Dada: Stagnation In Blue (Now with new link and extra mirror sites)

[DGMacphee]

Hi there!

I made a game called Dada: Stagnation In Blue (it's a shortie):
http://homepage.powerup.com.au/~hooks/Dada.zip

Mirrors:
Dave Gilbert's Super-Cool mirror
Butt-ugly Tripod mirror

It's currently at version 1.1.

A warning though -- do not play it if at work, school or you get depressed easily, because this game is very unsettling in parts.

And don't let children play it either.

Thank you.


veryweirdguy -- the mirror you posted now doesn't work for some reason.  

[Timosity]

Interesting, quite a depressing tale of events, but with the world these days, it's hard to be offended.

I don't know whether I even liked it or not but I can see the inspirations from the art.

It does make you think a for a while after playing it though, it's still churning in my mind.

[Hobbes]

I managed to download it without any problems...

It's indeed not a game to be played when you're feeling down. As said before, it's... odd. I just stopped playing for a moment, but it's still in me head.

Arrgh.

[veryweirdguy]

I'll try to provide a mirror...

Get it here

Dear God, I hope it works...

[PeaceMan]

You can call me stupid, you can call me ignorant but I don't get it. This is what I think about it.

Spoiler

Why are you helping people kill themselves? Shouldn't you be helping them in a world full of hate and pain by supporting them instead of trying to help them to die? Why do you help the wife beater? If I had seen someone doing this right infront of me I would kill him where he stands. I am not an evil person but if people like hurting others either physically or mentally I have no problem with them being put into a great deal of pain, (as the Bible says "An eye for an eye"). Though the game kind of reminded me about what has been happening here resently (sp) with the hate threads and people leaving.

[close]

Could someone explain this as I have no knowledge about art as some of my thoughts about what was happening in the game may be wrong.

Thanks,

[DGMacphee]

Peaceman:

Spoiler

I think you've actually got it without realising it -- In many ways, the game is meant to challenge your perception.

[close]

However, I'm not going into any deep analysis for you because I think it means something different for everyone.

I would like to hear what others think it all means.

[Barcik]

Social criticsm is a nutshell!

I enjoyed this game, especially the atmosphere. I loved the abstract art, which fit perfectly with the mood of the game.

Spoiler

My take on things:
The game begins with a moody person asking for a knife, and ends with him killing himself. In between the player gets to see the raw 'evil'. Non of  this cosmetic, favoured, 'evils' we see on the news, but things as they are: Depression due to looks (of a very pretty girl), supported wife-beating, war. The art only makes these scenes twice as strong. In the end, that person, after seeing the 'evils' of our world face to face ends his life. As for the fetus, I am still wondering about it.

[close]

[rookworm3]

hmmm. This game has issues

I'm stuck:

Spoiler

I have diamonds, water, tears, have been to four locations. what next?

[close]

[DGMacphee]

Spoiler

Call out to the boatkeeper across the river

[close]

[rookworm3]

Thanks, finished it. Must say, "dada" is the right word.... maybe 80 years too late for that though.  Also, as far as the adventury elements go, it was hard to figure out what to do next in many places; the hotspots were not reallly clear (under the bridge for example). The intro was very nice, though.

[aurynnz]

Interesting game - more of the same please.

=A=

[DGMacphee]

rookworm: It's a shame they didn't have computers 80 years ago.

And yes a lot of the stuff was hard to figure out -- then again, I think the whole game is a series of arbitrary links.

aurynnz: Glad you liked it, but it might be a while before I do another Dada game.

[MillsJROSS]

What about a Mama game?

But seriosly folks....good job DG. It was interesting. Can't say I have any real interesting ideas about it...but it makes you think. If it, at least, does that, even if you don't reach a conclusion, than I feel it's a success.

-MillsJROSS

[danny*]

great atmosphere in your game DG!!!!
I enjoyed it a lot!
great.

[Igor]

Interesting idea DGM! I won't say i loved the game, but i certainly appreciate the experiment.
If you don't mind some critics: i understand this is an artistic game... but as with 80%-90% of modern art, i have a feeling the "art" is just a word used by people to cover up the fact they actually don't have much to say. True, you opened up some interesting topics and there are some wonderfully executed scenes (the first one and the one with abused wife for example)... but in whole, i think it's not developed enough. It doesn't really explore the advantages of interactivity and it feels a bit rushed. Instead of pulling you into the atmophere&hidden messages, puzzles seem forced and only alienate the player from the action on screen (to the point, i didn't feel anything while playing the game).

