Dada: Stagnation In Blue (Now with new link and extra mirror sites)

[GarageGothic]

I just played Dada an hour or so ago, and it inspired me immensely. I didn't have too much trouble with the puzzles, except "The Boatman's Call" (sorry, just had to make that Nick Cave reference), but I think it would work better without them, logical thinking seems to be the exact opposite of what the game is about. Although I see interesting perspectives in puzzles of association - solving puzzles by letting your mind wander, the monkey wrench puzzle of MI2 taken to it's extreme.

Anyhow, I'm not sure that I'm ready to add my two cents yet. I really just wanted to quote, and link to, Tristan Tzara's Dada manifesto. I think these paragraphs capture the game really well:

"Dada is a state of mind. That is why it transforms itself according to races and events. Dada applies itself to everything, and yet it is nothing, it is the point where the yes and the no and all the opposites meet, not solemnly in the castles of human philosophies, but very simply at street corners, like dogs and grasshoppers.

Like everything in life, Dada is useless.

Dada is without pretension, as life should be."

You can find the whole manifesto at http://www.english.upenn.edu/~jenglish/English104/tzara.html

[DGMacphee]

GG: Interesting you mention logical thinking puzzles -- Maybe I was trying to rationalise something admidst everything.

Then again, maybe my mind's just a mess.  

Next Dada game, I might just make the puzzles completely arbitrary.

But I'm glad you posted that paragraph -- In hindsight, that is kinda the state of the game!

[rookworm3]

Which is ironic because I choose the songs that reminded me of death and depression -- I had more but they simply would have been overkill.

Ironic to be sure! The selection of those well-known pieces in itself, much like "Best of Classical", "Great Composers' Greatest Hits", "Classical Favourites", etc., is quite depressing, mainly because it trivializes great works of art and turns them into easy-listening.

Also, I think the main problem with the game is not its originality, but its lack thereof. It's easy to make a piece of crap and call it "dada art", but without the historical context, the label does not really apply, as I hinted earlier. "Art" is not an excuse for something poorly made! Pretension does not replace content.

[Las Naranjas]

For the benefit of Igor http://www.sylpher.com/novomestro/blargh.htm

[Denzil Quixode]

Hee hee. I love games like this.

[Czar]

well, now your posts really get me to think. After this game, and all that you said, I, and i think others, look at you under a different light. Now you revealed yourself more as a person with deeper thoughts, wider thoughts about adventure game borders, and now i see you more as the man on your current avatar, than the man on the previous avatar.
Now i see that if you put a smiley, i will somehow not see it.
I noticed the: Goodbye! I'm leaving until i achieve something!
well, does that have anything to do with the posts on the gen forum?
After i read this i wanted to say something similar like you about games now and movies before,  but a mind freeze happened to me. Dont you ever get a feeling that you want to say something, but you actually dont have the words for it, so you would just think about it in silence, but when you actually tried to think you couldnt, and you would stay on one thought for a half an our...
Aah. I better write this in the morning, i'm obvously not ready for typing now.
I just wanted to say to you DG, that the thinggs, the points you just made are one of the most interesting i ever heard about games and movies and art. Well you should write a book, and i should go to sleep.


I'll probably delte this post after i wake up, and realize what i wrote.

[DGMacphee]

Which is ironic because I choose the songs that reminded me of death and depression -- I had more but they simply would have been overkill.

Ironic to be sure! The selection of those well-known pieces in itself, much like "Best of Classical", "Great Composers' Greatest Hits", "Classical Favourites", etc., is quite depressing, mainly because it trivializes great works of art and turns them into easy-listening.

I never set out to trivialise anything -- I was only inspired by a great art movement that I've studied before, and great classical music, which I've also studied before too.

And even great poetry too -- How come you never said anything about the trivialisation of Anne Sexton's poetry in my game?

I hope you concede to my use of the art, music, and poetry knowing that I've at least read widely on these subjects and written about them (and been paid for writing some of those articles too).

