Maniac Mansion characters in DOTT style

[Tiki]

Mats: Your latest edit still doesn't show this guy's character.  When I look at him, I don't see a jock.  I see an average teenager with a mullet of some sort.  He doesn't look buff, he doesn't really look strong at all.  I don't associate any type of person with what I see.   BB's edit manages to convey a high school jock without using extreme physical fitness.  You should really worry about refining his character.  I really dig Ian's edit, you should follow it more closely, or at least observe more of what he and loominous are saying.

[Mats Berglinn]

I'm not sure if you're right about Dave. I have a feeling that Big Bro's version is a bit too much. Compaired with original Dave his a little way too different. Compaired DOTT Bernard with MM Bernard, the have different shape, differnt pose and added stuff but they're still very similiar.

Anyway, I redesigned Big Bro's version to make him a little more similiar to MM Dave (the colors, the nose, the eyes and the clothes) but kept the elements in the original. The reason to do that is that (like I said dozens of times before) he is not only a football player but is also a popular guy who charms every teenager in school (Tiki, they were NOT high school students but college students) and that what's I saw in the original Dave. The way Big Bro used his eyes and nose in a way that didn't make him seem like a "love target".



Please, can someone say that this one is good because I'm sick of hearing complaitments all the time (I know it's the Critic's lounge but it can't be THAT bad?).

[Misj']

Maybe usefull to some of us (that'll be me) to compare the two styles...simply as a reference.

Characters from Maniac Mansion
http://members.fortunecity.com/harang/characters.html

Characters from Day of the Tentacle
http://isharlasoluce.chez.tiscali.fr/Day_of_The_Tentacle/Dott_mega_dossier3.php3

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As for the goofyness of BB's sprite; I think if the chin were slightly rounder (without an overhanging lower lip/chin), the character would be less - well - dumb. Also a thing I personally dislike about BB's Dave is his nose. It's more of less the same nose as Ozwalled used for his Syd-edit...and it reminds me a little too much of mr. Larry Laffer. That would also explain the goofy look, for while it's a very good noise to have when you're wearing a leisure suit, pretending to be cool, while chasing women way out of your leage...I think Dave's nose should be less exaggerated (ie. slightly smaller, like the one in Mats' Dave).

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Remarks about your latest edit:
1. I too am not certain about the eyes (maybe it's the eyebrows; could you remove the pixels closest to the nose. I think that would help.)
2. I still think the chin/lower lip should not be overhanging
3. The clothing little (but not too much) more detail...maybe some folds at the armbends; that kind of stuff.
4. I do like your nose much better than BB's 'love target'.
5. I prefer your jacket ofer BB's. I thought in the original it was made from denim (like his jeans) rather than being his 'college labeled football jacket'.
6. I think his smile is too big. Someone just kidnapped his girlfriend...if that made him this happy he really shouldn't be trying to get her back
7. Overall I think it looks quite nice...I could be looking at him for most of a game; and that is - being based on two gamestyles - also very important.

After reading my first three comments I decided to change about sixteen (or so) pixels:

[loominous]

I hope you don't take this the wrong way, but I think the reason why you seem frustrated is because you don't really grasp how big a difference there is between your sprites and the DOTT/bb's sprite.

We're all more or less blind to our own shortcomings in these matters and and it takes the eye of an artist beyond our skill to see just how flawed our work is. When you look at BB's sprite you may not see much difference between it and your own but when I see it, they're miles apart.

And I'm not talking about the character in question which may not fit your idea at all, it's a matter of understanding form/volume and posture which displays itself clearly in the sprites. When I look at BB's character I see a three dimensional character with a personality. When I look at yours I see , and I hope you don't get too affronted by this, an advanced, generic stick figure.

This isn't a matter of talent, BB has simply gained more skill by extensive practise and you'll be able to reach that level the same way. I think you need to acknowledge this and focus on the basics, utilizing the manikin method I showed some post ago. This is the same technique professional animators use so it's not a beginner's method, and will gradually make you understand form/volume, posture and with this how to shade convincingly.

I think it would be best if you were to post a couple of hi-res manikin sketches of the characters instead of these pixel versions. Good sprites, as backgrounds, usually start with solid sketches, and if they work in as sketches they'll should turn out well in pixels.

About the face of Dave, here's a more handsome version. I urge you to work out your own version from scratch:



Edit: I'd also urge you not to use BB's sprite with a modified face.

