Anonymous?

[vict0r]

Church does what?

Inform it's members. But yeah, I'm not attacking anyone. Just Emeralds trolling that kinda made me annoyed, but meh... It's teh intarwebz!!1

[Emerald]

Oh my God, a differing opinion! DIE TROLL!

[Radiant]

It seems like everybody is under the impression the I'm defending Scientology.  Which I'm certainly not.

Well, you're only attacking the people that don't like scientology - which boils down to pretty much the same, if you think about it. Just saying.

(also I don't see where you're getting the impression that this is a heated argument or an angry discussion, as I've seen worse discussions about D&D rules...)

[Meowster]

Scientologists starved a woman and had bugs bite her...

Atheists shot up a school in Colorado. YOU PEOPLE MAKE ME SICK! ALL ATHEISTS MUST DIE FOR THEIR SINS!

or what purpose would they be propagandizing?

People are like that. Remember all the bullshit propaganda that PS3-fanboys put out about the Xbox 360? They don't personally benefit from that. It's human nature - if someone thinks something is good, and someone else thinks it's bad, those two people will fling all sorts of crap at each other...

Hi Emerald,

I think you need to research the Church of Scientology a little more before you comment any more in this thread. It's fine to have your own opinions about things obviously, but yours are very obviously under researched.

There are very clear known facts about the Church of Scientology which show it to be a very corrupt and dangerous organisation. There is plenty of reading material available on the web, and would be more if the CoS hadn't shut down many of these pages through either threats (both violent and legal threats), hacking, etc.

The fact that Scientology does not allow its "secrets" to be shared publicly, and that you must pay for the privilage of knowing their 'secrets'; that they guard themselves so closely, is in itself a clear indication towards the fact that the upper members of the church certainly understand and condone the corruption within and try to hide it as best they can.

Members who drop out of the church are shunned and often threatened, by legal means (threatening to sue if they reveal anything they know about the church) but also violent threats if that person is considered to be a danger to their reputation, such as if it was a high ranking church member.

Members of the church of have family that are not members are encouraged and often forced to cut off their family entirely, particularly if the family members are actively against the church.  Children of church members are encouraged in Scientology schools (according to official Scientology guidelines) to spy on other children and tell on them if they misbehave or say bad things about the church. The early stages of indoctrination, both for children born into the church and also for adults who have just joined, are known techniques for brainwashing people, such as in the schools, where they make children repeat simple, hypnotic and repetitive tasks such as following the movement of a finger for a very long time, before being instructed about church guidelines and ideals... such as spying on your friends and family. This is an extraordinarily abusive way of treating children, as it destroys their ability to create trusting relationships and effectively turns them into brainwashed scientology slaves.

People who speak out against the church are harrassed. Scientologists (again, in line with Official Scientology Guidelines) do such petty things as handing out fliers or putting up posters around that person's home town, filled with what are usually fabrications such as "this person is a whore" "this person has aids" "this person is gay" etc. This is actually in line with Scientology guidelines and is just something they are obliged to do as church members. They also phone employers and pose as customers complaining about that person, or spread derogatory rumours at their workplace. They use intimidation tactics such as following that person for months, breaking into their houses, repeatedly phoning and then hanging up, or phoning and threatening to kill them. This is not just an occasional occurance that is performed by individual crazy scientologists, this is instructed in their guidelines. To quote what L Ron Hubbard himself wrong, "that person must be destroyed at all costs".

Scientologists are asked many intimate questions while attached to lie detectors, including details on their sex life, their family, scandals they've been involved in, etc. This information in collected and stored, and is used against them if they speak out against the church.

L Ron Hubbard's son himself said that he believed his father was insane and that Scientology was a money-grabbing farce. If L Ron Hubbard is insane, is it any wonder that he is so against psychiatry? It could also be quite possibly due to the fact that any psychiatrist or psychologist can see quite clearly the effects of scientology on the minds of it's victims...

Again I stress that all of the above is not just rumour spread by anti-scientologists. This is what L Ron Hubbard himself wrote and instructed other Scientologists to do, and it is frequently carried out to the best of their ability.

Documents were found during a raid on a church that showed plans to kill an ex-member in a particularly cruel way. They had previously harrassed her, broken into her house and held her at gunpoint, constantly called her and hung up or threatened her. They tipped off the FBI to a crime she hadn't committed and she was investigated for months. It all eventually came to light when a Scientology church was raided and documents were found regarding her, with details about how they had framed her, and how they planned to send a Scientology member, posing as a non-scientologist, to seduce her, become her boyfriend and then spy on her and play on her suicidal tendencies to encourage her to kill herself. They knew about her suicidal tendencies as it was documented during one of her lie detector tests at the church.

There are also numerous incidents of people who have left Scientology after reporting that they were ordered to kill someone. One man claims that he was asked to kill his psychologist, who he had confided to about scientology, and then kill himself. Another person was ordered to run over a prominent anti-scientologist activist. Not to mention horrific child abuse such as children being locked in cupboards for days on end on L Ron Hubbards orders. You can try to argue that these cases are just disgruntled ex-scientologists that are lying, but even so, there is evidence to support many of these claims and well as there being a huge amount of them.

Scientology is not a religion, it is a very dangerous and unfortunately fairly established cult. It is not the same as a self-help club, because self help clubs to not encourage abuse, murder, harrassment.