Also, I think the main problem with the game is not its originality, but its lack thereof. It's easy to make a piece of crap and call it "dada art", but without the historical context, the label does not really apply, as I hinted earlier. "Art" is not an excuse for something poorly made! Pretension does not replace content.

I can't help the fact that you think the game is crap, poorly made and without historical context -- as I said, I never made the game for the purpose of people liking it and thus your opinion here is fine.

However, I am BITTERLY opposed to you reducing a moment of my depression to the level of "pretension".

Las:

For the benefit of Igor http://www.sylpher.com/novomestro/blargh.htm

I am going to reference you plenty of times in my tutorial, Las!


Czar:
Thanks for the comments.

THe avatar is actually a scene of Jack Nicholson from the film FIVE EASY PIECES (Hence the quote below him).

I would have used a pic of him from THE LAST DETAIL but I lent my copy to some else (Doh!).

As for the reference, many people have asked the same things, so I guess I can only reply: "Who knows?"

[rookworm3]

I can't help the fact that you think the game is crap, poorly made and without historical context -- as I said, I never made the game for the purpose of people liking it and thus your opinion here is fine.

Actually, I don't think it is crap, I played through it, after all. I was just venting a little. In fact, I enjoyed many aspects of it, e.g. the idea of having a man in a trench-coat on a quest to get a knife for someone to kill himself.

However, I am BITTERLY opposed to you reducing a moment of my depression to the level of "pretension".

Also, I can sympathize with your situation. Depression sucks big time, and it is an achievement to have made something like D:SIB while depressed. But why not call it therapy instead of "Art"?

[DGMacphee]

Ah, now we find a happy medium!

I notice you use "art", as in with quotation marks.

You'll notice that when I also describe the game as "art", I also use quotation marks.

Read my previous replies to Igor and you'll see what I mean -- I use the word "art" in a very loose sense (and without pretention).

But I never made the "game" (more quotation marks) to be something more than it is -- as far as I can see, it's just a good conversation piece and without any great life-affirming insights.

But please, don't label it as pretentious -- I'm not trying to pimp the "new wave" of adventure games here.

[Andail]

Generally, I'm not sure this game is very dadaistic...dadaism mostly is about arbitrary non-sensical issues that are used to kind of give contrast to other, more important things. Dadaism is pretty non-pretentious, whereas this game has the pretentions of setting the player in a certain mood.

In the read-me file, it says DG is not responsible for any effects the game might have to the player, something which I doubt a dadaist would care to write.

As an expression for the creator's state of mind, it probably works pretty well, although I'd have to say it has a few too many overexplicit symbols...you could easily have created the same dull mood with less obvious effects. I hope you understand what I mean.

[Sluggo]

The game was interesting (I didn't really understand a few of the background scenes). I didn't like a lot of the dialog though; the main character and the wife beater seemed too happy. I think you used the exclamation point too much.

The thing is though, that since it's an artistic game it's hard to criticize because the fact that it's artistic is an excuse for all its shortcommings. There's no animation, minimal background interaction, inconsistent art style, and things like that. But I can think of several excuses for each one of these because it was an artistic choice (but that's just my assumption, and is why you can't really criticize it).
I don't think I got a lot out of this game though, besides a general atmosphere.

Which is ironic because I choose the songs that reminded me of death and depression -- I had more but they simply would have been overkill.

You make some other points about atmosphere, but I can't really say much else of the same topic as I believe atmosphere is something subjective.

I find this curious because when I listen to Pachelbel's canon or Bach's air I definately don't think of death and depression. They're more uplifting than a lot of the music I've heard, but as you said, atmosphere is subjective. I just found it interesting.

Dada on the other hand is trying to be "art" just for the sake of being "art"

Strange that that is the motto of MGM. "Ars gratia artis"

[Las Naranjas]

air on a G string always makes me sad.

It could be a EoE thing which DG shares, but I think it extended before that.

[DGMacphee]

Andail:
I get what you mean, but I have some comments for reply.

I can safely say: the game is very arbitrary, with or without intention.

And to provide proof, it's actually just a collection of random google image searches.

I gathered the images, then made the game based on that.