[Haddas]

It's very nice. Awesome improvement my friend. This qould be a quite acceptable sprite you have there. Good work. This is just nit-picking, don't take it too seriously, but there's some edges that could maybe be made a little smoother and also the crotch looks a bit big... by which i mean the shading is quite thick and it looks weird even though that might be how it would look. Conratulations and nice work on those hands, buddy.

[Shane 'ProgZmax' Stevens]

If you look closely at the sprite of bernard, the approach BB took to the linework is very similar already (as was mine, very loose stance).  I don't see any need for alteration.  Matts, my advice is either to listen to what Loominous has said, stop working on updated MM characters, or stop using the critics lounge for them.  It seems clear to me that you are determined to have them look the way 'you' think the DOTT style appears, which just isn't the same as it appears to the rest of us.  Here are some specific tips that you should follow when emulating the style:

1.  Curved stance.  Look at how every single character in DOTT stands, not a one of them has a good posture.  Either they lean too far one way or are bent over.  The key here is exaggeration.

2.  The arms tend to be smaller in width than the hands, and the arms are typically slightly longer than normal.

3.  Heads are disproportionately large to exaggerate facial expressions. 

4.  Ears tend to be large (this is a carry over from the original MM if you look at the sprites).

5.  The characters have to evoke a personality when looked at.  As in the case of the razor sprite I did, you saw fear.  When you look at Laverne you think crazy, with Hoagie you think fat dumb guy.  They need to be designed over the top so these stereotypes are immediate.

6.  Lighten up and remember you posted this work to the critics lounge for help.  If you didn't want help you wouldn't be posting here.

Hope this helps.

[Floskfinger]

In my opinion DOTT seem to always bring out the ugliness in people. Big ugly noses, Huge ears, fat and other stuff.

[Snarky]

I hope you don't take this the wrong way, but I think the reason why you seem frustrated is because you don't really grasp how big a difference there is between your sprites and the DOTT/bb's sprite.

We're all more or less blind to our own shortcomings in these matters and and it takes the eye of an artist beyond our skill to see just how flawed our work is. When you look at BB's sprite you may not see much difference between it and your own but when I see it, they're miles apart.

About the face of Dave, here's a more handsome version. I urge you to work out your own version from scratch:



Edit: I'd also urge you not to use BB's sprite with a modified face.

Loominous, I think you give excellent advice, and it's certainly something I'll keep in mind for myself. However, I also think that Mats is right that BigBrother's sprite is not in the DOTT style (excellent as it is in other respects). If I were to hazard a guess, I might predict that he'll like your edit a lot more than BB's original sprite. Certainly in my eyes it comes closer to capturing the original Dave, even if it may not be quite in DOTT style.

In my opinion DOTT seem to always bring out the ugliness in people. Big ugly noses, Huge ears, fat and other stuff.

Yeah, you definitely have a point. It's probably related to the reason why they chose to avoid the prettier characters from MM, and only reuse the freaks and geeks. Which raises the issue: does a MM remake with DOTT-style graphics even make sense?

[Misj']

.... However, I also think that Mats is right that BigBrother's sprite is not in the DOTT style (excellent as it is in other respects). If I were to hazard a guess, I might predict that he'll like your edit a lot more than BB's original sprite. Certainly in my eyes it comes closer to capturing the original Dave, even if it may not be quite in DOTT style.

I have to agree with Snarky here. BB's Dave is very nice, and Loominous' edit of the face gives Dave great character...but neither of them are in DOTT style. On the other hand, I never understood why everyone always wants to draw in DOTT or MI3 style. I guess this is one of those moments when that old saying applies: Amateurs imitate, professionals steal. (maybe that's why I don't do real paintovers...)

So just to give you some ideas for MM-Cartoonstyle (rather than DOTT-style) character (re)design some quick and dirty lines:


Ps. no, I don't think Syd - or anyone else for that matter - should smoke...but when drawing his stance, it kinda happened

Pps. By all means, do draw your own. Drawing such lines (on paper) should not take more than a few minutes per character. But it's in these few minutes when you start to learn everything there is to know about him or her.

[Ozwalled]

Just to make you feel better, I was SO close to having Syd smoking too. I guess it actually is cool. x_X

[Mats Berglinn]

On the other hand, I never understood why everyone always wants to draw in DOTT or MI3 style.

