The most disappointing endings!

Tom S. Fox · Sat 09/12/2006 23:45:10

Well, for starters:
I had the feeling, all the loose end get tied up in a rather cheap way.
I mean, can you explain me why Flux turned back to normal, when Drew shot him with the evilator (or whatever this thing is called in english)?
Furthermore, I don't know, you didn't really accomplish anything.

Spoiler

You try to get back home all the game long.
Finally there, you fail having a creative idea the boss likes.
A little later, you learn that Fluffy and Count what's-his-name are still alive and you get sucked back into the cartoon world.

[close]

Rui 'Trovatore' Pires · Sat 09/12/2006 23:51:39

Why flux turned normal? Well, it makes sense, doesn't it? Hit him with the cutifier and he became sickeningly cute; hit him with the malevolator and he became normal, cancelling the cutifier. If you malevolated him again, he'd become evil.

As for the rest, I disagree that you didn't accomplish anything - and I disagree because I just played Night of the Hermit. Until then I had no idea of what it was like not to accomplish anything.

Spoiler

You tried to get back home, and you succeeded. You had a great idea for a new show. Unfortunately, the boss didn't like it. Even more unfortunately, the injection from Nefarious will put you back into toonland. But Drew isn't unhappy - he's even smiling and laughing a bit. Nothing's changed? It has. Drew has given his best shot at pleasing the people in this world. No one gave a damn about his best. He went back to a land where he'll probably be useful and happy.

[close]

Tom S. Fox · Sun 10/12/2006 00:08:19

Quote from: Rui "Trovatore" Pires on Sat 09/12/2006 23:51:39
Why flux turned normal? Well, it makes sense, doesn't it? Hit him with the cutifier and he became sickeningly cute; hit him with the malevolator and he became normal, cancelling the cutifier. If you malevolated him again, he'd become evil.

Well, I guess, it would make sense on some level, but why doesn't malevolating any other cute toon turn them into a crazy toon?
I mean yes, those toons have always been cute.
But why would it make a difference?
I think this cancelling out thing is just a cop-out.

Quote from: Rui "Trovatore" Pires on Sat 09/12/2006 23:51:39
Spoiler
You tried to get back home, and you succeeded.
[close]

Spoiler

Yeah, for five minutes! Great succes!
However, he's probably happier in the toonworld but I think, that's a happy end not quite related to the plot.

[close]

Well, that's my opinion.
If have another one, fine.
BUT YOUR OPINION IS WRONG! HAHAHAHA!

Rui 'Trovatore' Pires · Sun 10/12/2006 00:17:27

Yeah, those toons have always been cute, but when you start modifying it you play upon their natural essence.

Think of it like every toon starting of with 0. The cutifier adds +10 to their cuteness. The malevolator adds -10. And they have a limit of +10 or -10 either way. Always seemed logic to me.

Quotethink, that's a happy end not quite related to the plot.

QuoteYOUR OPINION IS WRONG!

Well, sure, if you want to disavow the possibility of actual story development it can be quite an unacceptable ending. I suppose you prefer predictable ones?

Tom S. Fox · Sun 10/12/2006 00:36:36

Quote from: Rui "Trovatore" Pires on Sun 10/12/2006 00:17:27
Yeah, those toons have always been cute, but when you start modifying it you play upon their natural essence.

Think of it like every toon starting of with 0. The cutifier adds +10 to their cuteness. The malevolator adds -10. And they have a limit of +10 or -10 either way. Always seemed logic to me.

Alright, Dr. RPG...
That would mean, they are cute despite having a 0 in cuteness.
And now let's cut this nonsense!

Quote from: Rui "Trovatore" Pires on Sun 10/12/2006 00:17:27
Quotethink, that's a happy end not quite related to the plot.
QuoteYOUR OPINION IS WRONG!

Well, sure, if you want to disavow the possibility of actual story development it can be quite an unacceptable ending. I suppose you prefer predictable ones?

No, I prefer good ones.
I don't see how another ending would disawov the possibility of actual story development.
I just want a proper ending.
According to Aristotoles is an end that which itself naturally follows some other thing, either by necessity, or as a rule, but has nothing following it.
And I don't know why you inserted my "YOUR OPINION IS WRONG!" quote.
Don't you get irony?

Rui 'Trovatore' Pires · Sun 10/12/2006 00:46:16

QuoteThat would mean, they are cute despite having a 0 in cuteness.

That was an analogy. Cutifying and malevolating is a variable applied upon a "normal" state. I would have thought that was simple enough. The fact that the normal state of Cutopians is already "cute" is beside the point. They get cuter, or they get evil.

And end which follows some natural thing? I see nothing in that ending that is not natural, I see a perfectly logical course of events. And the story itself ends - the story of how Drew wanted so desperatly to go back home... and upon going back home a changed man, found out he much preferred the new place he went to. A place where he can actually make a difference.

