Looking for AGS team

[LGM]

Well said

[Migs]

Well said

I disagree.  His point was that AGS_guy is young while he and others are older.  "So I've proved my point a thousand fold," snorts Davis.  "Ho ho."  In reality, he proves nothing, only brings forth a few grains of evidence to make his case and assumes total victory.  His grossest error is that he appeals to seniority, which is a logical flaw.  If AGS_guy truly has the skills to create a masterful game, with all the "mature" nuances Davis mentions, he should be able to do so.  However, AGS_guy has yet to demonstrate this, and I feel it's rather safe to conclude AGS_guy is lacking in aforementioned skills.

The real problem, as I see it, is that AGS_guy presumes to seize leadership in an area where he has no prior experience.  This problem has already been stated, and I believe it's at the heart of this whole question of AGS_guy's legal claim to team leadership.  Leaders typically don't jump to the top without stepping on a few rungs of the proverbial leadership ladder.

[MrColossal]

I believe what Davis was doing with the whole proving his point a thousand fold is making a joke.

he wasn't saying because he's older he's better [he actually made fun of us older people more than younger people] he was saying that an older person doesn't usually just go off and listen to the first thing a 14 year old says. An older person remembers being 14 and remembers how crazy life is [or how crazy we choose to perceive it to be, as in Davis' post] and thinks "No thank you."

[I should just wait for davis to post, he doesn't need me defending him]

[Davis]

His grossest error is that he appeals to seniority, which is a logical flaw.  If AGS_guy truly has the skills to create a masterful game, with all the "mature" nuances Davis mentions, he should be able to do so.  However, AGS_guy has yet to demonstrate this, and I feel it's rather safe to conclude AGS_guy is lacking in aforementioned skills.

Skills earned with years and years of being able to drink. And I apologize if I came off as sounding that I was trying to propose a class system based on age. It should be based on skill, me, high at the top, and everyone else at the bottom.

The real problem, as I see it, is that AGS_guy presumes to seize leadership in an area where he has no prior experience.  This problem has already been stated, and I believe it's at the heart of this whole question of AGS_guy's legal claim to team leadership.  Leaders typically don't jump to the top without stepping on a few rungs of the proverbial leadership ladder.

I hope you can tell that I was joking in that previous paragraph, btw. I agree with you one hundred percent. Instead of using the word age, perhaps I should have used experience. He doesn't come off as a influential leader, but that's not a character attack, he just seems, "young at heart." I don't pretend to say that at each birthday they hand you a package full of the next year's maturity level, and each 365 days is a guaranteed rise in mental age. God knows some of my very best friends must have missed their, like, last 12 packages if that were the case.

But I do feel, generally, there is this thing called aging, and as you do it, you mellow out and mature a bit. I mean, from what I understand a scientist or two supports this theory.

edit----
Also, I apologize I forgot to quote Eric as being correct, I tried to very much make fun of myself, and many of the senior AGSers, and I in no way think if someone is young they are dumb. I just feel, a young person, 14 or 15, or 16 or 17 or 18, cannot walk into a job in the real world and demand a salary and a company car and a pension and this and that. ESPECIALLY having no background in that field, and no appointment with anyone, simply barging in past the secratary.

[Layabout]

Yay for Davis.

I agree totally with what you say.

They don't give out the top jobs to a person with little or no experience in a field, so why should AGS_guy beg for it here. It's like people asking for the source code of ags, believing it's their RIGHT. If I had a dollar for every team recruit thread, i'd be very well off.

[Kinoko]

All true... yes, very true. *puffs on a pipe*

I think even advertising for a team is essentially the wrong way to go about it. I think a seasoned professional should have made enough contacts to perhaps have people in mind for the jobs he wants in his project and can then ask them personally. I know that's how the best team projects I've done have worked. I've thought, "I need someone to do this... oh, so-and-so does this sort of thing very well! I very much want to work with so-and-so" and then history is made from there.

It's also completely true about experience. I get asked to do commissions of art from various people and I tell you, some people are so ambitious and yet so, so clueless. You can tell the people that have their shit together right from the start, whether they're companies or just individuals - they know what they're doing and you don't have to hold their hand and explain things the whole way through.

[Migs]

I just feel, a young person, 14 or 15, or 16 or 17 or 18, cannot walk into a job in the real world and demand a salary and a company car and a pension and this and that. ESPECIALLY having no background in that field, and no appointment with anyone, simply barging in past the secratary.

Quite true.  Quite true.  In our unique culture where "real world" maturity doesn't happen until relatively late, it is, perhaps, wise to adopt a cautionary standpoint when dealing with these juveniles.  There have been some instances of adolescents making their mark in the business world, such as founding successful software development companies or telemarketing companies and so on, but such instances are significantly rare.  AGS_guy has not yet demonstrated he is such a prodigy child.

All true... yes, very true. *puffs on a pipe*

I think even advertising for a team is essentially the wrong way to go about it. I think a seasoned professional should have made enough contacts to perhaps have people in mind for the jobs he wants in his project and can then ask them personally. I know that's how the best team projects I've done have worked. I've thought, "I need someone to do this... oh, so-and-so does this sort of thing very well! I very much want to work with so-and-so" and then history is made from there.

