On Main Characters

Kinoko · Mon 13/03/2006 01:57:24

ARGH!!! I just wrote a big post and it was lost. Fuck. Fuckitty fuck.

Okay, I'll do my best to sum it up.

Admittedly, RPGs have in general been going downhill for a long time, and I was talking about those previous games mainly in the context of the time they were released, but without a doubt they are still my favourite games ever and I play them constantly even these days. I don't play that many RPGs these days unless they have "Harvest Moon" in the title. I'm playing one called Iron Feather right now which is very, very pretty, but a little lacking storywise. I recently bought Children of Mana but have yet to even take it out of the plastic wrapping, and I've heard it's a dungeon trawler that doesn't live up to the orignal SNEs Secret of Mana.

I just want to point anyone who's interested in the direction of this article written about FFIV by Tim Rogers: http://www.insertcredit.com/features/ffdog/ffiv/ffivindex.html
It pretty much sums up my feelings on the game.

There are still plenty of awesome RPGs being released that either take things in a new direction or just do the old thing really well. Skies of Arcadia is a VERY excellent game and Vince will back me up on -that- one. I hope. I would be thrilled if more RPGs were like that.

Also take into account that a lot of decent RPGs don't get released in the west. Also, I play a lot of games in Japanese and there are often things that get cut from the story or messed up in translation, and these can have a significant effect on the coolness factor of a game. ALSO take into account that a lot of RPGs are so into taking things in a new direction that you probably just don't think of them when you think of RPGs, so of course the stereotypical ones are what you're thinking of, and of course they're just getting more and more stereotypical as time goes on.

As further examples off the top of my head, noone should discount the -excellent- RPGs that have been coming out of the Mario franchise. Paper Mario 1 and 2 are both AMAZING games are easily in my top ten. Mario and Luigi RPG is also a great game. Again, I bought the sequel and again I haven't played it yet, but the original was a very very good game with some very unique approaches to gameplay and plot and yet still followed in the traditional style of RPGs.

I'll also mention that I haven't played a FF game since 6. They all look like utter shit to me. BUT I must say that I7m beginning to get interested in the latest one. They have promo movies of it playing in all the convenience stores here and it looks and sounds pretty damn impressive.

Also, I haven't played any of them but I've never heard a bad word about Kingdom Hearts 1 and 2, which when I first heard about it, sounded like the most spastic, ridiculous, insane, stupid ideas for game ever. Now I find myself wanting to get back to Aust. where I have access to playstations so I can find out for myself. Most of the people who have been telling me how good it is are the kinds of people who don't even play RPGs normally, and would ordinarilly be making fun of the game just like I did. They were all beaten into submission by it's ... fun-ness, apparently. I can't help but be interested now. That and for a couple of weeks there, you couldn't go anywhere in Japan without hearing the theme song it was associated with, which was pretty catchy, though I have no idea if it has that song associated with it in the US/European releases.

EDIT: Oh! Silly me. And of course, Giftpia is one of the greatest games ALL time. A very unique RPG with a fantastic atmosphere.

EDIT: And this is really off-topic, I don't even know why I'm saying this... you've all just got me mushy thinking about why I love these games so much. As one example, in Breath of Fire II, there are really sort of two girls that you can imagine you're chasing as the main character; Katt and Nina. I chose Katt because she was one of the best characters I'd ever happened across in a game up to that point. Anyway, there's this one scene where another NPC has the hots for Katt, and Katt panics and runs behind you [main character]. The NPC, Tigaa (Tiger? Can't remember the spelling) gets the idea that you two are a couple and proposes that he will fight you for her. You're given the opportunity at this stage to say, "Oh heck no, we're just friends. Have her." or "We are more than friends, you stay the heck away from her" (in a nutshell).

