There will never be a perfect puzzle

[seriousquirrel]

When I was a young boy, I used to read a lot of magazines about computers. It was in the mid 80's (now I am 35) and all that technological stuff was something new to me and I have to admit, I was very excited by the whole thing. For various reasons, adventure games become my favorite game genre although in the end, I managed to play very few of them alongside with the date of the original releases. After high school, I went to college (1997), and computers were left aside. But 7 years ago, with the rise of the amazing DosBox utility and the abandon ware style, sites (and due to the huge amount of spare time I have and the "nostalgia" thing), I managed to play (and finish) a lot of classic and non classic adventure games (even some text-graphic adventures like the "Spell casting" series). Of course, I always made use of a walk through in order to solve them.  After playing hundreds of them, I came up to a conclusion: I wasn't anymore excited about those games. But the worst thing (and what I want to share with you guys) was that I realized that the whole "creating the "perfect" puzzle is something fake/illusionistic". It is human-impossible, a perfect puzzle to be created. Because puzzles, will be either illogical (according to common sense/not realistic), very difficult to solve them / lucky guess to solve them OR realistic but very easy to solve them a.k.a. "just click to see what is next".

So, the bottom line is that (in my opinion) adventure games were the finest example of showing off the power of the previous decades, computer systems, but for the modern days, the only thing that remains is a niche genre for the so called "hunters of nostalgia" or for those who are fans of the movies or for those who totally hate games which require quick reflexes or a strategic brain or rpg atmosphere. Anyway, I think you got the point  


P.s. I am sorry for any mistakes. My native language is greek.

[Igor Hardy]

Actually the whole point is a mistake.

You might have only just realized there will never be a perfect puzzle, but it's pretty much common knowledge among fans of adventure games. However, the puzzles never needed to be "perfect" in the first place. Their unpredictability and variety is part of the fun of solving them.

Assuming that the other genres are free of frustration and tedium for the player - or that they don't attempt to ride on the nostalgia factor - is similarly silly.

Still, I'm really sorry you can no longer enjoy the thrill of playing an adventure game.

[CaptainD]

Hmm.. I've rarely seen a post I disagree with more!  (Other than the obvious that there is not "perfect puzzle".)  Well, when I say disagree, obviously I don't disagree with what you say about how you feel - just that my own love of adventure games started about the same time as yours and has never really diminished - in fact I'd say it's grown over the last few years.  The line between puzzles being too easy or too obscure / illogical is of course a difficult one to master, but if an adventure game has a good mix of puzzles as Ascovel said along with a good storyline, it's easy to forgive the odd puzzle being easy or not making much sense.  That's just the joy of games players I guess - we're all different!

[kaput]

There will never be a perfect movie, book, song, painting - you know where I'm going with this. Does there need to be? I don't think so. Nothing is perfect.

the only thing that remains is a niche genre for the so called "hunters of nostalgia" or for those who are fans of the movies or for those who totally hate games which require quick reflexes or a strategic brain or rpg atmosphere. Anyway, I think you got the point

I like all the things you mention and I'm pretty confident I'm not the only one. I really can't pinpoint what your motivation is for this discussion? Is this a discussion?

[Khris]

So a puzzle can't both make sense and be of medium difficulty? Says who?

[seriousquirrel]

@Sunny Penguin: Painting, movie, book, song are non interactive. A game IS. It has to be. That's the 80% percent of success. A game is a movie or a book with paintings and songs PLUS interaction. It is a key point in order to be successful. Mostly, in the adventure game genre (and in all the other game genres of course but not so much), you have to be inside developer's mind and TRY to figure out HOW they were thinking while they were created the game. In a movie or a book, you just don't. You can sit and watch or read or listen without doing anything else. The story will go. The song will continue. Even if you see things in a movie, that you know that could never happen in the real life (okay, one stupid example. James Bond!) still you can sit and watch till the end. In the end, you will say to yourself "Oh, what a bullshit I just saw. I agree, James Bond films are stupid. Not perfect for sure. But for example, Alfred Hitchcock's "Vertigo" is considered by critics and the majority of world's population ....a masterpiece.
On the other hand, let's talk about ....... hmmmmm, King's Quest V. The puzzle with the mouse and the cat. You call that a joy ? Am I loosing something here ?

I swear God, if Roberta Williams was sitting near me, I would love to punch her. The hell I would. 

My motivation was an attempt I made to create puzzles for a story of mine.
Besides, I am on the AGS forum!!! Why do you believe I wrote on a forum, dedicated for adventure game creation?
I am not so crazy as you want to believe.... :p

Update. Guys, I am not here to argue and I am not here to tell you what is the definition of a "perfect" puzzle. Probably you misunderstood me. Because I can not express myself as I normally do, in my native language. I am limited cause of my poor knowledge in English. Sorry.

All I want to say is that adventure developers (with the characteristic gameplay of genuine "old school" adventure games we all know) will NEVER-EVER (even we talk about commercial games or indie games) find out how to create a "perfect" puzzle because ....that's how things are. JUST BECAUSE. I can not explain it.