I inserted your quote not because I don't understand irony, but because it seemed like in this context you were trying to humoursly conceal (or reveal) the fact that you're not ready to be swayed by any argument there can be. The way you took my numerical analogy of the cutifying/malevolating process seems to confirm that. I'm all for different opinions, but if you're that closed to argumentation, then pershaps this should stop here.

Tom S. Fox · Sun 10/12/2006 01:14:39

I can be swayed by any argument there can be.
I just wanted to state that both of us has different points of view.
But you just had to continue this discussion.
Wich obviously shows, that you are the stubborn one here.
The reason I took your analogy this way is, that it just doesn't make any sense.
You can't just say cuteness of 0 is the same as cuteness +10 if the cuteness has always been 0.
And now cut the crap.

I would rather go over to another ending:
The ending of Simon the Sorcerer 3D.
It's not a bad ending.
It has, unlike StS2, a climax at the end.
I never finished StS2, though, so i can't give any opinion about that.
However, StS3D does have one of those sudden cliffhanger endings.
When will Simon's odysse finally end?!?
There is just cliffhanger after cliffhanger and the story gets crazier and crazier, and you wonder where the creators are going.
Well, I hope part 4 will reveal one thing or another.

Rui 'Trovatore' Pires · Sun 10/12/2006 01:29:17

QuoteBut you just had to continue this discussion.
Wich obviously shows, that you are the stubborn one here.

Excuse me for trying to actually understand what your point of view was and, failing to understand, conversing about it, confronting you with my opinion and actually expecting a constructive reply that would make me understand your point. Trust me, I won't make that mistake again.

This is rather off-topic now, as opposed to the previous posts (in which we discussed Toontruck's ending in an attempt to find out what made it disappointing for some and not quite so for others, always an interesting exercise), but no one can surely blame me for replying directly to a post that has insulted me and my "crap".

Tom S. Fox · Sun 10/12/2006 01:48:34

I'm sorry, but I admited that we all have our own opinion and you blamed me to be "not ready to be swayed by any argument there can be".
I don't react very friendly to this kind of talk.
And you conversated about my point in a quite disrespecting way.
Besides, I just wanted to contribute one of my disappointing endings.
And then you asked me, why I think, it's disappointed.
Then you questioned my all my points.
Wich was the point I tried to explain that it's just my opionion and you don't have to share it.
But you wouldn't let go.
(You don't seem to be ready to be swayed by arguments.)
Well, in a nutshell: I got tired of this dull conversation so I decided to end it.
However, I'm off to bed.

Rui 'Trovatore' Pires · Tue 12/12/2006 00:35:11

I've been forgetting to say this - when I finished Beyond Good and Evil, I almost loved the ending. Almost.

Spoiler

After the whole thing was done, I would really have liked to see, even if just briefly, Hillys now in peace, or something, like in American McGee's Alice when you get a final glance at a healthy Wonderland. I wanted to take a sneak peek at maybe children playing in a reconstructed lighthouse. Ah well, it's just what I'd have wanted to see, not having seen it didn't really take away from the ending. I just felt... well, disappointed is indeed the right word.

Oh, and the very last scene, where the the pig was shown to develop a Domz claw? I found that just a bit too over the top. The story was already concluded, after all, and it felt like a "Hey, let's put it in in case we ever make a sequel!" moment.

[close]

Snarky · Tue 12/12/2006 04:15:22

Quote from: Rui "Trovatore" Pires on Sat 09/12/2006 22:16:19
We can't know for sure, ayuh. IMHO, however, the "it's all a child's dream and LeChuck really is the brother and therefore a regular, normal kid" is pretty much disproven by - as has been pointed out many times over - his eyes glowing, and Elaine's last appearance. And I'm not even talking about character logic or anything like that - I'm talking about narrative. That's the classic "The-bad-guy-just-pulled-one-over-the-good-guy's-head-and-the-good-guy-didn't-even-notice" scenario. You get Guybrush as a kid, you see him behave as a kid, you see the parents, you see the brother, and just when you're going "What the F--- is going on here?!" you see a little hint, in this case Chuckie's eyes, telling you "No, you're not crazy, it's just that I - the bad guy - finally got Guybrush where he wanted, bwahahaha, etc et all".

Of course, it could be this and it could be that and I'm sure there are a million explanations, but we can't forget one very simple thing - the way stories work. It'd have to be a pretty damn unorthodox and advanced and revolutionary plotline to follow up on the "all the pirates stuff was just a dream" ending after that very simple fact - Chuckie's eyes glowed supernaturally, and he chuckled at the player as though he were saying "Ahaha, I win!". It's a classical twist-of-a-twist, that ends up putting things back the way they were (except Guybrush is now in a hell of a mess and he doesn't even know it). And as fun and interesting and -in its own way- revolutionary MI was, especially in game mechanics and puzzle design, the story it's presented so far (MI1 and 2) certainly had nothing that sophisticated in it, nothing that could possibly hint at such a thing coming later.