Anyway, hope you don't mind the critic. It's interesting as it is... i just feel it could be even better. I know you tried to keep spontaneousness of, let's say, painting an abstract picture- but i think games (or movies) are different medium and they need to be more thought out (and as a result take more time to make) if you wish them to be effective.

[DGMacphee]

I appreciated your criticism greatly, Igor.

I can understand why you didn't like the game -- I never really made the game with the intention of anyone liking it, so it was expected.

As for the "game" and "puzzles" (and I use both words very loosely as you probably would too), I agree they do seem rushed -- but I didn't do that because of lack of time.

I think the game provided a catharsis for a moment of depression I had -- The Uni holidays are almost over and my accomplishments during the time are zero, which left me feeling a little saddened (expecially when I compared to my previous Uni holiday, where I accomplished a great deal).

Hence the title, "Stagnation in Blue".

I could have spent another day working on the exact specifics of interactions so that other people would enjoy the "game" -- but that would just labour how I feel and thus ruin my own satisfaction.

You're right -- I didn't really have anything to say in the "game", cause I didn't intend to.

It was interesting to read people's interpretations of it though.

However, I do want to make another Dada game (one prehaps a little more user-friendly and game-like) and your comments are very helpful in developing the next project.

Still got to finish Dark Hero first, though.

[Igor]

Glad to hear about Dark Hero! I was playing the demo and loved it

About Dada- It's not that i didn't like the game... i just didn't really care about what's going on. I figured the whole game was more of a personal search. However, in my opinion, such experiments translates much better in paintings, music or poetry than in games where the audience isn't just a passive observer, but they need to interact too (and so they need to be stimulated in some way to play their part). Also the process of making a game is much less personal and direct than with painting a picture. For a game, you need to first create graphics, then put them in AGS and then script it, etc.... while for a painting you just need some colors and canvas to directly "pour" your temporary feelings in picture.

Not that i don't think it's possible to create a good abstract game- quite contrary (some scenes in Dada, for example, were great)... but in my opinion, it shouldn't mimic already established rules of classic "art", but create some completely new mechanics, that would make an advantage of interactions.

[DGMacphee]

I disagree with that.

There was an article in an ST Format magazine years and years go (obviously, as it was an Atari ST magazine), and it quoted Godard with the following:

"Photography is the truth. Cinema is twenty four truths a second."

Then it cam back with:

"Multimedia is the truth at 12Mhz."

My point in using this quote is not to argue the point of truth (whether it's absolute or not), but to demonstrate the old McLuhan adage "The medium is the message."

Like other mediums (such as painting, photography, cinema, books, etc), multimedia is a form of relating a particular "truth", especially personal truths.

The reason why multimedia hasn't expanded greatly into "artistic" areas is because gamers are more used to conventional games.

The same thing happened to the film industry.

During the 20s, people would often go see fairly standard and conventional Hollywood films.

During this periomd, Salvador Dali wrote a film called Un chien andalou with Luis Bunuel in 1929.

People hated it -- And understandably, as a 1920s public would detest scenes of a eye being slit open, severed hands, rotting donkeys, etc.

Bunuel even brought stones with him to throw at the critics during the premiere.

However, flashforward to the 40s and you have Dali working in conjunction with Hitchcock on Spellbound -- although I'm not a Hitchcock fan I appreciate his ability to bend the "rules" of cinema, if not break them.

Spellbound was quite a success, partially due to Hitchcock, and paritallly because films of the 40s started to embrace psycho-analytical theories into stories.

Flashforward to the 60s and you have more great directors who really challenged the rules of cinema: Kubrick, Godard, Fellini, Norman Jewison, and John Schlesinger (who died yesterday   ).

These directrors (Hitchcock, Kubrick, Godard, Fellini) influenced a new breed of filmmaker in the 70s -- one who went all out in experimentation and artistic development, and people would go to see their films -- such directors include Dennis Hopper (Easy Rider), Robert Altman (MASH), Francis Ford Coppola (Apocalypse Now, The Conversation, The Godfather), Martin Scorsese (Mean Streets, Taxi Driver), Peter Bogdanovich (The Last Picture Show), William Friedkin (The French Connection), Woody Allen (Annie Hall), and my favourite Hal Ashby (The Last Detail, Harold and Maude, Shampoo, Coming Home).

