One-point perspective issue - Medieval Town Scene

[Corby]

I thought it'd be fun to draw an exterior scene using one-point perspective instead of two-point. Am I just seeing things, or is the right side of the main building look out of perspective? I seems like it should come to the left a bit more, but yet it stills lines up with the vanishing point.




(apologies for the manual re-sizing)

Thanks!

[Snarky]

I think the reason it looks weird is that you should apply more foreshortening and sense that we're seeing it from the side. For example, we should see more of the sides of the beams on the second floor; currently they look just like the ones viewed straight on. I feel like we should also be able to see more of the eaves if the roof matches the one next to it - but it's a bit confusing because surely the building extends behind; it's not just two separate buildings that touch at the corner?

Compress the sign significantly (it should be maybe half as thin), and maybe cheat the perspective slightly there so the lower edge angles visibly less than the upper.

I love the look of the background and would steal your technique for stone and woodwork in a second, if I could.

[Anian]

Yeah, you followed perspective lines, but not took into account some things.

Foreshortening, as Snarky suggested, for the right part of the image, there should just be more stuff there or make it shorter.
But in general stuff, while being in perspective, is not the right size or deosn't look the right size, you made the square look small by scale relations but perspective kind of suggest it is bigger - for instance the door is very big if it's supposed to be scaled down because it's behind and als it's kind of narrow to be having to wings, and aalso the window on the far left is the same size as the ones on the right building, which just wouldn't happen, unless it's a small square...this is not a big issue though and just fixing the foreshortening issue should make it look ok.

I am assuming that the bottom of the image is not finished yet, because it looks reaaally weird right now

[Corby]

Thanks for the advice. I'm not sure if I even needed the right building jutting out. Instead, I think widening the main building looks better.

The building on the far right is now a bit behind the main building, and a pine tree obscures it.

I love the look of the background and would steal your technique for stone and woodwork in a second, if I could.

Thanks!

I am assuming that the bottom of the image is not finished yet, because it looks reaaally weird right now

That part is supposed to represent a city wall. The exit to the south (when the gate is open) leads out of the city. I'm not too sure what to with it at this point.

Other than that, I guess my other concern is whether the cobblestone looks alright?

[Hudders]

Those stones are way too big to be cobbles.

[InCreator]

I so much like first image more with barrels and L-house. It felt way cozier and detailed. Also, somewhat closed area feels more like a town. And - house on second image feels... mirrored, too symmetrical. Even though tree balances much-needed green tones in image.

You can draw alright but don't know a simple rule: if it's good enough, nobody gives a two shits about perspective. Most important about any picture is that it's interesting and pretty.


What I'd do -- I'd keep the house of first image, BUT extend a pole from rightmost building and remake tavern sign so it would face directly player. Right now it feels like piece of the wall due perspective and I noticed that it's a sign long after first impressions of the image...



Like this. Add enough vibrant colors and detail to the sign, and nobody even notices the square up there. It's all about controlling the eye and keeping it on nicest parts of image.
Also I'd remove some snow (bluish lines) to make it feel more like it's much-used road and continues right. And maybe even use a tiny bit of that tree on far right edge.

[theo]

One point perspective is great when your vanishing point is relatively close to the center of the image. It is an ok cheat since horizontal lines in such scenes usually pretty much line up paralell to one another. In this case however your vanishing point is too far from the center for this trick to fool the eye. Thus your perspective looks broken. I recommend solving this by either moving your vanishing point to the center, or better yet, add another vanishing point.

[Snarky]

To anian's point, I think the three barrels are one of those things that add to the sense that it's a flat wall, because they couldn't be stacked like that against a wall facing away from us: the most distant one appears to be up against the wall, but then there's another one to its right. The arrangement only makes sense if they're stacked against a wall facing us, like in your second version.

Also, the fact that the lower edge of the wall is completely obscured (up to a level parallel to the lower edge of the far wall) makes it very easy to misinterpret the perspective.

While I think the second version is fine as well, I think it would be interesting to see you fix the problems rather than just give up. I disagree with theo ( :o ) that the perspective can't work. It's not that far away from the vanishing point.

[theo]

I disagree with theo ( :o ) that the perspective can't work. It's not that far away from the vanishing point.

I wasn't saying it can't work as a backdrop, I was explaining why the perspective on the wall looked off, even though he seemingly followed the rules of one-point perspective. Which was, after all, what he asked about. Anyhow, I'm a hard-line perspective-nazi so most of my rantings on this topic should be read with this in mind  8)

[Snarky]

Sorry to keep disagreeing, but I really don't think it's due to one-point perspective (even if he added another vanishing point, it still wouldn't change the perspective on this wall, after all). I think it has to do with the things already mentioned: lack of foreshortening, scaling and "seeing things from the side" (including the beams and the stones in the wall), counterintuitive geometry/architecture, inconsistent depth cues from other objects in the scene, obscuring the bottom edge of the wall at the continuation of the line from the other wall, things that aren't to scale, and (a point which I think hasn't been mentioned yet) flat lighting/shading that doesn't distinguish the two walls. Lots of small factors, rather than one big one, in other words.