If you choose the former, the story continues on as normal and Katt goes on to try and convince Tiger she isn't in love with him on her own. If you choose to fight him, you er, fight him. Now, there's NO way to beat him. It's not written into the script, he has unlimited HP. But I tried SO GOD-DAMNED HARD to kick that son of a bitch' ass. I would reload my game every time I died, go off and level, have another go at it... "Maybe he has like, 99,999 HP or something" I would tell myself. In the end, I would concede defeat and the story would continue on the same path.

Now, I could say that it was cruel of the programmers to put that little path in, especially with the added frustration of an unbeatable fight. You could say that there was no point, and technically, there wasn't. Katt didn't warm up to you anymore because of your efforts to win her heart.

But for me, it made a huge difference. It made me feel really, really cool that they had at least acknowledged that some players would want the player character to end up with Katt, and it made me feel so cool that I at least had that chance to fight for her, regardless of the result. From then on, I felt that the little sprite of Katt DID acknowledge my little player sprite had fought for her, and that there was a spark. It wasn't there in the code, but it was there in my head as I played the game.

This isn't an example of, "Do you want to do this?" "Are you Sure?" "Are you sure?" x 100... but it was the tiniest little thing that made such a difference to my overall impression of the game. I've even considered hacking the game and inventiny my own ending to that fight where you can beat Tigaa. I know there are hundreds of BoFII fans out there that went through the same thing as me, according to all the threads I've ever read asking desperately if there's a way to defeat him.

There were many moments during that game that I cried too. The one that -always- gets me going everytime is when Rand's mother sacrifices herself (getting squished between two blocks of stone) in front of his eyes. I don't care if the game has a cliched plot, everything in it meant a lot to me and has shaped the way I think about games and storylines in general.

It's about those tiny, tiny little things, for me. Not the overall storyline.

As far as FFIV goes, the couple I was really interested in was Rydia and Edge. There were these tiny, nothing moments of programming added in where Rydia would go over to Edge... look to the side, look back. GOD, there was so much emotion wrapped up in those tiny commands. They made the game for me.

In summary, this is probably what role-playing game means to me. The programmers giving you even a tiny opportunity to imagine your own little bits of story. If I had no interest in Edge and Rydia for example, there was no need to pay any attention to those little things. If I did, and I did, I could make a mountain out of them, which I did.

As one more tedious example, in Terranigma, there's a scene where you are on a ship with upper-world Elle, just having saved her from some ghosts. She's been a cold bitch to you so far, but I used to stand my character next to her and make them watch the sea a little together. I'm that much of a nerd, but the story left itself open enough that I could do that and make it apart of -my- story, the story I wanted the game to have, and it didn't feel silly at all. Not like those times I would get my character in Secret of Mana to constantly walk into the "sexy" green haired girl NPCs and make it look like they were having sex. That was silly. ^_^

Adamski · Mon 13/03/2006 02:13:46

If we're going to talk about story-driven RPGs then we're going to talk about Planescape: Torment, which is pretty much is completely unbeatable in terms of depth, breadth and quality of writing (and has a pretty great main character too).

Unfortunatly it's 2 am and I'm generally lazy, so I'll expand upon this in the morning!

Kinoko · Mon 13/03/2006 02:26:32

Wow, I've never even heard of it but if it's as good as all that... what system was it on?

Adamski · Mon 13/03/2006 02:36:13

It's a PC game, no idea how difficult it is to get hold of these days though.

http://www.mobygames.com/game/planescape-torment

Try not to read too many reviews and especially not the Wikipedia article, which completely gives away the story.

xenogia · Mon 13/03/2006 03:31:31

The only good RPG Squaresoft made and it is one of my favourite all time games, and they have beaten it ever is Xenogears. There was an unofficial sequel called Xenosaga which was decent but didn't really live up to its pre-decessor.

You may notice my alias which is Xenogia and has been that for a very long time.