I believe that most people like those styles better than the very old school people graphics.

6.  Lighten up and remember you posted this work to the critics lounge for help.  If you didn't want help you wouldn't be posting here.

Sure I need you guys help. It's just that I didn't thought that it would take this long time to get anywhere.

Misj': Thanks for the advice and the sketch. I'll try to do it that way and see if it's getting closer to the DOTT style. By the way, why do you draw Chuck the Plant? He/it is not much of a character and is more part of the background. Also, Wendy's last name is Wells, if you didn't knew (or forgotten).

Floskfinger: Maybe not for all characters. Look at Harold, he is a beautiful guy with a slight arront look.

[Misj']

I believe that most people like those styles better than the very old school people graphics.

Looks matter - I will be the first to agree - and those cartoony styles look much better than the blocks. But the trick is to develop your own style (which may have it's roots in DOTT, MI3, or Garfield for that matter). Because if you don't, then you and your creativity are limited by boundaries. I'll try to explain (although I think you already understand) with a stupid example:

Image the guys working on DOTT decided never to add any paintings to the wall...if you then were to draw a DOTT background with a cute picture of Max hanging on the wall, you'd be (stricktly speaking) breaking the boundaries of the style. Even if such an addition were perfect, and would make the difference between boring and great. The boundaries are created by what's already in there...not by what might be in there (and people will complain that it is not really DOTT).

As a result, it is - still stricktly speaking - impossible to add Dave, Syd or the green meteor police thingy guy without breaking (or at least bending) the boundaries of the style created by someone else for DOTT. There is no true reference of what they should look like. All we know is that they are cartoony, and - in a weird way - more simple (in shape) than their MM counterparts (just look at the MM- and DOTT-tentacles). But we all have our own interpretation of what the boundaries really are, and thus, of what the final image should look like (to us).

By the way, why do you draw Chuck the Plant? He/it is not much of a character and is more part of the background.

Blame it on the dayjob, I'm a biologist. - No, actually, that has nothing to do with it (I don't work with plants). I just happened to like sketching Chuck.

[Mats Berglinn]

I understand what you mean. Many of the characters doesn't look the same but Fred, Zed and Red Edison, Edna and Zedna, Ed and Ved, All the Tentacles and also Dwayne and John Hancock are very similiar to each other. Of course the Edisons are suppoused to be similiar becuase it's a family thing but maybe not the others.

I'm not sure if I would agree with you can't break the style... I mean, just because some character didn't appear in DOTT, doesn't mean that if you're doing, say, a DOTT-style version of MM or a DOTT sequel and put in characters in the "DOTT style" and it's out of place. It's couldn't work if you have to be that picky. You shouldn't back off just because it's really hard to do it. At least I won't give up that easily.

Also I noticed this pic of the Meteor Police and the Meteor on Scummbuddy's Maniac Zomibies site:



I think that this is very, very, very close to DOTT style and therefore should be count as DOTT style. Don't you guys agree?

[Mr Flibble]

Is 'DOTT style' suddenly a byword for cartoony?

Awesome work by the way Misj'.

[mätzyboy]

I think that this is very, very, very close to DOTT style and therefore should be count as DOTT style. Don't you guys agree?

Absolutely not! The picture depicts elements from the Maniac Mansion series, but in a different style than any of the two games. A nice style, indeed, but nothing like Day of the tentacle.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with doing the Maniac Mansion characters in Mats Berglinn's style. But if you ask for critizism about it as DOTT style, and you ask for help in the Critics lounge, you really shouldn't just oppose all critics, except minor details that you nitpick about (for example eyes), and refuse to rework it. I've seen lots of nice helpful comments in this thread, heck people even helped you by showing ideas about how to sketch the characters, but all you do is say: 'No, I don't think so. My style is very close to DOTT style as it is. I'll change this ear/nose/eye/(other minor detail of your choice).' I find this almost rude to the people offering their help.

I say: Go for your style, and accept it to be yours, or start reworking and show some spirit of effort!

Sorry if you feel as if I flame you, it's not meant as that. But I think you should reconsider your goal. Is it really DOTT style, or the just as acceptable Mats Berglinn style you are going for?

Cheers!

Edit: I was referring to the characters you had presented earlier, not the picture from Scumbuddy's site. And as I said, I think you style is cool. If you want to develop a more DOTTish style, go ahead! It will take time though! Sorry if you found me harsh!

