An eye for an eye

Started by Andail, Sun 29/03/2009 20:11:13

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Andail

Sun 29/03/2009 20:11:13
This very literal application of Islamic law is soon to be carried out in Iran.

http://edition.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/meast/12/14/iran.acid.justice/

It wasn't in Swedish newspaper until recently, and I was shocked enough to post it here.

In some islamic countries it's common that envious or indignated men pour acid in the faces of women to render them outcast. It seems one woman is soon to get even.

Nikolas

#1
Sun 29/03/2009 22:02:26
wow!  :o Speechless for the moment...

MillsJROSS

#2
Sun 29/03/2009 22:18:20
What an eye opener...

-MillsJROSS

Ghost

#3
Sun 29/03/2009 22:22:42 Last Edit: Sun 29/03/2009 22:24:32 by Ghost
Gross. Grimly satisfying, in a way, but still.

bicilotti

#4
Sun 29/03/2009 23:07:26
Sad news.

rbaleksandar

#6
Mon 30/03/2009 06:35:01
  I say, pretty awesome laws. Yes, it's true that they are totally different culture (I have a couple of Arabian friends so I know ;)), but once in Europe there were such laws too. For stealing - cut off his arm, for lying and slander that brougth misery to someone - cut off his toungue. I like especially the law applied to an architecture whose house had collapsed and killed its owner - cut off his head. About the raping thins - well, that bad really.

  You can't judge a whole "culture" so to say. It's really a very VERY different world. What we think is brutal and inhuman, they think is proper. What about all the sex, drugs and alchoholism in Europe? Is that normal? I think not. :-\
I am a mighty pirate. Arrrrgh!

bicilotti

#7
Mon 30/03/2009 07:51:11
Quote from: rbaleksandar on Mon 30/03/2009 06:35:01
  You can't judge a whole "culture" so to say. It's really a very VERY different world. What we think is brutal and inhuman, they think is proper. What about all the sex, drugs and alchoholism in Europe? Is that normal? I think not. :-\

I do judge: this sentence, the same idea of violence as a retribution make the law I'm used to better, way better, than the one that judge in Iran applied.

It is brutal and inhuman, and the mere fact that our ancestors had the same attitude towards criminals a couple of centuries ago doesn't make it less brutal or less inhuman.

bicilotti over and out.

Andail

#8
Mon 30/03/2009 08:04:45 Last Edit: Mon 30/03/2009 08:07:23 by Andail
Quote from: RickJ on Mon 30/03/2009 03:09:55
Are you people from Mars or something?    I find it hard to believe that anyone in the civilized world doesn't know that this kind of thing is a normal occurrence in  most "so called" Muslim countries.     

Rick, the occurence I'm referring to is the legally sanctioned revenge, which is pretty much a new thing.
My (ex) life partner since 3 years is from Iran, so I don't need to be lectured on what's going on in that part of the world. I can assure you that I've been outraged plenty of times because of the examples you brought up, and they are not new to me.

Systematic abuse and oppression of women is an everyday thing, but this is the first time I hear about a woman who will be allowed to take revenge on her attacker.

And the thought of having the perpetrator strapped down and receive acid in his face, in a controlled manner, is a pretty shocking image. Not that there isn't an animal part of me that finds satisfaction in this morbid way of carrying out justice.

paolo

#9
Mon 30/03/2009 11:13:43
Quote from: Andail on Mon 30/03/2009 08:04:45
And the thought of having the perpetrator strapped down and receive acid in his face, in a controlled manner, is a pretty shocking image. Not that there isn't an animal part of me that finds satisfaction in this morbid way of carrying out justice.

Isn't this what this amounts to in the end? Revenge rather than justice? It may make the victim (of the original crime) and his family feel better, but what benefit is there to society? It can't be said that it acts as a deterrent either, because crime seems to be as widespread in the countries with this system of justice as in any other country.

By the way, modern theologians interpret "an eye for an eye" as "let the punishment fit the crime" rather than "let the criminal suffer what he inflicted on his victims", although in a twisted kind of way, it looks like the former interpretation is the one being used here.

InCreator

#10
Mon 30/03/2009 11:21:32
Sun must be really warm down there.

But there are crimes that require death penalty, I think.

Like serial rapists, kid abusers, etc monsters. Not free housing on taxpayer money.
Europe is being a wuss, as always, with DP banned in most countries, including mine.