And I wrote this post here, just to share my thoughts with other people. That's all.

[Stupot]

You can't have a perfect anything when you have an audience of more than one person.  A puzzle that is too hard for me might be a piece of cake for someone else.  And everyone has different tolerance levels what what classes as 'illogical'.

If you always used a walkthrough then no wonder you got bored of adventures.  Walkthroughs are a godsend when you're genuinely stuck, but process of at least trying to solve most of the puzzles by yourself is (for me anyway) the whole reason I enjoy playing them.

[kaput]

Hehe, I do understand your frustration SS. Come on, there never has nor ever will be a 'perfect' puzzle that suits everybody, well all know that, no matter how much we shout about it. People have different needs, different expectations. Some people would argue that the past games were better because they wouldn't hold your hand throughout the game and wipe your eyes when you cried. On the other hand, gamers, 'in general', want everything to be easier now because technology has made our lives easier thus we expect every aspect of our lives to be just so. One man's perfect is another man's nightmare.

Adventure games haven't evolved as quickly as other genres, granted, but they still kick ass. I admit I get really annoyed with some adventure games, they make me want to spoon my eyes out, sure. But there are still loads that break the mould.

Here is a good article, dunno if you read it: http://grumpygamer.com/5777333

Some of the points pretty much sum up my opinion on building an adventure game. 

[Ali]

I swear God, if Roberta Williams was sitting near me, I would love to punch her. The hell I would.  You can call that a joy??? Am I loosing something??

Your English is mostly fine, but I suggest you find a way of rephrasing this to make your meaning clear. Ideally without threatening to punch Roberta Williams...

[Igor Hardy]

So you're saying you wouldn't want to punch Alfred Hitchcock or any other filmmaker, but you would Roberta Williams? Weird.

"In order to be successful", "perfection", "masterpiece"? Why so serious, squirrel? What is so great about a stupid film going through to the end on its own, without interaction, that you prefer that experience to being stuck on figuring a puzzle?

Adventure games are not machines, they don't need to efficiently go through all their programmed processes to serve some mundane purposes. They are about allowing yourself to get lost in an artificial world, giving into the lie, so the illusion of participating in an adventure can overtake you. If you're not able to do that, a perfect puzzle will not help you enjoy an adventure game either.

[qptain Nemo]

I have a few things to say. Putting your final conclusion aside for the moment, you raise some fair points. But the thing is, adventure games have many issues, they always had, but their audience just has so much fun with them nobody cares about those issues, or at least they don't stop people who are into the genre from having fun. Personally I very rarely play adventure games for the puzzles (for me it's more about narrative and interactivity), so I don't care that much, as long as the puzzles aren't obnoxious and ruining the whole experience.

Having said that, however, the way I see it, there are puzzles that are good enough to be considered perfect for all intents and purposes. You said you've played Spellcasting, what about Death Gate from the same company? I think Legend entertainment was remarkably good at design, and in Death Gate the puzzles really shine. I can always point towards Death Gate and confidently say "That's how you do it". Then there's Flight of the Amazon Queen, a game that is in my opinion remarkable for being "just good" and not falling into either greatness or mediocrity, which includes puzzles, that have just the right difficulty and most of the time are perfectly logical and satisfying to figure out. Then there is recent Memoria that nailed absolutely perfectly everything you could do in an adventure game.

So yeah, I don't care about the concept of perfection applied to puzzles that much, even though I've enjoyed them in many games, but for the sake of the argument I don't agree with  Sunny Penguin. For me there are definitely things that are so good that no further improvements and fixes would actually increase the joy they bring or the overall quality. I do agree with "One man's perfect is another man's nightmare." though, to a certain extent.

And unlike Igor, I'm not sorry. Adventure games are damn fun, but they don't offer everything you can wish of a game. So there's nothing wrong with being tired of them or not being satisfied with them. I don't think we should be obsessively repressed or ashamed about this.

[seriousquirrel]

"In order to be successful", "perfection", "masterpiece"? Why so serious, squirrel? What is so great about a stupid film going through to the end on its own, without interaction, that you prefer that experience to being stuck on figuring a puzzle?

Okay, another example. Non logical puzzle. Broken Sword 1. For many, one of the finest adventure games, ever made. Puzzle number one. You want to take something from a tool box in the second screen of the game, where a man is working. How to get rid of that man? Give him ...... the newspaper!!!! Why the hell should I give a newspaper, to a man working? Because developers in Revolution thought that this was clever. This is not a case of a hard puzzle. Actually, I solved it before I saw the walkthrough. How I did? Because at that time in the game, you carry only 2 items in your inventory and in that screen, there are only 3 hotspots. Man, tool box, door. This is a case of, according to me,  non logical puzzle. It is a "classic" style puzzle but if you think about it, there is no...logic. As much as I try to be George Stobbart, why would I give the newspaper to that man? Because it was a lucky try. On the other hand, a big explosion happened near him and he did ..... nothing. He just continued to work.
And, as much as I try to "enter" a world of fantasy....like Space Quest's or any other game you think.....I can't think like a character living in a world like that. I believe it is not about "diving" into that world and trying to be "Roger Wilco". It is about diving into Scott Murphy's mind.......

