A UFO theory.

[m0ds]

Thanks! I believe but that doesn't mean I'm not still sceptical about a lot of things Episode 3 very soon, and yep it's just for fun. Anyway I'm glad you guys enjoyed the blog As for Blossom Goodchild, Eric, I'm not entirely sure. She's one of these people who "channel" things. Not sure how much to believe it, seriously, but with pyschics and their apparent truth it doesn't necessarily seem like such a long shot. Apparently a lot of other "channellers", whatever they're really called, have said the same thing. Several early predictions state that by the end of 2008 we will know of other beings, etc. Who knows! Thanks for the support

[Shane 'ProgZmax' Stevens]

What apparent truth about psychics?  That they're hucksters that get paid to lie to bereaved people?  I'm not sure what  truth you're referring to, since none of them have ever produced solid proof of their abilities even when offered a million dollars to do so.k

Also, this is great -  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eo8CP9Hhb58

[MrColossal]

Mods I have a question, if 2008 comes and goes and the predictions are found to be wrong and the world is exactly as it was before. What does that do to your opinion of Blossom Goodchild? I watched her video where she explains her prediction and she said many times with conviction that it will happen and and it is definately going to happen and she's spoke with aliens in her mind and if it doesn't the only thing left to do is to back pedal and make up an excuse why it didn't happen. My guess is she will say there wasn't enough love in the world even though she said there was enough and that's why they found us.

The reason I ask is that this thread is about UFO theories and now psychic phenomena is being brought in. A UFO has a grounding in science where psychic ability has pretty much been debunked soundly for years and years and years. So if all these predictions of UFOs this year turn out false, will you be putting any stock into future predictions?

[Andail]

The problem with claims that deal with the supernatural is that they are seldom falsifiable. If the predicted event or result defaults, there will always be an excuse or explanation involving even more intricate supernatural claims.

Reporter: Actually, this is a setup. The horse you just communicated telepathically with hates bareback riding...
Horse whisperer: Hm? Oh wait, he's telling me something more...Ah, he was just kidding! Quite a prankster, old Acorn!
Reporter: ...and his real name is Chess.

[MrColossal]

Reporter: ...and his real name is Chess.

Horse Whisperer: That's his SLAVE NAME!

[Shane 'ProgZmax' Stevens]

Clearly.  No horse would choose 'chess' as a name since they don't even know what it means, but they've surely seen acorns before!

I dare you to defy horse-logic.

[Andail]

Rats!
Andail vs Horse-whisperers: 0-1

[Dualnames]

what I said 10000 posts before is that WE can't go to other planets that would have a MORE intelligent life form than us or an equal. However they might be able to come.

[Nacho]

what I said 10000 posts before is that WE can't go to other planets that would have a MORE intelligent life form than us or an equal. However they might be able to come.

How?

[Dualnames]

If they can come, they will probably be more highly evolved in certain matters than we are. So that's why we're sending signals across the universe, we're not sending them to be recieved by worms or whatever, but by einsteins.

[Nacho]

If they can come, they will probably be more highly evolved in certain matters than we are. So that's why we're sending signals across the universe, we're not sending them to be recieved by worms or whatever, but by einsteins.

You say "They might come, because they are more evolved", and after that you say "We are sending messages to be understood by intelligent civilizations".

I will start from the latest statement: I don' t really know what have to see that we are sending messages to the universe with "Intelligent civilizations are visiting us". "We send messages" is not equal to "we have been visited".

Second, let' s go with the "evolution thing". Basically, it' s impossible that "those civilizations" have come to visit us "in the old fashioned way" (which is, make a spaceship, and jump from a star system in a zillion years travel to see if they are inhabitated) because there is no machine that can last enough to make those travels. Termodynamics and chaos theory tell us that a ship like those will break before succeding in a trip like that.

There is also the "age" of the travellers issue. The only possibilities to do trips like those are:

A) Form a space colony that can travel for zillions of years.
B) Cryogenics

I will not mention the technical problems of possibility A (Again, Chaos theory tells us that a colony won' t survive enough by technologycal of biological problems, the size of the ship should be huge, etc...), but I will launch a question... Why? Would you wake up one day, pick up your family and "join the government call to imbark in a suicide mission that can last millions of years with the only reward that your descendants MIGHT meet another civilization in the future"? Me neither. Aliens neither.

