Solo piano work

[Gregjazz]

Nobody showed up to my recording studio tutor session, so I took the time to make a quick solo piano recording.

http://www.gregjazz.com/upload/somedaymix2.mp3

Sorry about the shoddy playing, I was playing from memory a tune I haven't played in some time. What I'm working on is the piano tone in the mixing. Do you think the treble mic be panned to the right and the bass to the left (like from the pianist's view), or the opposite?

I was being a little experimental, so the piano is mic'd with two AKG C2000B (large diaphragm mics).

[Balin]

I like it! Kinda jazzy.

[auriond]

I like it, and the mixing sounds good the way it is - treble on the right and bass on the left, the way a piano player hears it. But then I play the piano so I'm used to hearing it like that.

The tune sounds really good - jazzy, as Balin said, rather like the kind of music I often hear at posh restaurants or something. But then your domain name is gregjazz so I guess we should expect no less.

[Gregjazz]

Yeah, Someday My Prince Will Come is popular as Jazz standard as well. (hence my Bill Evans imitations in my rendition--I love his version)

Any ideas for reharmonizations (or arrangement ideas) or whatnot are most welcome as well as mixing tips, too!

[zewb]

Not bad. I wish I could play that well...

[Nikolas]

Hi Greg!

Music sounds great, playing as well...

Now I have to admit that the piano sound is a little bit...thin for my taste...

I'm not sure on what to propose really, as I'm not into recording stuff... But I have heard that generally in a grand piano the sound actually concetrates in about 2-3 meter from it. The string sound comes off and hits the cover to go further on and then spread out. So it could be a good idea to add a 3rd mic? Don't know if you have on, or if it's worth it.

What piano make is it? Will you have chances to experiement more there?

It could be a little too much paning? I would prefer it more to the center... Either way you pan it will be fine. As there are two versions always, the pianists' and the audiences' one Your choice...

BUT all of the above are not certain, not by a mile, and are just suggestions or ideas... Not sure what else... Not my area definately...

[Tuomas]

I like the way it sounds, I always played this differently. I do though agree with Nik, it is probably a bit thin. I think it would benefit from lower tones played more often. But the Evans is clearly there

[Gregjazz]

Thanks for the suggestions, Nikolas!

I tend to mic close because I like to get seperation between the treble and bass mics, and no phase cancelation, since that can be a drag. I'll try mic'ing it farther away, though, and see if the tone improves.

One time I mic'd it with a treble and bass mic, and then added a single room mic farther away. I'll have to try it again, paying more attention to how much that improves the tone. One thing that I can think of is that sound travels at roughly a foot per millisecond. So if the mic is 5 feet away, that's 5 milliseconds of delay. Normally this is not an issue, but if you're close mic'ing it as well as having distance mics, it can take away the presence of the instrument.

But I'll definitely experiment some more. Thanks for the feedback!

EDIT: The piano is a Kawai baby grand. Normally I like Kawais, but this one has been played on a lot, so it's pretty bright (and some unisons out of tune).

[Nikolas]

About the 5 milisec thing... Indeed, but in a very theoritical sense what you get in your ear in a concert hall is a mash of 100s of different takes, reverbarations from anywhere... Reverb is exactly that. The same sound coming from 100s of different places and times (other wise it's just echo). (<- I think that this is the most awful explanation I could come up with, but anyways...  ).

The thing is that the human ear, won't mind a 5 msec difference. It's too small to matter. And even if it does make a slight difference, recording to different tracks, you can later move the far mic (which will definately have a predominant far sound, not the close sounds from the other two mics), 5 msec earlier.

For more presence, I'm pretty sure that some EQ can do the trick, but not sure how to do it myself (I'm rather bad at EQ...)

[Moresco]

This may sound really awful to your ears, but I did a quick mod to it.  Personally I think it sounds much more rich and exciting now, but that's just me.

tRP-somedaymix3

Anyway, I think something like that would really help your recording....

[Gregjazz]

First of all, thanks for taking the time to remix my recording.

Hmm, I tend to like a little less reverb on the piano for this particular style of music. Especially since the harmony moves fairly often. The reverb also is creating a strange resonance in the left channel around 400-600 hz. I mean, it sounds good if the piano was in a cathedral, but I'm trying to get more definition and only use reverb to smooth out the tone a little.

Lately I've been recording the piano with an AKG D112 (yes it really works!) on the bass and a AKG 451 (or sometimes a 414) on the treble. It sounds a lot better than the C2000Bs I was using. I'll post an MP3 when I get to it.

[Moresco]

Sweet, I'll look foward to hearing more of your piano playing.    As for the remix, well it was done really fast and just out of curiosity mainly.  I don't play piano, but I noticed it seemed rather dry to me.  I'm really digging it with the reverb, and I can't hear the things you mentioned. :/  One day I hope to learn how to play piano.

[Gregjazz]

The thing to keep in mind with reverb, of course, is that it acts to sustain tones. Therefore, with harmony that changes often, a lot of times you'll end up with sustained tones that might not fit with new harmony, creating possibly unwanted dissonance.

[Andail]

I think it sounded really good in the original version. Typically you'll hear that range of frequencies while listening to the piano in a restaurant or lounge, so the slightly "thin" and bright sound is not at all disturbing to me.

RedPress' remix is, quite frankly, quite a mess of carelessly applied reverbs that completely disrupts the original nuances and sustains.

[Nikolas]

I would say that indeed, when mentioning reverb, what redpress did, was not in my mind...

It just sounds like the keyboard from the hellish tunnel or something... A very plastic.

It is kinda interesting for something else, but doesn't seem really fit in this case I'm afraid...

But what redpress did, was to add plenty of bass to the mix which does actually works. Very much. And the very close mics in your face was gone. so I do give credit to that.

now that this thread and this music has come back, I could say that indeed a veyr gentle reverb (short tail but rather hugh to the wet part), and a little EQ to add to the bass, could work.

[Moresco]

Meh, it was an envelope hand-adjusted for each section.  Like Geoff said it's not typical of the style (it's typical of mine :p) of music and it was intended to sound as though it was being played in a room with more resonance.   Which it does, and it sounds great. But not for jazz I suppose.

[Nikolas]

*ahem*

More resonance, you mean a Cathedreal, or a tunnel maybe? The reverb was tons overboard... I've never heard any solo piano jazz or classical to sound like this really. If your'e talking about experimental avant garde, film, weird, electronica, then yes, ok  Ican accept it.

[Gregjazz]

it was intended to sound as though it was being played in a room with more resonance.   Which it does, and it sounds great. But not for jazz I suppose.

Well if you're trying to make it sound like a room with lots of reflections, the way I would mix it is so the reverb "envelopes" the piano, sorta acting as a surrounding pad, with the central piano still maintaining clarity and presence.

[Moresco]

The only way to accomplish that would be to make a separate layer of the track, add reverb to it, and keep the other track in its original condition.  That would probably sound better, but to me it would sound...unreal too.

[Nikolas]

You are aware that the reverb has a dry/wet setting always? Which is exactly the clean track and a full reverb track and the %$ of which is on top right?