Princess Porphyra needs a makeover

[Baron]

Hey Critics,
          I remember posting here about 5 years ago when I was having problems perfecting a princess.  It would seem as if in the intervening years I have learned little about the female body (...er, drawing wise, that is).

          Here's the dame:

         I'm pretty much locked into her face and hair, and she can't really get any taller, but otherwise input is welcome.  She will probably require arms to be a different colour from her body for animation purposes, and the palette has to stay all purples (but not necessarily the same exact hues).  I'm not really all that happy with her posture, pose or garb, so suggestions on all of those would be most appreciated.

[Anian]

That's a nice clean style there and the face does look good. Your drawing does look like it's evolved since Charlie and Rose.
While the purples don't look bad, with the pants and her hair, there are a bit too many colors that are pretty simillar...maybe too similar.

What tone is the game, comedy? What is she like?
Is she supposed be a princess whos father's throne is overtaken by an evil man and at first she's spoiled and scared but through the story and adventure she becomes a better person and takes in distress that finds courage to defeat the evil overlord and take back her familiy's throne. Or is she a woman warrior Xena meets Robin Hood? ...that'll help set the pose - confident, scared etc.

Just on first view:
- her posture is not balanced, or rather she doesn't have the right weight distribution, try rotating the head a few degrees clockwise and pushing it to the right a bit, head has to be in a straight vertical line above the heels
- I can't really tell for sure but you should probably place the belt at the narrowest part of the figure, now the belt is below that narrowest point (people don't always wear it like that but I think it'll look more natural with fabrics), her elbows should be just a bit above the belt (they seem to be now) so when you move the belt up the elbow should move up a bit as well
- on a personal prefference, sort of, I think her breasts might be a tad too big, they seem to be more than half her head's size, which just seems heavy. Another argument to make them a bit smaller would be - her being a princess, usually they're young, so breasts might not have grown fully

[Alun]

There may be other issues as well, but the main thing that really jumps out at me is the arms.  That's... a really odd position for them.  It looks like she's... actually, I don't know what it looks like she's doing.  I really can't think offhand of any reasonable activity that would involve holding the arms like that.

Her right arm isn't so bad, actually, except that I'm not sure why it's bent at the elbow and she's raising her right hand like that.  But the left arm... it looks like it's twisted awkwardly backward at the shoulder.  Try putting the left arm more parallel to the right arm, instead of bending in the opposite direction.  (Also, I'd have both arms straighter and not bent so much at the elbow, but that's not as big an issue.)

The arms also seem a wee bit small to me... both a little too short, and a little too skinny.  But again, that's a lesser issue.  The awkward bent-back-ness of the left arm is definitely the thing that bothers me the most.

[Baron]

That's a nice clean style there and the face does look good. Your drawing does look like it's evolved since Charlie and Rose.

It's a fairly linear progression from Al-Quest 1 onwards.  Besieged almost drove me insane with all the bitmap sprite shading, so I've switched to vectors.

What tone is the game, comedy? What is she like?
Is she supposed be a princess whos father's throne is overtaken by an evil man and at first she's spoiled and scared but through the story and adventure she becomes a better person and takes in distress that finds courage to defeat the evil overlord and take back her familiy's throne. Or is she a woman warrior Xena meets Robin Hood? ...that'll help set the pose - confident, scared etc.

    Well, the plot may evolve a bit yet, but she was a spoiled brat princess who has been locked in a tower for ten years with nothing but books and a few enchanted inmates for company.  She has since resolved to mend her ways and devote herself to her oppressed people, if only she can escape.
    The game will have light humour, but will be more quest than comedy.
    Personality wise she will be sincere, but a little naive; determined, but also a little whimsical.  In terms of intellect she will be bookish, but not wordly.

Just on first view:
- her posture is not balanced, or rather she doesn't have the right weight distribution, try rotating the head a few degrees clockwise and pushing it to the right a bit, head has to be in a straight vertical line above the heels
- I can't really tell for sure but you should probably place the belt at the narrowest part of the figure, now the belt is below that narrowest point (people don't always wear it like that but I think it'll look more natural with fabrics), her elbows should be just a bit above the belt (they seem to be now) so when you move the belt up the elbow should move up a bit as well
- on a personal prefference, sort of, I think her breasts might be a tad too big, they seem to be more than half her head's size, which just seems heavy. Another argument to make them a bit smaller would be - her being a princess, usually they're young, so breasts might not have grown fully

    I'll try rotating the neck.  The problem with rotating the head is that it makes her eyes suddenly seem angry at this resolution (although the illusion disappears when she is magnified).  I definitely hear you on the balance front, and I'll try to reposition the whole thing.
    Truthfully, I drew her with smaller breasts originally but I thought she looked too boyish.  Perhaps there's a happy medium.

