thing as corporate mentality/stupidity, Activision isn't stupid.  They've managed to surge ahead during a year where most of their contemporaries have gone out of business.  So give them some credit.  Let's play devil's advocate for a minute and see it from their point of view.

Sure, they haven't done anything with the King's Quest IP since they aquired it... but who's to say they won't do it some day?  And if they ever do, they will want to do everything in their marketing power to associate the name "King's Quest" with Activision (or Sierra) and not some freeware company.  By letting fan projects live now, it could potentially hurt them in the future.

I know that this is a verrry hypothetical (and unlikely) scenerio, but a company stays alive by thinking into the future and planning for every eventuality.  I'm sure they looked at this situation from every angle to determine if it can hurt them in any way, however small. 

I have nothing but sympathy for the TSL team and I can't imagine what they must be going through, but I can understand why Activision did it.

[Shane 'ProgZmax' Stevens]

 I can only wonder if the cynical responses would be the same were Fountain of Youth to get a visit from the Lucasarts lawyers -- or is m0ds somehow different because he is a member of these forums and a friend to some here?  Seems to be a lot of negativity regarding the KQ9 team, anyway.


The only real criticism I can level at any author of a fangame is that they are making a fangame.  Their idea may be magically delicious but at the end of the day they can take none of those characters and call them their own or rightfully sell their game or even make it donationware to profit in any way other than a pat on the back from some players and bile from others who didn't think the writing or story was 'true' to the source.

I'm not a fan of King's Quest but I can only imagine how much the KQ9 team loves the series to have spent 8 years trying to complete something.  That's real dedication so I have some sympathy for any frustration they might be feeling.

[Snarky]

Back when it seemed like the big adventure game series were dead forever, I'd say the companies were spoilsports, "what's the harm?" etc.

But the recent revival of the Monkey Island franchise after almost 10 years in limbo, and the rise of new game platforms that offer a new market for ports and remakes of old adventure games, must surely give pause to companies that had written off their back catalog.

So I do see Activision's side of this. And in a way, the more ambitious a fan game is, the more it threatens the company's control over the brand's image. If TSL came out, it seems like it would be hard to ever release an official KQ9.

[Mr Flibble]

I just noticed that the petition was put up on a site where you need to register in order to sign it.

Wow.

[LimpingFish]

I can only wonder if the cynical responses would be the same were Fountain of Youth to get a visit from the Lucasarts lawyers -- or is m0ds somehow different because he is a member of these forums and a friend to some here?  Seems to be a lot of negativity regarding the KQ9 team, anyway.

I think it's just that there are some unanswered questions, or vague rumors, about the position of the TLS team in this situation. Where they interested in "official" status? Did they approach Activision with this idea of going legit (or possibly commercial)? And if so, did they bring on this C+D themselves? There's a lot of talk about negotiations and things that you wouldn't usually associate with a fan project. Was it a fan project, or did they just figure the more effort they put into it the more likely it was that they'd get paid for it in the end? Maybe the delays in releasing it were down to it's creators feeling that they didn't want to give it away for free any more.

Either way, I'd be interested in some clear answers.

But let's put a period here. Approaching a "faceless" commercial organization looking for some sort of validation on a project that infringes on a property they own is a bad idea. Nine times out of ten you'll be rejected, and to take that gamble so late into a project's lifetime is silly and reckless. You've just nailed your own coffin shut. Stay under the radar until your game is finished and out there, and then consider any ramifications.

If you feel you must get some sort of approval before releasing a continuation of somebody else's work, then why not approach the original creator (in this case Roberta Williams) and ask if it's cool to do so. They might still say no, but you probably won't find yourself on the end of a legally binding C+D.

The Fountain of Youth is likely still alive because it hasn't been dropping it's pants in the LucasArts foyer. Personally, I think it's a colossal waste of time and talent, regardless of end quality, as it could be C+D'd whenever the mood happens to take George.

It's Russian roulette, but with five chambers filled.

[Captain Ricco]

Sad news, indeed! It reminds me of Crimson Echoes, last year: another fangame that was weeks away from its full release.

It would be like if Lucas had somehow lost the rights to Star Wars in the middle of filming the prequel movies. Sure, he could probably have rewritten the story and made it not be about Obi-Wan and Anakin and Palpatine and Luke & Leia's mom, but what would be the point?

Ironically, Star Wars was made precisely because George Lucas wanted to tell a Flash Gordon story that he didn't have the rights for.

Also, the appraised Watchmen was supposed to be starred by Regular DC characters

[Radiant]

How'd the guys from the "Quest For Glory 4.5" game get away with it? That game had lots of questionable content, and if there was ever a target for a C&D order they would be an understandable target.