Helm · Mon 13/03/2006 04:20:56

QuoteIf you choose the former, the story continues on as normal and Katt goes on to try and convince Tiger she isn't in love with him on her own. If you choose to fight him, you er, fight him. Now, there's NO way to beat him. It's not written into the script, he has unlimited HP. But I tried SO GOD-DAMNED HARD to kick that son of a bitch' ass. I would reload my game every time I died, go off and level, have another go at it... "Maybe he has like, 99,999 HP or something" I would tell myself. In the end, I would concede defeat and the story would continue on the same path.

Now, I could say that it was cruel of the programmers to put that little path in, especially with the added frustration of an unbeatable fight. You could say that there was no point, and technically, there wasn't. Katt didn't warm up to you anymore because of your efforts to win her heart.

Sure, this is exactly a great example of awful game design.

Kinoko · Mon 13/03/2006 04:30:37

It's fine game design. The problem is that you're not receptive to it, you're not the sort of person these games are designed for.

It created passion inside me for the game. A game shouldn't just give you what you want, it should tease you sometimes. A good game is like good sex with a temptress, not a prostitute who does what you tell her to do ^_^

xenogia · Mon 13/03/2006 04:34:30

I definetly agree with Kinoko on RPG games and their elements.

Desmond · Mon 13/03/2006 04:42:25

Clearly, bringing up console games was the kiss of death.... lesson learned.

Surely there are adventure games whose protagonist/player character is not well defined at all... being an Access fan, I'd contrast Jason (Amazon) to Tex Murphy (all of his games), where Jason has no personality at all, and Tex has it in spades.

Another game with an uncharacterized protagonist could be Deja Vu, and a lot of the old text adventures (Deadline?). I think I mentioned Prodigal from the get-go, whose player character is a blank canvas.

I'm wondering how you think these character decisions affect the narrative, not in a sense of "good story" or "bad story," because that's a matter of opinion, but in terms of how the games play out, exposition, the kinds of things that the player can be expected to do, etc.

Kinoko · Mon 13/03/2006 04:45:00

Ah, if we're bringing up text adventures, I think the black avatar character is especially good. I particularly liked the freedom in Leather Goddesses of Phobos. Not only could you choose the sex of your character, but you could choose how dirty they were.

Helm · Mon 13/03/2006 04:51:12

Quote from: Kinoko on Mon 13/03/2006 04:30:37
It's fine game design.

No, no it's not. Not in anyone's book if they're sane.

QuoteThe problem is that you're not receptive to it, you're not the sort of person these games are designed for.

I agree I'm not cut out for jrpgs, I was when I was 12 and didn't know better/had enough time for them and an overactive imagination. I'm honest enough to admit these games, as many hours as they took from me in my youth, are NOT good games. It's one thing to add to the games yourself because you're young and bored, or teenaged and lonely, and another thing to proclaim the games good because you did this. A game of connect 4 with a friend can become the most epic battle if you two are bored enough and feel like blowing it up.

Your whore/temptress analogy is flawed because in your example it's not that you were teased and eventually you got what you were to get, it's that you were teased and eventually got fuck all. When women do this to me I punch them in the face.

xenogia · Mon 13/03/2006 04:53:23

I made a design ethic in my Illusion of Murder series of games, where my characters personality and attitude changes and develops through each game. At the start of the game he is new to crime solving and is niave and too polite with people but as the game progresses on he becomes a bit more hard-boiled and arrogant due to people not helping him.

QuoteYour whore/temptress analogy is flawed because in your example it's not that you were teased and eventually you got what you were to get, it's that you were teased and eventually got fuck all. When women do this to me I punch them in the face.

Say this to yourself - "Calm blue ocean, calm blue ocean" .. j/k

Kinoko · Mon 13/03/2006 05:02:58

Ah poor poor Helm, you can't appreciate the beauty that is simply having emotion and excitement without a big prize at the end of it.