B: Again lots of tecnological problems... the machine that should keep that EBEs (Extra Terrestial Biological Entities) alive should have no fails in zillion of years, no interruption of power supply. But once again we must look the psicologycal aspect... Why? Why sending (An risking) a living being when you can send probes? If they send probes we have the "durability" problem again... But there are more.

Another possibility: Sending the "probe" directly to the earth. That would save million of years in travels (The distance is still huge... Apparently the closest system which might have an intelligent civilization is like 40 lightyears away, which means that the Voyager (Or the remains of it) would arrive there in 766558 years) but... How to do it? The first emission from Earth that can be "heard" in outer space was send 60 years ago, which means that they won't "hear us" till 766498 years. How are they going to send a spaceship to here if they won' t know where we are till 766498 years???

Okay... So, let' s avoid that "minor" problems... let' s think that the aliens know we are here, let' s forget that they are too far to make the trip without the spaceship to get broken, let' s forget that they are too far to survive to the trip to the Earth without dying... How can they do the trip? With faster speeds?

Nothing "material" can't  go faster than light. Only the Hawkings radiation, which is almost infinitelly small and is in a singularity can go faster and escape from black holes...

Ok... let' s go to point A (A black hole), to B (another black hole), linking them using a worm hole...

That might imply that if aliens visit us they must be able to de-materialise materia, to put it in black hole A, and have the techonlogy to control the singularities of that black hole so perfectly that it will re-mount the materia in order in black hole B... Again, we must assume that those aliens have a black hole in the vicinity, but... what about us? Do we have a black hole here, in the nearby? No... Using black holes to come to the earth would put you EVEN longer than coming through the stars.

Ok... But alies DO HAVE gravitational technology. Then can FORM a black hole wherever they want, and put the destinational black hole wherever they want, as well... We are asuming that aliens do have enough tecnology to form an original black hole A, to enter there and de-materialise, to create a destiny black hole B, and materialise there...

And those aliens, with those amazing technologies are the same ones that crash in Roswell because they are hit by a ray? Are those alies, with that amazing technology the same ones that have proven to be so stupid that they can't observe us without being seen/filmed/captured? Wow.

So... as we can seen, nothing, NOTHING, from the logical human point of view tell us they can come, and if they can come, logic implies we are not able to see them. That implies.

A) They are not here, they don't have enough tecnology, so, UFOs are not Aliens.
B) They are here, because they have the tecnology... But if they have the technology to do the trip, they must also have the technology for not being observed, so UFOs are not aliens again...

So, either if aliens are here or not, we can't have observed them.

So... Can aliens be here? Of course... But we can' t have evidences of that. If you say "Aliens might be here" I reply to you "Yes... and dragons, and fairies, and Angels..." Are you up to believe in dragons? No? Why are you up to believe in Aliens?

Believing without support of evidences is, (and sorry, I wanted to keep diplomat here, but I can't express it better) stupid. That attitude is the one that made the ancient human say "Hey, I hear a thunder... that must be a God' s fart" (which has been proven to be wrong). That made human being believe in fairies, witches, demons and giant sea snakes (which has been proven to be wrong). That attitude is the one that makes that nowaday in the XXIth century kids are still being told that "languajes were made because God was unhappy about how good Babel Tower works were going", or "God wake up one day, realised he was annoyed with his children, and said "Hey, what the fuck??? I will kill them all with a DeLuge" (Things that have been proved to be wrong).

When a question is raised, if you come to reply it with the fastest answer that comes to your mind, you are being shelfish and pretentious. It is nice to say "I don't know". You see a light in the sky? Yes? Me too. Do you know what it is? No? Me neither. Why do you say it' s a spacecraft driven by an alien being? You don' t know what it is... Full stop.

Skeptics are told to be "pretentious" because "they tell people what to believe". Sorry... When we see a light we say "I don' t know what it is, it might be a million things. I don' t think it' s an alien spacecraft, the matematical probabilities are tiny" When a "believer" see a light, passes of 999,999 plausible possibilities and claims "It' s an alien"

Who is being pretentious here?

[m0ds]

Hi Nacho, nice reply! I'm sure someone will give you a nice detailed reply, but I'm just going to say something on your last paragraph.