No, the real question is what happened to King's Quest: Breast Intentions

A couple of months later another amateur group decided they wanted to make a 5th instalment. Bear in mind there would be no financial gain for either of us, I still said no to them. The reason being it was MY series of films and I made them how I wanted.

The main difference is this: since you are the author, you have both the moral right and the legal right to do that. Since Activision is not the author (that would be Ken and Roberta), they still have the legal right, but whether they have the moral right is up to debate. Not that their lawyers would care.

[GarageGothic]

Activision DO seem somewhat premenstrual at the moment. Anybody following what they're doing to Infinity Ward, the team that just produced Modern Warfare 2 for them, only the title with the biggest launch revenue in entertainment history?

Edit: For those of you who can't be bothered to follow the link, I think Tim Schafer's comment on the Infinity Ward story can equally be applied to this TSL business:

Getting mad at Activision for this kind of thing is like getting mad at an ape for throwing feces. It's just how the beast communicates.

[Mr Flibble]

Activision, managing to piss off retro gamers and modern gamers simultaneously. That's 100% of gamers. Nice.

[xenogia]

It would be nice if gamers deliberately boycotted Activision.  But you know they own Blizzard and there are two many WoW addicts.   I read an article just this morning on Kotaku that states 68% of their annual revenue comes from WoW, Guitar Hero and COD alone.. Haha,  I guess that is why they are just going to keep churning out sequels.

[cocomonk22]

Activision is also the company that sued Double Fine to stop the release of Brutal Legend, among other things I can't remember right now.

If this doesn't work out, hopefully one of the beta testers would be willing to share their latest build with other potential beta testers such as myself.

[Erpy]

I think it's just that there are some unanswered questions, or vague rumors, about the position of the TLS team in this situation. Where they interested in "official" status? Did they approach Activision with this idea of going legit (or possibly commercial)? And if so, did they bring on this C+D themselves? There's a lot of talk about negotiations and things that you wouldn't usually associate with a fan project. Was it a fan project, or did they just figure the more effort they put into it the more likely it was that they'd get paid for it in the end? Maybe the delays in releasing it were down to it's creators feeling that they didn't want to give it away for free any more.

Either way, I'd be interested in some clear answers.

Were they interested in "official status"? Yep, but Vivendi took preemptive action and approached THEM instead. The fan license they got stated they could continue, but the IP holder (VU at the time, Activision after the merger) had to review the project before it was allowed to be released and if there was any content in there that the IP holder deemed shoddy or inappropriate that would have to be changed.

So the reason they contacted Activision was simply because they were contractually obliged to...releasing the game without approval would have gotten them sued for contract breach. They really had no choice in this. The negotiations spoken of were most likely the team trying to convince Activision to adopt it as a commercial endeavour instead of shutting it down. Which apparantly didn't work out.

The question of whether it was still a fan project or an attempt to become a commercial franchise...that's kinda 50/50. It's a fangame, but the director definitely planned to approach VU at some point and try to get it adopted as the definite conclusion of the series, rather than just another chapter...it was specifically written to tie up all loose ends the other games left hanging. They were hoping the first chapters would become a critical success and they'd have numbers to convince VU/AV there was an audience worthy of investing in, hence the team's focus on branding and promotion. Also, it turned out the initial screenplay was just way too large to be completed without funding. The game that was about to be released was the first 25% of the entire concept and the team mentioned the other chapters could only be finished in a timely fashion if they could rely on more than just volunteer work.

Did they bring the C&D upon themselves? No. VU told them 5 years ago that it was either cooperation or shutdown and when they got the first part of the project to the point where it was acceptable to submit, the new IP holder turned out to be both very unsupportive of fan efforts and very uninterested in providing the team with a commercial license.

[LimpingFish]

Did they bring the C&D upon themselves? No. VU told them 5 years ago that it was either cooperation or shutdown and when they got the first part of the project to the point where it was acceptable to submit, the new IP holder turned out to be both very unsupportive of fan efforts and very uninterested in providing the team with a commercial license.

It's a mess; something that snowballed and became a legal nightmare.

On the one hand, this was just a fan game (or rather, it began life as a fan game), and as such should really have died at the first C+D, regardless of quality. Harsh, but that's the risk you take when you set out to make a fan game; how much time and effort you plan to devote to it is irrelevant. The Vivendi deal (which, as we know, came after the C+D; Vivendi's initial approach was simply to shut them down) seemed to end up a poisoned chalice. Not only have they lost the ability to release the game, and even keep the TSL forums, but everything they worked on effectively belongs to Activision.

Like I said before, to enter into a project of this magnitude (or to let it get to such a level) without foreseeing the possibility of having the rug pulled out from under you, and being able to say "fine" and walk away from it, is crazy. They should have let it go five years ago. It may have been easier to alter the games content at that point. It's certainly too late now.