These 70s directors broke the "rules" of cinema, only because their predecessors broke and bent some "rules" before them.

However, go back to Dali who used the surrealistic artistic movement he was famous for as part of his 17 minute film in 1929, and not many liked it.

It was because they weren't realy for it -- they prefered the conventional styles of cinema.

It's only when critics look back and see what a masterpiece it was and how ahead of its time it was -- even though people didn't appreciate it then.

However, I'm no Dali -- far from it.

But I believe the same thing is happening is the gaming industry: gamers today prefer conventional styles of games and don't jump at more personal "arty" games -- But, who knows what will happen in the future?

I also disagree that games shouldn't have influence from artistic styles -- there have been some successful commercial projects that include great amounts of artistic influnce.

For example, Grim Fandango wouldn't be the same game without influence from Incan and Mayan art styles.

Also, look up interactive projects from musicians such as Peter Gabriel -- His Xplora project from 1994 was very successful, won several awards, was very well designed and informative, and yet it was very personal and artistic too.

That is why I believe AGS creates a type of canvas for the artist to "pour" their heart/soul/feelings/message/truth/etc and it's much the same as any medium.

Artists are never limited by the tools they use -- they're only limited by themselves.




As a side point of interest, I was interested to read this:

Glad to hear about Dark Hero! I was playing the demo and loved it

To be fairly honest, the demo (and game) is fairly conventional in terms of AGS's usage.

However, you also state this about Dada:

but in my opinion, it shouldn't mimic already established rules of classic "art", but create some completely new mechanics, that would make an advantage of interactions.

It struck me as odd that you'd praise a fairly conventional game like Dark Hero, and yet say that a "game" like Dada should make better use of AGS's interactive environment, despite the fact it was an attempt as something unconventional.

I'm not too sure if you have too high of an expectation of Dada, but I'm interested to know why you'd praise something conventional and then say something unconventional should make better use of AGS's environment.

It seems like a contradiction.

I bring this up not as a smartarse point to criticise you, but I am keenly interested in why you make such a contradiction of expectation in an interactive environment.

To me it's similar to saying: "I don't drink Skim Milk because it contains fat, but I drink Full Cream Milk because I enjoy the taste."

I would sincerely like to hear an elaboration on this distinction and contradiction -- maybe you can explain it better to me (and this could also add to the whole Game Theory discussion in the Gen forum).

Speak to you soon.

[Igor]

I think, it's not about game being "conventional" or "unconventional". It's about how well it does what it does. Simple as that. Dark Hero is great, because it captures player's interest and it gives you a reason to play on. Dada on the other hand is trying to be "art" just for the sake of being "art" and it also means more to author than to audience. Game-play wise, it's actually just as conventional as Dark Hero, except the puzzles are not as thought out and it feels rushed.

About games as art- it's certainly possible. You exposed Grim Fandango as an example of an "artistic" game and i agree (ICO could be also mentioned here), i'm also familiar with Peter Gabriel's project. But you see, they all took advantage of interactivity&multimedia and there was a lot of thought put into designing them. Even if they borrowed something, they did so, to make the game even better experience. That's my only grip with Dada- it doesn't have any developed concept (except, obviously, for Dada-style art) and it tries to be too similar to classic (static) abstract art: music is there, but it doesn't bring much to the atmosphere... puzzles are there, but again, they don't bring to the atmosphere. Trying to capture *temporary* mood with games, only means project will be rushed, instead of actually being designed with thought and trying to evoke some feelings in player (and that's the only way to keep them playing- after all, that's the essence of games). Such way of "development" may work in paintings, but i don't think it translates well in game.

Again, i don't think movies should be compared to games too much. Sure, they use similar mechanics at some points, but interactivity is what separate them appart so much. In other words- what work in movies won't necessarily work in games and vice versa.
Btw, i'll be away for a week or two, so it may take a while before my next reply

[DGMacphee]

It's about how well it does what it does. Simple as that.