Oh, forget it. I can't express better myself. Learn greek folks :p :p 

[Anian]

Actually I think the worker mentions something about horse racing at one point and newspaper has report on the races.
But you're not talking about puzzle logic any more, you're talking about video game logic and you just can't go in that direction so far. You might as well ask why you can't visit the entire city of Paris in the game.

[Ghost]

Squirrel, don't let people disagreeing with your point get you down- that's how many interesting discussions start!

Let's start at the bottom. What *is* a perfect puzzle? I'd say it is an obstacle the player must overcome in order to advance the plot, and solving it requires no "meta-knowledge" (walkthrough, wikipedia, whatever)- it can be solved by using the information and resources given by the game. Additionally, the solution should make sense (even if just after solving it). Is that a valid definition?

[Snarky]

A perfect puzzle is one that is fun: it has you puzzled for a bit, and then you solve it and you feel clever and like it has contributed to your enjoyment of the game.

[Ghost]

A perfect puzzle is one that is fun:

And there I would say that a puzzle, per "definition", is not about fun. It's about (intellectual/logical) challenge. A game is meant to be/ about fun- and I suspect that this is the core of the problem as squirrel phrases it

[EliasFrost]

I don't think there will ever be a perfect puzzle, mainly due to the fact that people engage differently with different things and puzzles are meant to engage the player to find the solution to a problem. There are people who really like numbers, so they prefer puzzles based puzzles, there are people who like geometry, and they prefer puzzles that involves different shapes, see where I'm going? If we go further than just the puzzle, I think we can get closer to the 'perfect' puzzle game (though perfect is such a cryptic term, I avoid it when I can) if we combine different kinds of puzzles to create a varied and wide-range game that will engage people with all kinds of mind. I don't believe there are any good or right kind of puzzles though, it's all about the player and what she finds engaging, not what you believe is a good puzzle (that's what playtesters are for).

[Snarky]

And there I would say that a puzzle, per "definition", is not about fun. It's about (intellectual/logical) challenge. A game is meant to be/ about fun- and I suspect that this is the core of the problem as squirrel phrases it

The challenge is part of the definition of what a "puzzle" is. "Fun" is the part that makes it perfect (though as everyone has said, that's not a great term).

[qptain Nemo]

For me a perfect adventure game puzzle is entirely logical yet still very creative and unobvious use of objects (or people) that will make me go "this is brilliant!" after I solve it (or "damn, that was brilliant, I should've given it more time" after I looked it up in a walkthrough).

[Babar]

I mostly agree with your points, squirrel, at least as I understand them. I've often brought up my dissatisfaction with puzzles in traditional adventure games, and my desire to separate the idea of "puzzles" from the idea of "adventure games".
There will, of course, never be a perfect puzzle, and that in itself isn't anything too bad. But what with easily accessible walkthroughs, and weak-willed persons like myself, it isn't the same experience any more. For me it is less "This puzzle is brilliant!", and more like "I feel so good for finishing this game without a walkthrough!" (last one was a while back...one of the Blackwell's I think). But again, I never played adventure games for the puzzles either. For me, they were mostly an obstacle for the advancement of the story. I realise that some form of obstacle would probably be necessary to make the advancement seem meaningful and worthwhile, but I'm not so sure any more that puzzles are the way to do it.

My favourite puzzles in adventure games are the ones where a system has been clearly defined, and you have to work within it, and then occasionally creatively subvert it- like the swordfighting in The Secret of Monkey Island that culminated with fighting and beating the sword-master, or the time-travel puzzles in Day of the Tentacle, or the entire game of Loom. Those are probably the only games where I had the "That was a brilliant solution" feeling with regards to puzzles- laughing at how well some response I learned to an insult by one of the lesser pirates worked with the Sword-master, or how an inverted draft applied to a situation where you wouldn't think it would be normally applied worked so well.

If you speak out any puzzle in any of the major adventure games in a sequence, you realise how mind-blowingly absurd they usually are, even in non-comedic or more serious games, not only in the difficulty sense, but also in a narrative sense- Indiana Jones had you whip at some rodent-beast repeatedly until it went through a series of exits until it finally comes out to a point where an anaconda is sitting blocking your path, causing the anaconda to grab it and get out of your way. Or at another nearby point in the game, you had to figure out a password to get a guy to trust you, and the way to do it was to first say you didn't know the word, THEN go ask a nearby parrot, who would repeat it to you, and you'd then tell it to the guy, who would then accept it.

Someone else (I forget who), mentioned that this was just one of those quirks you had to take with adventure games- you don't complain in a stealth game about the absurdity of the villain's lair having an entire network of ventilation tunnels you can go from one end to the other end with. Or the silliness of having a health bar where you're okay even if you have 1% health left, but then you suddenly die. Or the idea of carrying several dozen guns and weapons at once, which would usually break a person's back.
I don't know, why I feel it more in adventure games. Maybe they're meant to focus more on the story, so it bothers me more.