I think this is why we might be seeing a lack of sympathy, aside from appreciating the loss of ten years worth of work.

Despite what people want, King's Quest, and everything related to it, is held under copyright. If you don't own it, you have no right to it. Everything else is just pissing into the wind.

EDIT: Or you do what's been suggested, and tell no one about what you're doing and just release the damn thing when it's finished.

[blueskirt]

Thanks for clearing that up.

I can't really blame the TSL team anymore. The project started during an earlier, more simple time, there was that Lost Chapter Space Quest fangame, King's Quest 1 VGA and hundreds of never to be released fangames and remakes projects in the wild, and you thought there would be no legal problems if you made your own fangame too, it's only several years later when Square shut down Chrono Resurrection and companies became aware of the fangames phenomenon that we finally wised up, by that time, it was too late for TSL to go underground and they got sucked in that legal nightmare.

May it be a lesson to current and future fangames makers: Make an homage or simply go underground.

[Erpy]

On the one hand, this was just a fan game (or rather, it began life as a fan game), and as such should really have died at the first C+D, regardless of quality. Harsh, but that's the risk you take when you set out to make a fan game; how much time and effort you plan to devote to it is irrelevant. The Vivendi deal (which, as we know, came after the C+D; Vivendi's initial approach was simply to shut them down) seemed to end up a poisoned chalice. Not only have they lost the ability to release the game, and even keep the TSL forums, but everything they worked on effectively belongs to Activision.

Like I said before, to enter into a project of this magnitude (or to let it get to such a level) without foreseeing the possibility of having the rug pulled out from under you, and being able to say "fine" and walk away from it, is crazy. They should have let it go five years ago. It may have been easier to alter the games content at that point. It's certainly too late now.

I find it a bit difficult to agree that it should have kicked the bucket 5 years ago, simply due to the fact AGDI got a similar agreement a year before that and when the time came to submit QFG2VGA, the whole thing went relatively smoothly and instead of a C&D we got some praise from the reviewing rep who turned out to be an avid gamer herself. The deal was never a guarantee to get the project out the door, but simply another chance to do so and I think most people, even when faced with the decision between 0% and 2% chance of getting their work released will still pick the option that has the most favorable odds. If the team had finished the first chapters sooner, before the merger or had VU Games merged with a company less rigid in their views of IP laws, the thing would have been a non-issue.

In the end, if there was one thing that was probably the project's most glaring Achilles heel (if it can even be called that), it was the ambition of the team's directive staff. Changing things or going underground was never an option, not now, not 7 years ago. After AGDI got licensed (behind the scenes) and about a year before TSL's C&D, I had an IM session with their project director where I informed him of our experiences with VU and the fact we learned that A) VU knew about them and B) VU didn't consider the project a case of fair use. I mentioned it would be a very good idea to keep the KQ elements to an absolute minimum in case VU came knocking. It turned out that at that point already, the game was specifically written to be a closing chapter to the series and removing the KQ elements would cause the whole thing to fall to pieces. Going underground would go against their vision on the direction of the project, since they were hoping to turn the project official at some point or another after the release of the first part and thus it was important to get as many downloads as possible, something that would be severely hampered by keeping an extremely low public profile.

I guess that's the tragedy of the situation...the whole dream of going big with the game, the vision that pervaded the entire project, stood or fell with the assumption the IP holder (be it VU, Activision or anyone else) would be interested and open to negotiation. Had that been the case, the project would have had the unique honor of a fan project turning into a professional commercial franchise. A big gamble that ended up backfiring, it seems at this point.

[Snarky]

So it sounds like the team deliberately put Activision in a position where the company had three choices:

1) Fund the development of an 8-years-in-the-making, fan-made sequel to a series that ended 12 years ago, with completely outdated graphics.
2) Be stuck with a semi-official first chapter only of a game meant to conclude the series; itself without closure--making it that much more complicated to ever make another King's Quest title.
3) Shut them down.

No wonder Activision made the decision they did. Sure, it would have been decent of them to stand by the deal made with Vivendi, but hardly in their interest, it seems.

At the same time, I can't agree with LimpingFish's dismissal of the whole effort. I don't agree with a lot of their tactics, but the team had ambition, I'll give them that, and the determination and talent to come close to their goal. Maybe their hubris led to their eventual failure, where a more modest project might have succeeded, but that doesn't mean it wasn't worth a try, or that they should have given up at the first setback. Hell, it's their eight years of effort, not ours.

[Erpy]

So it sounds like the team deliberately put Activision in a position where the company had three choices:

1) Fund the development of an 8-years-in-the-making, fan-made sequel to a series that ended 12 years ago, with completely outdated graphics.
2) Be stuck with a semi-official first chapter only of a game meant to conclude the series; itself without closure--making it that much more complicated to ever make another King's Quest title.
3) Shut them down.

