3D Backgrounds - Need input

[TurtaL]

I've been entertaining the idea of creating an adventure game using 3D backgrounds for a while, and I finally tried it out. Using Valve Hammer Editor, I created a sample map of a loft apartment.  If it turns out nicely, I might use it to create a demo game. If do decide to make a full adventure game, however, I will create original textures.  I need some input regarding two issues.

Screenshots available here.

I should note that these screenshots are not specifically for use as backgrounds, and are designed to show the area of the map.

1) What type of sprites would best complement this background? (cartoony, realistic, etc)
2) How do I achieve the "LucasArts" feel? In other words, which types of camera angles or perspectives would work best?

Any other suggestions are welcome also

[Gilbert]

They look good , but they're way too dark with my monitor setting, look a bit like the Bio Hazard backgrounds.
1. I'll say realistic, considering the seemingly dark atmosphere and details of the current samples.
2. Sorry but I can't think of comments on this one.

[Raider]

They look like CS maps a bit, I don't know about your story but as said before they are very dark. Think about lighting the up a bit.
Also it might be hard to keep the perspective consistant throughout all of your backgrounds that you are going to do. What I mean is that you need to keep the style consistant and that might prove difficult because you have many different 'shots' of the same room and that will be hard to not make mistakes with the layout, eg your couch may look wider in one shot than in another, or a wall might look like it's on more of an angle in one shot than in another.
Just a thought, but it looks really good! I will watch the demos or completed games for your work.

- Raider

[Das Plans]

Wow, this loft looks like the ultimate bachelor paradise. One big room, stereo, big screen TV, billard table with a booze poster on the wall... This is exactly what I'm looking for - if only I could afford it.
However, I think, those backgrounds look really good. They could use a tad more light, and everything's fine. But using these, you should definetly stick to realistic characters.

[Isegrim]

Some general mumblings first:
This is all very, very well done, although I have one minor complaint: the texture you have used for the ceiling does IMO not fit in. The overall scene is much to tidy to have such a run-down ceiling. If this is intentional however, I suggest using a larger texture that does not repeat so often...
Another thing: I can't quite figure out what is in the swimming pool...

And now to your questions:
I think that realistic BGs demand realistic characters. Just look at Monkey Island:
Part 1 had quite realistic looking BGs and so the characters were not very cartoony.
Part 2 became cartoonier and so some of the characters began to look goofier, too
Part 3 then went far beyond realsim with the BGs and so the characters changed accordingly.

I guess the best characters to fit in that kind of scenes would look somewhat like HL or CS models...

About the "Lucas Arts feel" I'd say that it's hard to achieve with that kind of BG, since all the classic Lucas games had pixel BGs... but adventure-technical I'd say wide but not too wide opening angles and rather unspectacular (flat) perspectives allow the characters to fit in best.

[James Kay]

I agree with Isegrim. You can't have your cake and eat it. Ie. you can't have nice 3D backgrounds and cartoony Lucasarts style characters and expect to have a well gelled whole.

On the 3D: Nice, but....

They do look like HalfLife engine renders, yes. Haven't used that editor myself, but can you export geometry and render it in a rendering package? This may give better lughting and shadow effects. Also, it all looks too clean.

The wall texture is too obviously tiled. This is especially visible in the wide shots.

Outside, your skybox is too small so that the skyscrapers look too skewed and unrealistic.


If you're desperate to make a cartoony game, why not use renders like these as guides for more cartoony pixelart you draw over the top? That could work really nicely!
Otherwise, like stated above, go for (semi-)realistic characters and try to stick to straight angels (not tilted up or down) to keep it easy to integrate character and background.

[Scummbuddy]

May I say that the pool table and the plants need some more refinement to have them fit in with the rest of the really beautifully made house.
Yeah, they're nice, but with a little more, or even over-lapping of the plants to add thickness to them, or something... just a bit to flat in my opinion.  And the pool table.. i gues just check this out.

http://www.agsforums.com/yabb/index.php?topic=16433.0

[TurtaL]

First of all, I appreciate your comments.

Gilbot: It IS too dark, and I think any 2D sprite on the BG would stand out too much.

Raider: Thanks for the comments...I'm still thinking about how I am going to do the perspective.

Herr Stein: Yup, the main character is supposed to be a bachelor. I didn't make it TOO obvious did I?