Skeptics are told to be "pretentious" because "they tell people what to believe". Sorry... When we see a light we say "I don' t know what it is, it might be a million things. I don' t think it' s an alien spacecraft, the matematical probabilities are tiny" When a "believer" see a light, passes of 999,999 plausible possibilities and claims "It' s an alien"

If you saw a three-headed monkey but nobody else had, you would be certain in your mind that there is then some truth in them existing, and would hope that everyone else would accept your claim. I see myself and other "believers" being the same. We've seen something that doesn't fit the bill. I'd say that many of those UFO believers who have seen something can compare it to something on that kind of "three headed monkey" scale. Not just lights in the sky, but lights that can pull lots of G's in different directions at very high speeds, triangular shaped glowing objects & spinning objects etc... I think really you should be questioning more what kind of technology this is that people are seeing rather than whether the people themselves seeing these things are making something of nothing. I believe simply because there's something we're not being told about, possibly hidden from - and you'd think if these things were high brow military secrets, the last thing we'd have is a thousand videos of them. Still, it's better just to judge for yourself.

I also reckon it wouldn't be that unlikely for another life bearing planet to be 200 years ahead of us in terms of technology, and 200 years from now I'm sure we'll have a fairly decent spaceship fleet that could at least reach the edge of our solar system Okay, make that 500. So I'm sure someone/thing on another planet could by achieving it too. Still. Oh yes there's also the fact that we are at quite an early point in the history of our Universe, so there's a chance everything else is lagging behind us - but indeed as we cross dimensions ourselves soon, the Universe our alien friends are visiting from could, for all we know, be much much older than our own. All these possibilitys seem crazy but watch enough DiscoveryScience channel and you'll get a grasp of how strange the universe is Back to earth, I think modern science, this year especially, has taught us - or at least reminded us, to open up to the fact there is plenty more than just "us" out there. Ice on Mars, 200 UFO reports in one night, the LHC etc. It is inevitable that Earth WILL be visited at some point, and because of the speed in which technology, our own conciousness & the stability of our world advances, there's a high chance it'll happen in our lifetimes. Whether it's on Tuesday who knows. Maybe Wednesday?

Personally, I'd rather we were visited by aliens and taught some things about space & time than delve into it ourselves with the LHC. I'd prefer to know they were there to help stop any massive meteor disasters and stuff than rely on our own governments to handle the situation. So that leads me to a question.

How do you (everyone, and Nacho ) envisage life, say, IN the 21st century, with the knowledge of aliens existence. Say the FoL (Federation of Light) HAD showed up in big UFOs. They didn't necessarily stay, but made it clear their intentions were friendly. How do you think this would affect your day to day life from then on, if at all? How would it affect your way of thinking, your view of life? I'd just like to know, would it be positive, negative or neutral?

Finally, thanks for the comments Eric - I understand that psychic stuff can - on a lot of occasions - be fake. As I said though I don't really know what to make of it. I don't know what to make of people who channel stuff either. But some of it does still seem like a mystery to me. I don't know if you get any decent shows like Star Psychic of Psychic Investigators, but they're good to watch. The mediums themselves seem pretty normal, and you can see the people are genuinly touched by what they're being said "about" them. Still, I've never met one. It's on my list of things to do, and from that, I guess I'll be able to make a real choice as to whether I believe them or not. Could be balls, indeed

As for Blossom. Well, it will be a shame if she isn't right. She seems like a happy, normal person. At the end of the day I wouldn't class it a problem either. If nothing else she's hammered home the notion that it will happen. And that is the part I believe. October 14th? It wouldn't surprise me if nothing at all happened. I would still get a feeling of being suckered into something...but I know she's quite genuine about it all, she's not trying to make a buck from it, she wasn't even expecting it to get as "big" as it has. Anyway, whoooo knows! I'll still keep a look out for UFOs beyond this if it doesn't happen

One video to check out is this recording of an interupted broadcast in my region from 1977. As far as I know it's the only occurence of it's kind globally. It does sound odd, fake pretty much. But the message within is actually pretty sensible. There is no particular preach within either. See what you think http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Jw_Th3yLw2s

[Shane 'ProgZmax' Stevens]

They never tracked this guy down either, m0ds.

Max Headroom hacks the tv!
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=pj1mUk04_ho

[Ryan Timothy B]

Aliens visiting Earth on a daily basis, no.  Aliens on a different world, yes.
I believe there are life forms on other planets, but I'm not a UFO believer, but I'll still give this a go.

A) Form a space colony that can travel for zillions of years.
B) Cryogenics

Two very primitive technological methods you have stated.
If these are the only two methods you, or humans can think of, it clearly shows that we are WAY too primitive to even attempt to tackle the insurmountable odds of interstellar travel.

Also instead of cryogenics, you ever thought of some type of dematerialized molecular stasis?  Where your body would dematerialize into molecular form to be stored until time to materialize again?  Of course this is highly science fiction, but it's probably not impossible.