Not really that simple and objective as you state -- there are some games that don't do interactivity well and still manage to be enjoyable (I found Seasons of the Sakura to be a very enjoyable game despite the low amount of interaction).

Meanwhile, there are some games I've played which provide amazing interactivity and still manage to be crap (Such as Escape from Monkey Island).

Dada on the other hand is trying to be "art" just for the sake of being "art" and it also means more to author than to audience.

I disagree with the first half of this sentence -- I never made it for the sake of being art.

And I also disagree with the second part -- Although I made it with the express purpose of a being a personal catharsis, it doesn't actually mean much to me on a conscious level (In a way, it's like when you sleep and have a dream).

Once again, I think you're expecting too much of Dada.

I think you are trying to find a life-affirming ideal (concept is the word you use later) in this game that simply doesn't exist and shouldn't exist, because I never would have made it in such circumstances as formulating a ideal or concept. (more on why later in this post)

That's my only grip with Dada- it doesn't have any developed concept (except, obviously, for Dada-style art) and it tries to be too similar to classic (static) abstract art: music is there, but it doesn't bring much to the atmosphere

Which is ironic because I choose the songs that reminded me of death and depression -- I had more but they simply would have been overkill.

You make some other points about atmosphere, but I can't really say much else of the same topic as I believe atmosphere is something subjective.

As for rushing the project, I admit to that, but I've already explained why I rushed it -- It's was a project based upon how I felt at the time, and labouring for an extra day on the finer points of plot, structure, and narrative would only lose the sense of how I'd feel about the project -- Thus, I'd become distanced from it and it wouldn't be as interesting to me.

In fact, if I laboured upon it I probably would have ended up deleting it.

In a sense, I look at it in the same way human beings think -- in uncomplete thoughts and most of the them scattered around our brain.

If I turned it into a completely structured and deeply interactive project, it wouldn't feel as human and simple as it is.

I could have put the degree of deep thought into the project as you would have liked, but at the time I wasn't thinking that way -- It's hard to think in a fully structured fashion when you go through a bout of depression.

Again, I don't think movies should be compared to games too much. Sure, they use similar mechanics at some points, but interactivity is what separate them appart so much. In other words- what work in movies won't necessarily work in games and vice versa.

You misunderstand my point here -- I'm using the film industry as a parallel to the gaming industry to show how sometimes people are not ready to accept a certain creative enterprise.

But I also disagree with the statement.

But if interactivity is the only thing that separates films and games, then the usage of narrative structures (and the deconstruction of such) can transpose between both mediums.

And narrative structure is important in adventure games, because (like your example of interaction separating games from film) narrative structure separates adventures (and not a lessor extent RPGs) from other games -- an adventure game needs a plot whereas other games do not (Space Invaders? Doom? Command and Conquer? You don't really need a plot for these games!)

And thus is why I think we can make many comparisions between films and games -- because they share similar techniques in narrative.

This was the theory I divised some time ago:

An adventure game needs two main things to be an adventure:

1. Interactivity
2. Narrative

Everything else is secondary (character, atmosphere, etc) to these two things -- though they do make the game more enjoyable.

Taking interativity from film is useless because they have no interactivity, as you demonstrate.

However, taking gaming narrative from film narrative techniques is useful, as is borrowing from books and plays.

Therefore, what will work in movies will work in an adventure game.

That's my theory.

And I can provide several examples of possible film to game narrative adaptations if you like (And they range from Pulp Ficition, Fargo, Memento, Gosford Park, etc).

Here's a question for you regarding film to game theories:

Play Grim Fandango and ask whether you shouldn't compare games to films even though:

a) The game is divided into a four-act structure like most Hollywood films (and contains similar plot points as most Hollywood films)
b) It borrows the basic archetypes of films (the hero, the villian, the sidekick, and the love interest)
c) It also uses film noir techniques in the mise-en-scene of certain scenes.
d) And it manages to spoof several films such as Casablanca, On The Waterfront, and Touch of Evil to name a few?

Sure, the only thing separating games and film is interactivity -- but if you remove the interactiviy from an adventure game, you have a film remaining.

Thus, games and film are very comparable.

This will all be in the adventure game story tutorial I'm writing.  

P.S. I hope you come back soon -- I find this discussion very interesting (In fact, I haven't enjoyed a discussion on adventure games this much for a long time).