Perhaps.  Perhaps.  However, as far as I know, none of us are professionals in the game development industry, but your reasoning is fairly sound.  It's all about the people you know.  I feel AGS_guy may be trying to preempt the natural order.

It's also completely true about experience. I get asked to do commissions of art from various people and I tell you, some peopole are so ambitious and yet so, so clueless. You can tell the people that have their shit together right from the start, whether their companies or just individuals - they know what they're doing and you don't have to hold their hand and explain things the whole way through.

Indeed.  Indeed.  I, too, have had highly unreasonable employers who didn't have a clue about how complicated my job was.  For example, one former boss wanted me to create a complicated database to keep track of some conventions she was organizing, complete with attending retailers, classes being offered, booths being assigned, and more.  And then she got upset when I didn't have it finished by the end of the day, and I can't even begin to mention how much important information she left out when we went through the usual question-and-answer phase.

[..]

BTW,

I wasn't Joking, I still wouldnt mind being a writer person or whatever it was, just PM me...

[jetxl]

I am not going to join that team.

Wow!!!
It looks like farlander and I have the same oppinion this time!
(IMO)

[Nacho]

A fist step to a mutual undesrtanding? Probably, why not?  

[LGM]

I do disagree with one thing Davis said..

I'm a bag boy, yes.. But it is a hard and honest job. Maybe I don't work 5 days a week, but I do work 8 hour shifts.. and usually those last till midnight.

So yea..

[Kweepa]

Aside from the fact that this is one of the filter questions when you join the forums, I see no problem with AGS_guy posting here.
If someone, having read AGS_guy's post, decides that what they really need is for AGS_guy to organise them and then take credit for their work, who are we to get in the way?
In other words, a simple repeat of the "make a simple game first to attract people" advice, then let the thread die, should be enough.

[shbaz]

I do disagree with one thing Davis said..

I'm a bag boy, yes.. But it is a hard and honest job. Maybe I don't work 5 days a week, but I do work 8 hour shifts.. and usually those last till midnight.

So yea..

I wasn't a bag boy, but a cook, in a super-hot kitchen where I was standing the entire time and I had one 15 minute break. Then I went to work in a more "adult" job, at a factory.  At the factory I stood or walked the entire shift, carried between 35-70 pounds consistently, and had one 20 minute break for lunch in my 8 hour shift, also mostly in very high temperatures.

I think what Davis is getting at is that you THINK you have it hard, until you do what your father had to do.. (figuratively speaking, of course)

One thing people don't understand about being a teenager that REALLY is hard though is when you work 20 or more hours a week while attending school. Not only is this like working two jobs, but you catch crap from your parents for having grades that are dropping when you really can't help it. Some people in my school had parents who were making them hand over some of their cash as well as pay for their own car, gas, and insurance.. not really nice.

[DanClarke]

Christ the lad was only looking for some people to help him out, there's no need to go so in depth about it. As for the age thing, i think it's a little patronising, and you also said he's shown us nothing, yet youre quick to dismiss the idea of working with somebody younger. If i took an interest in his project, and i if i wasnt so busy with my own game, id more than happily help him out.

[Farsight]

Come on.....
I am working on my game all the time and yet I still have time to help out with others games.
PS. I got the script writer job.

[Rui 'Trovatore' Pires]

Christ the lad was only looking for some people to help him out, there's no need to go so in depth about it.

The sheer amount of threads like this tend to make people VERY wary. I was a victim of this myself, but hey, I look on the bright side - I got a good artist elsewhere!

As for the age thing...

...this is all very controversial, and I'm only 18 myself, but believe me, Davis stated it in the best way possible. People tend to get wary of someone who waltzs right in and asks for a team, out of the blue, especially when that someone is very young. Until people can see his work, it's very likely he'll get no help at all, except from nice, charitable folk like yourself.   (don't take offense, k? Just joking around, I do this a lot).

[Farsight]

Come on.....
I am working on my game all the time and yet I still have time to help out with others games.
PS. I got the plot designer job.
PPS. I am only twelve

[Mats Berglinn]

DanClarke: Bravo! Bravo! (claps my hands) Couldn't say it better myself.

You know what, I didn't think of that AGS-guy just gather a team so he does nothing and the others do the job, no sir-ee! I think you all who is against AGS-guy should be ashamed of yourself or Murray will haunt you for the rest of your lives until you burn in Inferno! Ok, I just overreacted but I still think that you could have been a lot less harsch against this guy.

think it's a little patronising

Don't you actually mean "generalising"?

[DanClarke]

i understand what you're saying redrum, but im saying it's unfair just to dismiss him, and i dont think age is much of a factor. People talking about things young people's humour, if he's asking for script writers then i'm sure he's open to suggestions on that side of things.

I'm only 19 myself, but i wouldn't expect there to be questioning over my age. I think some people have a problem as far as taking orders from people goes, especially when they're younger than themselves. I dont think of it as working under somebody, more helping them out.

I'd love to help but i really want to concentrate on my game(s) for now, especially as they're my first and i want to make a good impression  

[Rui 'Trovatore' Pires]

You completely right there - age is never a fair base on which to dismiss someone out of hand. Thing is, until the person in question SHOWS that he(she)'s not to be dismissed, everyone will. It's sad, and I don't like it either, but it's a fact of life. That's why these threads are NEVER sucessfull.