There may be other issues as well, but the main thing that really jumps out at me is the arms.  That's... a really odd position for them.  It looks like she's... actually, I don't know what it looks like she's doing.  I really can't think offhand of any reasonable activity that would involve holding the arms like that.

I was going for a whimsical look.  That, and all my characters hold there arms forward and I wanted her to stand out.  I agree it doesn't look right, though.

Her right arm isn't so bad, actually, except that I'm not sure why it's bent at the elbow and she's raising her right hand like that.  But the left arm... it looks like it's twisted awkwardly backward at the shoulder.  Try putting the left arm more parallel to the right arm, instead of bending in the opposite direction.  (Also, I'd have both arms straighter and not bent so much at the elbow, but that's not as big an issue.)

The arms also seem a wee bit small to me... both a little too short, and a little too skinny.  But again, that's a lesser issue.  The awkward bent-back-ness of the left arm is definitely the thing that bothers me the most.

Alright, the arm's gotta go.  I'm not sure I can make it any longer and still follow Anian's advice, but I will see about making it thicker.

Back in a bit with a redraw....

     

[Baron]

Alright, I've tried to follow most of your advice:
has evolved into

     The head is shifted to the right, the scarf slightly expanded to obscure the revealed juncture between her chest and arm, the breasts reduced, the belt moved and expanded, the "backwards" arm repositioned, the legs redrawn and repositioned to support her head, and her colours have been simplified.

      Right away I notice that the slit I've added to her overshirt is in the wrong spot -I'll get that next time. 
      The arm shade and leg shades also appear too close to each other now that I see her on the blue background.  The legs are the same shade as the hair now, but the arms can not be that colour because they will blend in too much when she reaches upward.  Any suggestions?
      I'm still not happy with her legs either -they seem unfeminine.  And her boots seem.... a little loud, although they match her cape and shirt now. 
      I realize with the vector art it's hard to do a paintover but a really crude dump fill in Paint would be appreciated if anyone has any colour ideas.  As for the legs.... can anyone recommend a good porn site where leggy women pose like fantasy heroines?  I'm only half-joking.

[Alun]

A vast improvement (in my opinion, anyway).  I think it's certainly good enough as is to use in a game now.  (Well, as you said, the slit's in the wrong place, but you said you're fixing that.)

That's not to say it's absolutely perfect, of course.  There's something that bothers me about the feet, but I can't quite put my finger on it... ah, I think I know what it is.  The left leg looks shorter than the right... the feet are at the same level, but the left leg is closer, so the left foot should be lower down.  Try moving the left foot down a little.. or rather, enlarging the left foot slightly, maybe, since I notice the top of the left boot is slightly lower than the right; it's just that the heels are at about the same level, and they shouldn't be.

But seriously, that's just a detail.  It's looking good now.

Oh, as far as the colors... hm.  I don't know; the closeness of the arm and leg colors doesn't really bother me that much, but I guess maybe it is a little odd that they're so close without being quite the same.  Right now they're both tending toward the red side of purple (if that makes any sense); maybe make one or the other more bluish instead?  But again, that's just a detail.

[Anian]

Hmm, now that I look at it, the belt/waist line, might be a tad too high looking now, it was rather late at night when I was writing that. Might have pulled you in a wrong direction.  Better find reffernces to be sure on what result you want.
In comicbooky fashion, the narrowest part of the torso is just below the chest cage, the widest is at the hips, of course clothes can change that appearance...it's not that big of a deal, so do what you find better suited.

Oh yeah, there was something I wanted to write about the legs but forgot in the last post - it seems the pants are rather tight on the body (cause there are no creases or bagginess) so you'll probably want to indicate where the knee is, by making that point narrower and the lines curving into it.
I'm asuming that her knee is above the end of boots (should be about half length of the leg). Again, it's a slight modification, if you go too much she might end up looking too muscular.
In any case, if you want more feminine legs, you might wanna start with wider hips - when drawing, women usually have hips slightly wider than shoulder or the same widht as them (I'm talking bone/sketching lines), while men have the hips the same or narrower than shoulders (depending on stylization). As it stands she looks fine now and any lack of curves can be ignored cause of the style/cchoice of clothes.

[Mad]

I am frankly astonished, that no one's mentioned the boobs until now, since they're quite... noticeable.

As they are now, the dress looks moulded to her upper body.
I'd do something like this:

[Anian]

I am frankly astonished, that no one's mentioned the boobs until now, since they're quite... noticeable.

...well that's probably cause a nicer word was used, like "breasts." Don't worry, you were probably distracted. 

[Mad]

I am frankly astonished, that no one's mentioned the boobs until now, since they're quite... noticeable.

...well that's probably cause a nicer word was used, like "breasts." Don't worry, you were probably distracted. 

Oops, right you are, but I just read the posts from Baron's last edit downwards!