[theo]

(even if he added another vanishing point, it still wouldn't change the perspective on this wall, after all).

Ah, but this is where you misunderstand the problem. The issue lies not with the wall to the right, but with all the other walls in direct 90 degree angle to that wall. Since these other walls are all parallel and horizontal on screen instead of vanishing of to their own vanishing point, the wall to the right sticks out as looking awkward and is perceived as being bonkers perspective-wise, when in fact there is nothing wrong with that particular wall at all. Perspective just, like hue, value, saturation, are all relative things in a piece of art and are because of this totally dependent on how they are being handled not only on the object you are painting, but also the objects surrounding it.

Other than this issue (where we are going to have to agree to disagree), I'd agree with most of your points, specifically the shading one. Making sure the two walls have different shading is crucial no matter how "correct" your perspective is.

Some additional thoughts on one-point in AG's:

One point perspective should in my eyes be used restrictively and only when it serves a compositional purpose, such as leading the eye down a corridor. One-point is however incredibly common in AG's, and for a good reason; due to the horizontal nature of such scenes, they create good, easy to read and control "gaming environments" when used correctly. I just don't like them, from an artistic standpoint, Since they tend to screw up the composition with all their nasty parallel lines, yuck. 

[Corby]

Thanks Theo, Snarky, InCreator, Anian for the helpful advice.  I'll have a new version soon.

@Hudders:

Yeah, I might just end up trying a different type of road.

@Theo:

I think I understand! One-point becomes a bit distorted if it's too far from the vanishing point; especially in this case where mine is located way to the left.

So, adding another vanishing point to get rid of the 90 degree line would help? Or is creating the far right building in another one-point allowed?  




@Snarky:

I think it would be interesting to see you fix the problems rather than just give up.

I think I could fix it easily, but the main building really is too squished together. The interior is quite spacious, and I think it needs that extra width to avoid looking too strange. The fore-shortening idea would probably be fine too.

[Uhfgood]

Regardless of any problems the OP has and wants critiqued this is an excellent background.  Do you have any tutorials on how you make your backgrounds?

[Ali]

I do think Snarky's right that the problem is caused by lack of foreshortening on the bricks, and a few bits of visual confusion where the wooden beams meet. Here's a rough paintover which is a bit less jarring:



You might also consider darkening the foreground to create better separation.

I love the wintry feel of this!

[theo]

I do think Snarky's right that the problem is caused by lack of foreshortening on the bricks

Yes, it is perfectly true that this is part of the problem. And why do we get this problem? You guessed it - we are being trolled by awkwardly offset one point perspective, which renders the two walls way to similar to one another. Proper foreshortening is not voodoo, it is the results of obeying the laws of perspective. Of course, you can circumvent the problem with all sorts of tricks, but understanding the root of the issue will allow you to make even better fixes, and in the long run, perhaps avoid the problem all together.

Man, I realize I come off sounding like a gripey old d1ck here, but I can't help being passionate about perspective.  :

.. And composition for that matter.  8) Making it through both my fascist-design filters is no easy task. 

Corby:

I personally would have added another vanishing point somewhere roughly half a screen outside of your right edge, and used that to draw all the perspective for your walls that are now directly facing the camera. But that's me. Many people are content with having flat on walls in AG's, it is incredibly common, and I see no one except me complaining about it, so perhaps take it all with a pinch of salt, eh?

Having several sets of 90 degree vanishing points is definitely by the rules, but means that the objects you draw with one set of them will be rotated compared to objects drawn with the other set. The only thing you need to be sure of is to have an equal distance between your vanishing points, since this is the width of your camera lens, and the width of the lens, for obvious reasons, doesn't change on a per object basis.

Similarly, you can move vanishing points up and down or rotate them, and thus tilt/pitch the objects that you are drawing with those vanishing points.

I would like to add to my rant that I too like the look of your setting, It looks very promising and I look forward to seeing you finish it, no matter where you take it. 

[Corby]

Okay, here's round three. I tried a combination of everyone's advice.

Also, Thanks for the paint-over Ali, that really helped. I eventually went with Increator/Snarky/Anian's advice here.

Man, I realize I come off sounding like a gripey old d1ck here, but I can't help being passionate about perspective.

No problem, your advice is great. I'll remember it in later drawings.

Do you have any tutorials on how you make your backgrounds?

I did make one last year I believe, but it pretty much involved using the smudge tool, which isn't what I used for picture in this thread. For this one, I've been using only the brush tool for painting. I don't think I used the smudge tool at all.

Here is it anyways:

http://corbydesigns.com/meadow

But hey, if you wanted to know something in particular, I don't mind whipping something up.

EDIT:

Having several sets of 90 degree vanishing points is definitely by the rules, but means that the objects you draw with one set of them will be rotated compared to objects drawn with the other set.

Thanks! I was wondering if they would seem parallel still. That answers my question.

[InCreator]

Darken the stone wall on right. This sign is too much "where's waldo" right now, blending totally into building.
Lack of light contrast was first problem with Quest for Glory-like backgrounds and you, emulating Sierra-style, are doing exact same mistake.

I mean, look how cool and realistic archway looks compared to rest of the pic?