SSH

#11
Mon 30/03/2009 11:31:01
Um, strictly speaking, I don't think "an eye for an eye" is literally part of Islamic law as its a quote from Exodus. There is Qisas is Islam, but that doesn't say explicitly "an eye for an eye". Pedantic, I know, but it makes the OP phrase of "literal" inaccurate. Of course "very literal" is not really good either since something's either literal or not... ;)
12

Andail

#12
Mon 30/03/2009 11:35:14 Last Edit: Mon 30/03/2009 11:41:24 by Andail
Quote from: SSH on Mon 30/03/2009 11:31:01
Um, strictly speaking, I don't think "an eye for an eye" is literally part of Islamic law as its a quote from Exodus. There is Qisas is Islam, but that doesn't say explicitly "an eye for an eye". Pedantic, I know, but it makes the OP phrase of "literal" inaccurate. Of course "very literal" is not really good either since something's either literal or not... ;)

Yes yes, and "it's" is spelled with an apostrophe.

Pedantry aside, I'd like to emphasise that I'm officially against this kind of punishments, as well as death penalty, even though I'm ready to admit a sense of satisfaction. Simply because the message has thus far been that abusing and disfiguring women is an accepted way of punishing them for disrespecting men, in ever so trivial ways, and now there's finally an example being made that it's not okay.

But in general, revenge-based punishments are totally backwards and belong to the middle ages.

Shane 'ProgZmax' Stevens

#13
Mon 30/03/2009 11:47:12
QuoteNot that there isn't an animal part of me that finds satisfaction in this morbid way of carrying out justice.

As barbaric as it may sound, the woman is probably getting the closest thing to true justice her country affords, which is surprising to me more than it is shocking since she is a woman.  Also, I'm not exactly sure the Western World has such a great handle on crime, anyway, with prisons overfull with everything from violent rapists/gang members to tax evaders.  I doubt the jails in Iran are ever full!

rbaleksandar

#14
Mon 30/03/2009 12:41:08
Quote from: bicilotti on Mon 30/03/2009 07:51:11
I do judge: this sentence, the same idea of violence as a retribution make the law I'm used to better, way better, than the one that judge in Iran applied.

It is brutal and inhuman, and the mere fact that our ancestors had the same attitude towards criminals a couple of centuries ago doesn't make it less brutal or less inhuman.

bicilotti over and out.

  It is for you, but not for them. Do you have any idea what the life in the Arabian (Muslim) world is? I think not. Attitude towards women, way to punish people etc.
 
  Example: your wife sleeps with another man (not you). The normal punishment is to beat the wife not the man.
I asked a friend of mine (who's from Lebanon): "Why? By us it's 'forbidden' to do that."
And he told me: "Well, we usually don't beat our women too. Only when they deserve it."
Of course as a reply I asked: "What do you mean 'deserve'?"
  "Well, if for exampl your wife cheats on you she defies the family honour etc. If you beat the lover (the man who she has slept with), she will do it again because she wasn't punished for what she has done. That's why you beat the wife not her lover. Then she will know what will happen next time."
  Yes, it might sound barbaric (I've never hit a woman and won't unless my life depends on it) BUT think about that: when the child is naughty and does something wrong you don't punish the thing the child has done (e.g. broke a toy -> beat the toy) - you slap the child.

  And as ProgZmax said obviously our system isn't working! Yes, you put people in jail BUT you feed them and support them on your back for the rest of your life. Do you think that the food in prisons comes from the sky. Definitely not! It's all from the taxes you and I, and everyone pays. I sometimes think that it would have been better if the old laws and ways to punish the culprit. Once - centuries ago - such laws were applied in my country too. Then they stopped with all the bullsh*t about human rights etc. And now look what it is?! Crime everywhere.


  About the barbarity and inhumanity of the whole thing - all people are the same. Scare a bunch of tos*ers, make them run and scream and you'll see what animals the so called humans are. Humans are the most violent and agressive creatures on this planet.
I am a mighty pirate. Arrrrgh!

InCreator

#15
Mon 30/03/2009 12:45:39 Last Edit: Mon 30/03/2009 12:50:51 by InCreator
I don't find "not barbaric" even a considerable argument.