...and I'm not too concerned about their size  , but I was more distracted by the clingy dress  !

[Igor Hardy]

Mad, by removing the boobs you took out the indie edginess out of the sprite.

Now it looks like **** Disney.

[Baron]

I'm not sure if Mad's boobs are Disneyfied, but they sure look bigger than mine.  Perhaps I should play with them some more to make them look a little more realistic behind her clothing.  Seriously, is anybody out there intimidated by the size (and obviousness) of her breasts?  Do you think it might be offensive and discourage some gamers from playing?  That might provide me more impetus for further editing up top.

In the mean time:


I've shrunk her belt slightly and lowered it slightly (not as much as in original), twisted her front foot to appear more in line with her shoulders, redrawn the legs (again, again....), elongated her overshirt, moved the slit further to the side, and tweaked the colours a bit.  I like that her legs have shape now, but they seem to make her look more powerful than elegant, which I'm uncertain of given her character.

Further opinions or pointers welcome.

[Alun]

I'm not sure if Mad's boobs are Disneyfied, but they sure look bigger than mine.  Perhaps I should play with them some more to make them look a little more realistic behind her clothing.  Seriously, is anybody out there intimidated by the size (and obviousness) of her breasts?  Do you think it might be offensive and discourage some gamers from playing?

Honestly, I didn't notice the breasts until Mad pointed them out, but now that he has pointed them out, yeah, I think he has a definite point.  The breasts as currently drawn aren't offensive (I don't think so, anyway); they're just unrealistic.  It has nothing to do with the size of the breasts -- it's that the fabric seems to be perfectly fit to her breasts, as if there are breast-sized and -shaped pockets in the front of her blouse (or overshirt, or whatever you want to call it).  Unless her clothing is skin-tight, the outline of the breasts shouldn't be that well defined.

[Anian]

Ok, Mad is right, her right (our left) breast is just to rounded up at the bottom, which would not indicate material like spandex but spandex with modification for the breasts, unfortunately clothes don't do that...damn you science! On that note her other breast should have a smaller line indicating her bottom.
What I mean is this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TEgEVSCu_AE (look at around 1 minute mark)

Why Mad's version seemed to have them larger was cause he sort of indicated like they were so wide that clothes wouldn't mold between them.

I like that her legs have shape now, but they seem to make her look more powerful than elegant, which I'm uncertain of given her character.

They should be progressivly slimmer (except at the calfes, that is main muscles)...actually, you asked for refference and porn like material with superhero postures, well, here's something better since it's already stylized and with superheroes:
(NOTICE: this is about 90% worksafe)
http://comicknockouts.tumblr.com/
http://fuckyeahgothamgirls.tumblr.com
Find the pose you like, I suggest you find something from Bruce Timm since he's style is mostly made up of simple lines, but gives great shape to the bodies.

[Baron]

Wow, that is better than porn.  And I don't say that as often as you might think.

Princess Version IV:

I think I'm getting quite close to a finished product here.  I've taken your (collective) advice and made the boobs (we're calling them that now) more natural in their clothed state, without compromising that edgy indie style (too much).  I've slimmed the legs, yet still given them shape.  I've also flared her... garment.  What is that anyway, in medieval speak?  A tunic?  Anyway, I've also moved the legs a little closer and reduced the boot flaring at the top, which I think was the source of a lot of my leg issues.  In general I'm very happy torso-up, and I'm fairly happy downstairs as well.  So this is your last chance to offer improvements before I move into animation.

Thanks for all the help so far!

[Ghost]

It looks very good! The changes are subtle, but really make this a neat-o character.

And I'm pretty sure it IS called a tunic.

[edit]
Wikipedia agrees.

[Ali]

I like the colour choices, and I think the latest version works except she seems to be about to pick something up which is puzzling her.

Here's a rough idea for a slightly more balanced, more relaxed pose.

[Anian]

Nice one Ali.

[Lad]

 I agree with Ali, I thought that the head was weirdly tilted before. Also I think that no clothing is like that under the breast(maybe only latex), Ali has soften it and I think it looks better now.

[Baron]

Thanks for visual input Ali.  I love the legs you gave her, although it looks like she's wearing ski boots.  The boob reduction registers as a little imbalanced to my eye, but I see where you're going.  Again, I shall return with another update.

[Spinning Batman Logo]

Edit: Alright, I'm back, and so is she:


The pose is more natural (not that it matters, she'll be moving all over the place), and her head is slightly more upright.  I've reduced and reshaped the boobs again.  The legs are slightly tweaked to avoid the appearance of straight lines.  I really tried to duplicate Ali's thinner legs, but I just couldn't get it to look right.  All in all I'm pretty happy, and I think this was a very worthwhile exercise.  The full evolution (without changing poses):


Thanks for all the help!  Wish me luck on my game.