Would you wake up one day, pick up your family and "join the government call to imbark in a suicide mission that can last millions of years with the only reward that your descendants MIGHT meet another civilization in the future"?

First off, you're telling me JUST to be in space you wouldn't get on board the 'USS ColonyShip'.  I would.  I would drop my life here on Earth to be a part of something that great.  Plus I have the finest human genes ever -- I'm made for breeding aboard colony ships (joke).
Second, they wouldn't take 'families' to be a part of something that long term.  Too many possibilities of inbreeding and later down the road/milky-way, the descendants would have too many arms to be considered human anymore.
They'd take young people in their twenties.  People with a good family health history, you wouldn't want Sam who's Daddy, Grand-Daddy, Great-Grand-Daddy, and so on, all suffered from heart attacks.

If they send probes we have the "durability" problem again... But there are more.

I'm not a scientist, but other than tiny space debris and asteroids--what is going to degrade the probe?  It's in a cold vacuum of space.  With no moving parts, just floating.  Other than human error, I don't know.

Apparently the closest system [...] is like 40 lightyears away, which means that the Voyager (Or the remains of it) would arrive there in 766558 years) The first emission from Earth [...] was sent 60 years ago, which means that they won't "hear us" till 766498 years.

I don't get it.  I don't know anything about this Voyager probe or whatever it is.  But they didn't launch it at the speed of radio signals which travel at speeds, give or take 299,792,458 metres per second in space.
Your math is 'slightly' flawed here.  We're not throwing stones at the nearest system, they are sending radio waves.

When a question is raised, if you come to reply it with the fastest answer that comes to your mind, you are being shelfish and pretentious. It is nice to say "I don't know".

This is human nature.  Every culture has their own religion just to explain the unknown.

[Nacho]

The problem, Mark, is that I have never seen something that looks "that weird" in the sky for me to assumed that it' s an alien spacecraft... But that's just PART of the problem. The biggest problem is that I' ve seen images (video footages, photos..) that people claims, swears, shouts (!!!) to be clearer as water to be an alien spacecraft.

And that images told nothing to me.

So... If I see as "nothing" something they claimed it's "something" by them, I can't do nothing but assume that "everything" claimed as "alien" is just another missinterpration of something "normal".

Imagine this: Someone comes to me, and says: "I' ve seen Nessie, but I haven't been able to take a picture...  " What would you think of him? Well... You could trust in his word. Maybe he/she has seen it... I have nothing not to trust on him. It' s all about credibitily. Now imagine someone comes and says "I' ve seen Nessie,and I have a picture!!!" and this picture showns nothing but a floating log. What would you think of his/hers credibility?

Same with aliens... I' ve seen zillion of photos... I' ve investigated a lot. Nothing. I have been promised I was going to be given photos, videos, materials... All of them proving that those "impossible G' s flights", those lights, those "clear as water" sightings were true. I am still here, sitting, and waiting. And nothing.

"Alien" footage allways comes a step behind science fiction, not the opposite. Lovel talks about martians? Ok... a joker reporter comes with a joke story about an Alien crashing in Aurora, Texas. Flash Gordon comics have spacecrafts? Here comes Arnold with his "sighting story" (and suddenly, thousands of sightings start to spread out all around the country, disc shape, no problem Arnold saw boomerang like saucers, everyone is seeing "discs", because a reporter pissed it off when typing the news...) Buck Rogers comes with tales about abductions? Here comes the Hills, talking about abductions.

And no... We won't "be able to do that spaceships in 200 years". Scientists are quite sure that we won't ever do that.

Scientists not only doubt that we will do it... but also scientists doubt if the first steps into quantum mecanics can be done. I don't know if you undestood my post, but using worm holes as a secure way of transport looks quite complicate. We should de-built every Mod' s atom, to put them in a black hole, and build them in the same exact order in another black hole. And just a very few of particles of a black hole became Hawking radiation (which means that they can go fastest than light and, therefore, escape of the hole) Now imagine ALL M0D'S atoms to do so... In a micro-small enviroment. To put you an example, we are more far away that controlling a quantum foam that flies are to build a rocket able to go to the moon. It is highly unlikely that any civilization will do that. Your basic premise is that earth will be visited. You are wrong. And, as said, if finally aliens do that, if they are so intelligent to make our technology look so ridiculous as a fly seems to us, do you really think they are so stupid to be seen/filmed/photographed? I don' t think so.