I didn't have any set "mood" in mind -- it pretty much turned out the way it did based upon how I felt, I guess.

I doubt any human being can help this -- Even when a "true" Dadaist tries to separate himself from feeling, he still replicates that same alienated sense of emotion upon the canvas.

I had no pretentions as to player feeling, because I intented nothing for the "game".

In the read-me file, it says DG is not responsible for any effects the game might have to the player, something which I doubt a dadaist would care to write.

I actually wrote that more for legal reasons.

The last thing I wanted was for some angsty 13 year-old to kill themselves after playing my game (which could have happened -- it's pretty fucking depressing game) and thus have their parents sue me.

Having said that, I'd still be very sad, with or without a warning, if anyone committed suicide over something I made.

It other words: just taking a precaution.

As for the symbology, I meant nothing by it -- partially why I'm asking for interpretations of it.

The game actually means nothing to me -- it was only a catharsis and I meant no actual point to it.

I mean, to go through all that and to end by talking to a dead foetus -- what the hell was a drinking when I came up with that?  



Sluggo:

The game was interesting (I didn't really understand a few of the background scenes).

Don't worry, I didn't understand them either.

I don't think I got a lot out of this game though, besides a general atmosphere.

If that's what you got, then that's all that matters.

I find this curious because when I listen to Pachelbel's canon or Bach's air I definately don't think of death and depression. They're more uplifting than a lot of the music I've heard, but as you said, atmosphere is subjective. I just found it interesting.

and
Narangas:

air on a G string always makes me sad.

It could be a EoE thing which DG shares, but I think it extended before that.

Naranjas is right -- Part of it is an EoE thing, but it does extend beyond this.

When I was little, I first heard this song played at the funeral of a relative.

[rookworm3]

What the heck does EoE stand for?

[DGMacphee]

End of Evangelion.

Actually, from memory the song was used in the Eva Death and Rebirth film, not EoE.

[rookworm3]

When I hear Air on the G-string, I think of LSL1VGA (you can play it on the jukebox at the bar).  I get into that kind of mood where you're just too eager to make sophomoric jokes.  *makes farting noises*

[DGMacphee]

Hehehe, I remember that too!  

[Shattered Sponge]

End of Evangelion.

Actually, from memory the song was used in the Eva Death and Rebirth film, not EoE.

Air was in EoE, during the Asuka/Eva-series fight; the canon was in Death and Rebirth during the credits sequence between the two segments (IIRC - it's been over a year since I saw D&R).

 Personally I find that Pachelbel's Canon reminds me of the steps along an epic journey - such as someone's life - being remembered with nostalgia and regret (two emotions which aren't as contradictory to one another as it would first seem) as it all comes to an end; I can quite easily see how that would be equated with death.
 The feelings I experience when listening to Air are harder to define, for me, however - it certainly contains the same kind of subtleties beyond it's mere beauty, but it's much more difficult to put my finger on what exactly they are.  I don't think it's just association with EoE (nor with Battle Royale or any other films which may have used it in a similar context), however - if you look at the sequence with the cherry-pop music playing while instrumentality is taking place, the emotional resonance comes from the juxtaposition between such a jovial - to the point of being rather trite - tune and the often horrific events taking place on screen (along with the less-than uplifting lyrics of the song itself) - listening to the song by itself, it is still almost rediculously upbeat, regardless of how many times it has affected me in a much different way during my numerous viewings of the film.  Now look at the scene in which Air is employed; although there is a contrariety between the aforementioned beauty of the piece and the harsh, violent and loud nature of the fight itself, this does not account for the bulk of the emotional effect, which seems to me much more complex than that, and thus - as I said - much more difficult to put my finger on.  It is possible, however, that the subtleties of the music only became apparent once you had heard them in the context in which they are presented in the film, which certainly serves to make them more apparent.

[MrColossal]

http://diygames.com/news/index.php?mesid=770ime=1060575532&sid=43446.PfbnQmr
anyone see that?

the comment seems a little awkward but there you go DG

--edit-- removing offensive image

[DGMacphee]

Whoa...

I should make fucked-up games more often!