Isegrim: You are right. I've even been looking at some other adventure games that use 3D (Gabriel Knight3, Monkey Island4) and I've realized that it's going to be very tough to create sprites that mesh with the deep background. Using HL models would probably look the best, but that would require me to make an HL mod for it to look really good. But I'm too nostalgic to do that. And the "pool" is actually a jacuzzi

James K: I agree about the wall texture; it looks horrendous. There's nothing I can do about the skybox unfortunately. Also, I think that using the renders as a guide for 2D art is a great suggestion. I would still have the perspective problems, however. I'll definitely think on it.

Scummbuddy: The pool table looks bad because I created the textures for it. And I'm horrible. For me to get that kind of detail of the table in that other post, I'd have to import a model because the editor doesn't allow me to get that detailed. Another drawback of using Valve Hammer Editor I guess.

I've come to a few conclusions, based on your comments.

1) If I'm going to leave the backgrounds in 3D, I'm going to have to pick very flat areas. This might present a problem, because the field of view of the camera in HL is not very wide (at least compared to the scale which I used). This screenshot might be usable, for instance. I may have to redo a bunch of areas, but thats fine. I could even create a separate map file for each room, ensuring that I don't go too deep with the perspective.

2) I could leave the backgrounds how they are, and use a first person view for the game (Myst?). I don't really like this idea, but it would work.

I'm going to see if I can take some better screenshots, in the mean time keep the ideas flowing

[Ali]

If these were for a game, I'd suggest using film posters from one era specificallt - maybe the 60s based on the look of the building. I think that would create a better atmosphere - at the moment it looks like a film student lives there (I'm a film student, I know this to be true).

There used to be a great tutorial for 3D lucas-style bgs at this address, but it seems to have gone.

http://hem.passagen.se/dh1998/3d/journey_tut/journey_tut_1.html

Curses.

[Neutron]

Looks great man.  I am also a 3D as well as 2D artist.  Perhaps we can at some point work on a project.  I don't know much about hammer editor, but it looks like it gives good results.  You may want to give blender a whirl if you haven't used it in awhile,...it now has on board raytracing among other things.  some really spiffy mesh editing tools too.

[TurtaL]

If it exports .mdl files, I will be all over itÃ,  Ã, 

[Neutron]

i don't know of that format, but it exports:
VRML 1.0
DXF
Videoscape
STL
AC3D
Cal3D
DirectX
DirectX8
.lwo
.bvh
.ndo
.off
.radio
.raw
.cob
.wrl
.obj
and even .wings

[Pft!]

If these were for a game, I'd suggest using film posters from one era specificallt - maybe the 60s based on the look of the building. I think that would create a better atmosphere - at the moment it looks like a film student lives there (I'm a film student, I know this to be true).

There used to be a great tutorial for 3D lucas-style bgs at this address, but it seems to have gone.

http://hem.passagen.se/dh1998/3d/journey_tut/journey_tut_1.html

Curses.

Is this the one? :

[Scummbuddy]

i have a copy of that tutorial on my computer if needed.

[Chicky]

Turtal, they're lovely, f'kin lovely. Would really suit an earie noir type game.

[cpage]

scummbuddy can you send it to me?

chris@whybothermusic.com

please thanks

[Scummbuddy]

I'll just put up a link to it here. Later it may be moved to a new spot on a future website of mine.

3D Tutorial- 1.12 MB

Now send me money for backing up the entire internet on my hard drive. 

[TurtaL]

Cool tutorial! If only I knew 3DSmax... 


Anyway, I added a sprite to my background.
The sprite seems a little bit brighter than the BG, but I'm not sure if the difference is worth giving up my sinister looking lighting...what do you guys think?

The sprite is a HL model with a skin I modified. I used a model viewer to capture each individual frame of animation, and turned those into sprites. I wish I could draw my character like that from scratch  :o

[cpage]

I cant open it
can someone convert it to HTML?

[James Kay]

Doesn't look to bad, actually. I'd say make the character much bigger - it seems disproportionally small right now.
You could also add a simple shadow under his feet - just a vague blurred oval. If you're using 32-bit graphics, make it 50% transparent (and part of the character sprite. It should help cement him to the floor.

But you see already you'll need to have fairly straight camera views. No tilting....