To be honest, the number of games I love that are still sitting around either on apartment or on my computer, saved right before the end, is staggering. I often have so much playing the game that once I can see it's gonna end, that's when my interest wanes. I can live without the ending sometimes, as long as I had fun on the journey. Mario and Luigi RPG is one of those games... still haven't finished it but I'm totally satisfied from playing most of it.

I recommend that blue ocean thing too. ^_^

EDIT: My argument against that being "bad" game design is that it does what it was intended to do for the people intended to enjoy it. Just because it's not your thing, doesn't make it wrong. It's right for me. I wouldn't presume to tell an FPS player what makes a good FPS game because I don't really enjoy them and I hardly ever play them. The fans of something should be the ultimate judge of something. If there are no fans... then you've got problems.

xenogia · Mon 13/03/2006 05:13:37

All games are designed for a specific audience, and if one person doesn't like it, this doesn't make a bad genre.

QuoteI recommend that blue ocean thing too. ^_^

Do you mean Star Ocean Kinoko? They are good games if a bit cliched, but still very good especially number 2

Kinoko · Mon 13/03/2006 05:17:09

I meant your calm blue ocean advice

Helm · Mon 13/03/2006 05:18:29

One, you half-jokingly suggest I am emotionless when it comes to games. I am not and I don't think there's any point to defend such a thing in detail. It's just rude of you to suggest this, as if there can be no other reasons I am not enjoying fake choices in games.

Two, you interpret my position to mean that I enjoy the result of a game and not the process of it. The whole point in that sense, was that when a game makes promises about what it offers, like oh, say, branching path gameplay (do you want to help me? YES/NO <- suggests there's different paths, the extent of which can be scrutinized and discussed later, from Blade Runner multipath to FoA 3 paths to whatever. There's something the to discuss, not just a FAKE CHOICE) I will appreciate it on how much it delivers on what it boasts, not what thinly-veiled illusions are presented. This is not an extreme position. If the game says '50 hours of completely linear gameplay, where choices are fake and all the key elements are cliche'ed to death' then YES, if you say what I just described is a 'genre', then if I bought that and complained, you'd be right in saying that a non-fan should not criticize. But as I said, I like rpgs, and deny that horrid thing I described are it. I've been roleplaying probably before you had your first copy of windows and I do appreciate the genre for what it can offer. It's not that I am not a fan of the whole genre, it's that I have opinions as to what is a good example of it. So check your angle of 'lol if you don't like rpgs, why talk about them?'

Yes, in the end as long as people buy final fantasy games, more will come out. I am commenting on how sad the situation is that people ARE buying these games and think them good and do not know any better.

xenogia · Mon 13/03/2006 05:30:32

The Star Ocean series doesn't have fake choices, and a lot of yes/no choices actually change the ending of the final game. There are over twenty different endings in them which means there is a lot of replay value in them. I personally don't like Square Enix games, but a lot of other companies excellent games like Atlus, Working Designs and the smaller companies. I find Square Enix to be the Microsoft of the RPG world

Kinoko · Mon 13/03/2006 05:33:11

And I agree with you on games that are terribly like what you described. But in the end, if a game has an element like that, I don't think's necessarilly a bad thing. As long as they manage to make the game fun, job well done as far as I'm concerned. I think that is the best judge of good game design.

A game that has those yes/no options, promised more, did not pull off the 'enjoyment' thing... sure, that sucks.

I'm guilty of using that line myself a lot, but I think we should be careful when saying, "people who don't know any better". I think you could make the argument that sometimes knowing the general school of game design can ruin something that would otherwise be enjoyable.

And for the record, I was role playing long before I had my first copy of windows too. I don't even understand what that's supposed to mean.

The Inquisitive Stranger · Mon 13/03/2006 05:35:36

What is good game design, anyway? Who has the right to define good game design?

Kinoko · Mon 13/03/2006 05:37:53

In theory, I agree.

I think practically we can all agree there are certain rules that should be generally followed. I just don't believe breaking those rules is necessaily a bad thing. It can sometimes be a very good thing.