The only possibility is (typical "believer argument") is to say "Well... they are aliens... their logic might be different... They might want to visit us, but never had the intention to hide, or mabe they want to show they are here, but "slowly"..." (A way to "show" that we, as humans, should have never chose)

Ok... and I reply: If we jump over the logic... Why stopping there? Why not assuming there are dragons (maybe there actually are dragons... maybe they are invisible... or maybe they can hide very well...)? Why not assuming that there are fairies, and elves, and trolls? If we must apply something out of logic to invent a science we do not know, if we must create an illogical psicology for aliens to make them act in the illogical way "they act"... why not applying that lack of logic to everything?

I would say why: Because then we should reach to absurdity. Aliens, for now, and according to what we know, are as absurd as all those mytical creatures... It' s just that they are fashioned and we can't see how absured they are, because we have the will to believe in them, and the will to believe in dragons, fairies, elves and trolls is extinguised, nowadays.

So, again... Show me evidences. Saying "200 sightings in a month" doesn't work, for a simply reason... There have been more than 200 sightings of something that has proven not to exist in the past (The Kraken, Nessie, Witches, fairies, demons, etc...)

EDIT: Ryan, why are my maths flawed? Voyager would last 766558 years to make 40 lightyears. Why did I use Voyager? Not because it's mission is to reach to other civilizations, as you think I mean, but because it' s the fastest vehicle created by man.

[Ryan Timothy B]

Apparently the closest system which might have an intelligent civilization is like 40 lightyears away, which means that the Voyager (Or the remains of it) would arrive there in 766558 years) but... How to do it? The first emission from Earth that can be "heard" in outer space was send 60 years ago, which means that they won't "hear us" till 766498 years.

why are my maths flawed?

I'm not arguing the speed and time it will take this Voyager vessel to reach the 40 lightyear distance--because honestly I know nothing of Voyager or the speed it is traveling.
BUT:
You said the probe will reach them in 766558 years.
AND
You said the first emission from Earth was sent 60 years ago and will reach the 40 lightyear distance in 766498 years.

Since radio waves travel at the speed of light, it would take roughly 40 years to reach the 40 lightyear distance.  Not 766498 years.

You're calculating the speed of Voyager to be the same as the speed of radio waves.

[Nacho]

No, no... Missunderstood.  Maybe I am not explaining it propperly. I am saying that radiowaves from "here" to "there" would arrive in 40 years. Since those radiowaves were emmited 60 years ago, their "trip that will end visiting us" started 20 years ago (Assuming they are 40 lightyears away, they "heard" us, and they had a spaceship preppaired before reciving the transmission, which is assuming a lot...)

Since in the first part of my post I was assuming that they were not able to travel lightspeed, then is when I said that they will probably arrive here in 766498 years.

[Ryan Timothy B]

Alright.  I understand you now.

I was just researching some pretty cool stuff to look at your calculations.


The fastest man made object was the Halios 1 & 2 probes that were launched towards the Sun.  Traveling at speeds of 252,792 km/h.

A light year is 9,460,730,472,580.8 km in distance.

Alpha Centauri is the closest star system to our own solar system, at 4.37 light years away.


Distance from our solar system to Alpha Centauri in km's is:
41,343,392,165,178 km

Assuming humans could survive on a vessel traveling at speeds equal to the Helios probes, which were:
252,792 km/h

It would take:
18,669.7 years to reach Alpha Centauri.

Now that's a really long time.

40 light years would take 170,890.2 years to travel (at the same speed as the Helios probes).

We definitely need faster ships.

EDIT:
And apparently the Voyager 1 & 2 probes had Plutonium-238 aboard to power the systems.  Which decays with a half-life of 87.74 years.  I don't even Want to do the math on how many Kilo's of Plutonium-238 would be needed to power even something as small as the Voyager probes to allow it to make the distance to Alpha Centauri.
So I guess there would definitely be decay on a vessel, even though it's in the vacuum of space.

[Nacho]

Hey, thanks for the info about the Helios probes... I allways thought Voyager was the fastest object created by man, and it' s a data that is commonly repeated in the amateur scientific circles... I will update my data, now! 

Anyway, which such speeds, it' s better, IMO, to talk in Kms (Of miles, if you use to use miles) per second. Helios are like 70 kms/s while Voyager is 30 Kms/s.

[Miez]

Some very interesting stuff on the "official" research into UFOs can be found here:

http://io9.com/5063000/declassified-government-documents-reveal-the-truth-about-ufos

Thrilling.