[Mats Berglinn]

Ok, ok, stop nagging, Mätzyboy! I will start from scratch! I'm sorry for what I've done! I mean it. I'm just trying to make something that is in that style but it's much harder than I thought would be. I said I appreciate the sketches and advices.

Besides, that picture ISN'T mine. I showed it as an example of what I thought was that style. Man, how wrong I was.

[Snarky]

My, you are prickly, aren't you? Shouting at people to "stop nagging" isn't likely to encourage people to help you.

See, I think part of the problem is that you simply don't have enough skill yet to mimic the DOTT style. I don't mean this as an insult. I think your sprites are pretty good for an amateur game, and you've shown tremendous improvement from the first version to the later ones. (And when you compare them to the characters in your signature, it's obvious that you've come a very long way.) However, you are still not close to being as good as the artists who worked on DOTT. No one would expect you to be, those people were some of the most talented, experienced professionals in the business.

You don't have to be fully equal to the original to resemble the same style. Cirque de Zale has Monkey Island-style graphics even if they're not quite as good. But Kinoko is working on a level where she can approach the look of the original. You, at the moment, are not.

All this is to say that if you really want to create characters in DOTT style, it's not going to be easy. This thread is just the beginning, there is much more hard work ahead of you. You'll get there in the end, but you need a lot more patience and tolerance for frustration than you've shown so far.

Alternatively, you can accept that making it in DOTT style is just too difficult, and settle for making it in your own style. Then you can focus on improving that style. Whichever option you choose, you should listen to the great advice you've been getting from loominous, ProgZmax, Big Brother, Misj' and others, and try the exercises they've suggested. It will improve your work either way.

I admire your enthusiasm and your willingness to keep working on it. Persevere, and you will be a great artist.

[Mats Berglinn]

Yeah, I understand, Snarky. I'm very sorry I said "stop nagging", I was just frustrated and a little bit bitter but I'm okay now.

I wasn't actually going to have the DOTT style for my current game Caribbean Mysteries. Like I said before it's more to test my skills but maybe, just maybe it could be useful for future projects. Thanks for the belief that I may improve in the future and I'm going to work hard in order to do it. Like I said earlier I won't give up on it but I'll take it a bit easy for now, so I can focus on my current project.

[Helm]

Please, can someone say that this one is good because I'm sick of hearing complaitments all the time (I know it's the Critic's lounge but it can't be THAT bad?).

Most of the constructive stuff has been covered by loominus' excellent posts. Without a VERY VERY ADVANCED understanding of all the underlying aspects of cartoon drawing, you have no chance to emulate the DOTT style (sic). It will not come through trial and error, at least, not in due time, and never assuming an essential understanding of this type of art. At best just by looking at DOTT graphics the best to expect is marginal apings. I urge you to buy the Loomis book or in fact, any other beginner cartoon-type art book you can find, and forget the shortcuts because they do not exist. Most of the people that just decoded various aspects of art like contrapost, curve against line, curve against inverted curve etc etc etc just by LOOKING at art and not actively STUDYING it, are very very talented. You are not talented in art. And while your art might not be THAT bad, comparing it to DOTT would call for protest, naturally. I suggest you either go 'back to school' (this is not that school) so to speak in the arts, or aim for something significantly lower than DOTT. It's not every amateur adventure game that has to mimic, or ape, commercial graphics of old.

And a final note: once again, you fail to be courteous to people trying to help you here. Maybe you should reconsider your attitude.

[Krysis]

I've allways wanted to see how all the MM characters would look in DOTTA way. So when I saw this topic I've red it carefully and I think there is one thing that people should know - if you wanna draw really great, learn to draw first.Ã, This doesnt happen fast and it aint easy but some people are addicted to it (like me!). And u'll never stop learning, couse u can allways make your work better. Allways listen to the critics couse thats the way to evolve. Thats my advise for anyone who wants to draw.

So anyway, here is my version of Dave. I just changed most of the body couse he looked too buff in the previous ones. But the face I couldnt touch. It is just too good for me to mess with. I know he doesnt look too cartoony but after all he is the main character. The good guy, the hero, the teen. U can see all this in it I think. Thats why I like him sooo much looking like this:

     
And as you see I've made a version of the alien cop, couse I had some time to waste.