Mind you, I'm not saying stories have to be predictable in their structure or anything. Especially nowadays, many things are allowed, and experimentation is growing. But 2+2=4, and 2*2 is ALSO 4, and 6-2 is ALSO 4... but in the end, it's a logical equation that follows certain rules. Similarly, there's a way that stories work, and to try and see beyond that can work, sometimes... but not when there's such a clear indicator of a classic scenario. No twist is really possible at this point - Chuckie the kid is a supernatural being. Period. Thus we can assume he's still LeChuck.

It's really fun trying out for alternative meanings, but in the end there's things we can't overlook.

The ambiguous ending is just as strong a storytelling pattern as the double twist ending. The evidence you cite is not conclusive, not "a logical equation that follows certain rules".

Besides, consider that even if it was all in Guybrush's imagination, that doesn't mean it's not real (or at least as real as the "reality" he leaves it for).

Rui 'Trovatore' Pires · Tue 12/12/2006 09:19:45

QuoteThe ambiguous ending is just as strong a storytelling pattern as the double twist ending.

Ayuh, though an ambiguous ending often leaves enough evidence that fully supports both or more interpretations. It doesn't often allow for loose ends, and everyone seems to agree that Chuckie's eyes glowing is a major loose end. And ayuh, I'm sure it's not conclusive or real evidence. It's just what makes sense to me. Reading over my post it does sound a lot like I'm being a bit too "The truth is how I see it and nothing else". It's just my opinion, and I got a bit excited in laying it out because, like everyone else, there's a reason why I have that opinion and I wanted to get it out in the open.

Doesn't Ron Gilbert has an email adress? Someone pester him until he gives in or start an online petition.

blueskirt · Tue 12/12/2006 11:18:26

He has a blog, and don't worry, there's enough people over there that are begging him to continue.

But seriously I doubt more people begging him is what he's looking for. If I were him, I'd probably be waiting for a bunch of talented people interested to work on an amateur MI3, because at this rate, it's pretty obvious that he'll bring the secret of Monkey Island in his grave before LucasArts give up on the franchise, and even if they did, he would have to find a work around CMI and EMI, because a commercial MI3 would probably just please the crowd that were unsatisfied with them and possibly confuse the people if it excluded CMI and EMI.

Shane 'ProgZmax' Stevens · Tue 12/12/2006 11:25:29

I've always chosen to view the mi 2 ending as a dream that occurs from the point you break the oar and fall from the tree (seeing your parents dance) onward. To me, everything from that point onward seems to tie into a dream state. The alternative is just to be greatly annoyed as I much prefer the idea that you're a real pirate to being a dumb kid imagining everything.

lo_res_man · Tue 12/12/2006 16:50:42

But if that's true, how come you go to LeChuck castle? The character doesn't know much about it, barley even that exists, yet you go to the same places seen in the cutscenes? Cutscenes that can be seen before you bump your skull? On the plus side, I always felt MI2 to be very cinematic, and well done, and very funny.One of may fave parts is

Spoiler

when you first leave the bar kitchen through the window, and you do a flip and look all pleased with your self, then look foolish

[close]

EagerMind · Tue 12/12/2006 23:42:33

Quote from: BlueSkirt on Tue 12/12/2006 11:18:26
he would have to find a work around CMI and EMI,

Nah, just "relaunch" the series and ignore them. Like Superman Returns ignores everything after Superman 2, and Batman Begins basically ignores every other Batman movie.

Snake · Wed 13/12/2006 15:18:42

I'm a big fan of long cutscenes and big lengthy cinematic endings - the longer the better. I hate short ending that leave you high and dry.

--Snake

FamousAdventurer77 · Thu 14/12/2006 02:52:59

Quote from: Snake on Wed 13/12/2006 15:18:42
I'm a big fan of long cutscenes and big lengthy cinematic endings - the longer the better. I hate short ending that leave you high and dry.

I agree wholeheartedly. Cutscenes and big endings are hard to work on but they are SO worth it in the long run.

And as for real true MI3...who knows. Wasn't there also supposed to be a real true Space Quest 7 too?

Lucky · Sat 16/12/2006 00:56:49

Let's explain why Toonstruck's ending was so crap then. http://www.lauraj.net/portfolio/GameArt/Toonstruck/Toonstruck.htm

For clicking-impaired, it was originally supposed to be twice as long but was then cut to half. There was supposed to be a sequel, which was obviously never finished.

Wellington · Wed 20/12/2006 03:40:19

Both Broken Sword and The Smoking Mirror had pretty disappointing endings; no denouement. You get a scene showing the world being saved, but not a glimpse of the consequences - no "breather" scene, no clever banter, nothing. It's like making a game version of Raiders of the Lost Ark, and ending EXACTLY when the villains get killed. In spite of their high production values, their generally solid dialogue, and their general flair, Broken Sword and The Smoking Mirror both desperately needed a Warehouse Scene.