No wonder Activision made the decision they did. Sure, it would have been decent of them to stand by the deal made with Vivendi, but hardly in their interest, it seems.

I think you pretty much nailed it, except for option 1...the game's project director got a job at Telltale Games a little while back and I think that instead of asking Activision itself to fund the project, they would have tried to have Telltale do the rest of the episodes with Activision getting a license fee. It would have made more sense than trying to work directly under Activision who had a pretty sordid reputation concerning their interest in non-mainstream IP.

Option 2 was probably a factor...the project was written to be the series' grand finale and tie all loose ends up, but if only the first two chapters had remained produced, it ironically would have created more loose ends than it tied up. Making the production of another sequel by Activision (or another studio they licensed) difficult without TSL's writing staff involved.

At the same time, I can't agree with LimpingFish's dismissal of the whole effort. I don't agree with a lot of their tactics, but the team had ambition, I'll give them that, and the determination and talent to come close to their goal. Maybe their hubris led to their eventual failure, where a more modest project might have succeeded, but that doesn't mean it wasn't worth a try, or that they should have given up at the first setback. Hell, it's their eight years of effort, not ours.

I agree.

[LimpingFish]

I might have come across a little blunt in my earlier post. My point was that once the copyright holder became involved, legal complications were unavoidable. The one basic tenant of fan game development should be that you're knowingly infringing on someone else's copyright and that most corporations see this as a BAD thing. Hopefully your game will be out there before any C+D action (a fair amount of fan projects do manage this), but once you're on their radar before your project is out, you now face the possibility of an outcome you have little power to influence.

With Vivendi's first C+D, the logical choice, in my opinion, would have been to remove the offending material, and rework the game into an original project. As I said earlier, there's no law against creating an homage to something. King's Quest's fairytale-esque world is by no means so unique that to strip it of the basic King's Quest trappings would render it null. It's just unfortunate that the team's work was so tied in to the series' cannon. I know this was the whole point of the project, but as I said earlier, when you're faced with only two options - shut down, or rework - it's good to have a back-up plan. To cultivate this tenuous legal arrangement, with the later complication of using it as a launch pad for a commercial endeavor, just strikes me as one step too far in the life of a fan game.

Granted, AGDI were successful, but as you say, it was a different set of circumstances. And plain luck probably played a factor. I'd go so far as to say it was the exception that proved the rule, rather than setting a precedent.

The project director getting a job at Telltale is an interesting ending, as it creates the impression that the last decade has been running backwards.

In an ideal world, he would have gotten a job with the studio first, rose through the ranks, approached the studio head with the idea of obtaining the licensing rights to a defunct series of adventure games, did so, developed the game, and published it. Job done.

But this isn't an ideal world, and there were too many hiccups in the development life of the TSL saga for me to fully blame Activision (however insanely draconian they may be in general) on it's demise.

EDIT: I agree with Snarky, though, on one point. To turn a love for a game into a project that would rival most commercial adventures is an achievement we rarely witness. The talent behind TSL was never in question. But some of their later goals were likely a factor in their undoing.

[karacho]

It would be nice if gamers deliberately boycotted Activision. 

I am sure many do.
Before i go on i have to say: I am no Kings Quest Fan, and didnt even know about the project until those horrible news went by.
Reading those news just made me rage.
I mean yeah, gamers buy hype games and franchises go down all the way and the whole industry is making mistakes that are very ugly. Thats money making and most of it is the gamers fault, it is sad, but what can you do?
Then there are always those law-wars between companies, again money is power and they are fighing about everything they can. Alos sad, cant do anythign about it.

But killing of a dedicated project fans did to support a franchise just because ... because of nothing, really there is no reason behind killing of the work of 8 years of fans. Imagine Star Trek would go like that.

That just crossed a line. Activision is officially not just moneymaking, they are evil. I mean, really, there was no reason to do that kind of move. I read those news and posted a thread on every forum i am active. I dont know if that helps, but i made sure many people know whats happening. Most people agree, a good part of them is really angry at activision and said they wont buy again from them (including me).

Enough is enough, i will never again by a product that generates money for Activision.
Everybody that buys from them ever again can say in ten years "You know the time where there existed other games than five Call of Dutys a year? Yeah i was one of those guys that still bought products from Activision to shape the future we have now"

I can not get angry at people that just want to play a game they waited for or something. But think about it, do you want that? Do you really want to give money to people that act like they are the bad guys of a completely shallow actionmovie?

I still hope in between counting their money and laughing maniacally about how cool it is to behave like James Bond villians those Activision guys read forums and rethink what they just did.