We are not some kind of higher beings with endless intelligence we often like to think we are. Not while we have horrible things... like for example - coal plants, nuclear weapons, child labor, human trafficking and capitalism.
Fact is, humans are savages, either towards each other, community or nature. Some less, some more. Very few are really what's considered good. But even human moral scale - the "good" - is relative to humans themselves. Good is what most powerful human says is good. The government, the law, the whatever. Don't like it? We'll punish you, don't worry.

And by this, long-agreed system and our (or atleast mine) humanly feelings, some of humans are savage enough to deserve their balls to be cut off.
No amount hippie moaning will change this.

EDIT: Didn't notice post just before mine. I Agree.

RickJ

#16
Mon 30/03/2009 14:02:27
Quote
Rick, the occurence I'm referring to is the legally sanctioned revenge, which is pretty much a new thing.
I don't think it's new at all.  Such punishments are common place in the Muslim world; bodily mutilation as punishment is nothing new to these people.   

I read the entire story and I didn't see revenge mentioned at all.  From the article there are the victim may choose one of three outcomes:

- Get married to her attacker
- Attacker pays a fine and goes free
- Attacker gets acid in the face

The victim stated that she doesn't want this idot stalking her for the rest of her life and that she wants justice.   What's new is the fact that  a male is actually going to be punished for committing violence against a woman.   

Quote
My (ex) life partner since 3 years is from Iran, so I don't need to be lectured on what's going on in that part of the world.
I apologize if I sounded like I am lecturing you.  However given the circumstance you describe, I don't quite understand how it is that you were unaware that bodily mutilation is a common form of punishment in the Muslim world.

Quote
"Well, if for exampl your wife cheats on you she defies the family honour etc. If you beat the lover (the man who she has slept with), she will do it again because she wasn't punished for what she has done. That's why you beat the wife not her lover. Then she will know what will happen next time."
What your friend neglected to tell you is that Islam considered to be inferior to men.  Consequently in most Muslim countries women have the legal status of property the same as livestock and are treated as such.   Your friend also neglected to tell you that the under the law in most Muslim countries the wife in his example can killed  with impunity for her deeds.   You friend also neglected to tell you that riding in a car with a male non-family member, simply leaving her home unescorted, or disobeying  the husband in some other way could be considered "cheating".   

rbaleksandar

#17
Mon 30/03/2009 15:05:33 Last Edit: Mon 30/03/2009 15:09:24 by rbaleksandar
Quote from: RickJ on Mon 30/03/2009 14:02:27
What your friend neglected to tell you is that Islam considered to be inferior to men.  Consequently in most Muslim countries women have the legal status of property the same as livestock and are treated as such.   Your friend also neglected to tell you that the under the law in most Muslim countries the wife in his example can killed  with impunity for her deeds.   You friend also neglected to tell you that riding in a car with a male non-family member, simply leaving her home unescorted, or disobeying  the husband in some other way could be considered "cheating".   
I know that :) No need to tell. That's another things that one form the "civilized" world might consider as barbaric - to treat a person as property. ;)

btw In India is worse (about the women I mean) :)
I am a mighty pirate. Arrrrgh!

Nacho

#18
Mon 30/03/2009 16:32:18 Last Edit: Mon 30/03/2009 18:41:09 by Nacho
I think there are some "bad and horrible things", for example, someone goes walking down the street and kills someone else because he wanted to.

There are also "horrible but good things", for example, there is a life boat for 15 people, filled with 18, and the 18 that were already in didn't  allowed the rest of survivors to get it... Horrible, but better save 18 than nobody.

I think this is horrible. If good or bad is something I don' t want to discuss, I have my own opinion, but it' s just for me... What freaks me out a lot is that some people here doesn't seem to see the "this is horrible" as clear as I do...  :o
Are you guys ready? Let' s roll!

InCreator

#19
Mon 30/03/2009 18:12:17 Last Edit: Mon 30/03/2009 18:13:56 by InCreator
QuoteI know that Smiley No need to tell. That's another things that one form the "civilized" world might consider as barbaric - to treat a person as property. Wink

Isn't that what capitalism is all about?

Don't your thoughts, everything you can imagine or do - belong to your employer? Everything you own is held at bank, or even belong officially to bank (modern way of life - debts & leases)?

I'm a designer, doing creative work and feel it maybe stronger than people in service or other industries. Or who are capitalists themselves...
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