Fortunately for most people, the internet has greatly helped to spread word about scientology, which until then was a greatly guarded secret. This is most likely why they now put such emphasis on the "famous" members of the church, who they believe will likely influence people into joining.

So before anybody tries to suggest that Scientology is harmless, that the occurances of threats and violence are far and few between and performed only by the occasional nutcase: I suggest you do just a little research.

I think after reading the above you will agree that it is certainly not harmless.

[Darth Mandarb]

Well, you're only attacking the people that don't like scientology - which boils down to pretty much the same, if you think about it. Just saying.

Yes, I am primarily attacking those who are staging these protests because they (Anonymous) are what this thread is about.  However I am not only attacking them.  I made several points against Scientology, Christians, and Muslims as well.  If it's necessary I can cite several other examples of things I disagree with on other groups of people (not just Anonymous).

I feel I have quite thoroughly (on several occasions) made my [negative] feelings towards Scientology known.

Lastly, I don't see it as "boiling down to pretty much the same" thing at all.  Yes, I am opposed to Scientology.  However, I'm not going to go along with this Anonymous group simply because they too oppose Scientology.  I don't like what they're doing and I'm not going to pretend I do.  How would that make any sense?

Disagreeing with their methods doesn't mean I agree with Scientology.  It just doesn't.

[Vince Twelve]

So you disagree with their methods.  What should these people (the people who are staging protests outside Scientology buildings) be doing instead? 

I cannot understand why you're opposed to protests.  Your reasons thus far have been either about the futility of the protests, or the fact that there are worse evils in the world.

Regarding the ineffectiveness: Even if the protests don't bring down the whole organization, which I don't think anyone expects, as I stated earlier in the thread, even if they can stop one person from setting foot in that building and losing their life's savings to a cult it would be worth it, wouldn't it?  These things have to start somewhere.

Regarding greater evils: Just because there are more battles to be fought, doesn't mean someone shouldn't be fighting this one.  Also, your point about the Crusades may have been  relevant to this argument two thousand years ago, but we're talking about a modern religion, and one that is only a religion because they can save money on taxes that way.  And the point about 9-11 is just plain wrong.  The group of people launching terror attacks around the world does not represent Islam.  For each suicide bomber and terrorist there are a million peaceful and kind Muslims.  And the comparison of having to pay to be a scientologist to the collection plate in church is apples and oranges as well.  You can get a bible for free on any college campus, or cheap in any book store.  You can know everything they're about before even setting foot in a church or seeing a collection plate.  With scientology, you have to pay thousands of dollars to be audited many times over while you progress through their ranks.  They do extensive background checks on your finances once they've established your interests to see just how much they can milk from you.  They have even forged documents to help old ladies mortgage their houses in order to extract more money! Before you know what their religion is teaching, you could be out tens of thousands of dollars.  Now, I'm not saying that Christianity and Islam are free of guilt in the modern world.  No, if this conversation were about them I'd be talking about how harmful they are to the modern world in the name of their invisible deities.  But still, the fact that these religions have some real bad mojo doesn't mean that others should get away with their crimes.

As Meowster so excellently stated, there is a long laundry lists of reasons why Scientology needs to be stopped.  They are harming their members in ways that are inexcusable.  And despite scientology's best efforts, there is more than enough proof out there the demonstrate their danger.  The aim of these protests is to help more people become aware of these dangers.  You are a strong-headed person, Darth, and I don't fault you for that.  I admire your devotion to your opinions and beliefs.  I just hope that you'll take some time to see that something has to be done about this fake religion to save the people currently under their control and to save others from falling into it, even if that something starts as a little ripple in the pond.

[Darth Mandarb]

I'm not really opposed to (or protesting) protests in general.  But this "protest" (at least what I've seen of it) came across as juvenile and intentionally inflammatory.  It's like they're picking a fight, all the while claiming that they aren't picking a fight.  And Anonymous?  You want to protest something, fine, man-up and do it publicly and don't hide behind anonymity.  To me that's cowardly and removes me from taking it seriously.

I can see your point ... however, once again, I think people simply aren't seeing my point.

I am not a fan of Scientology.

I never said that Scientology should be allowed to get away with anything simply because other religions have in the past.

I never said that Scientology shouldn't be stopped.

I never said there weren't other battles to be fought.  In fact I was suggesting there ARE other battles worth being fought.

The Crusades took place in the past in the name of a religion that is still practiced today.  The events we're discussing about Scientology were events that took place in the past in the name of a religion that is still practiced today.  The number of years is irrelevant to me.  The Crusades were 1000 years ago, yes, but die-hard Catholics still don't believe in evolution!  So the 1000 years hasn't progressed their thinking too much in my opinion.

My point about 9-11 is not plain wrong.  The terrorists that crashed those planes were Muslims and they carried out those attacks in the name of Islam.  Whether it's Islam as we [most] would want it to be, or their twisted perversion of it doesn't change the fact they murdered all those people praising Allah all the way.  I'm well aware that 99.99% of Muslims are peace loving and don't condone these acts, but it doesn't change the fact that ones who carried out these acts were Muslims.

Anyway...

Would it just be easier for everybody in here if I just typed (all in caps) I THINK SCIENTOLOGY NEEDS TO BE STOPPED!!

[Vince Twelve]

Ok, I got you Darth.  Boo scientology.  Kumbaya.  Etc.

I still have to say, I don't think that the crusades example applies because I don't think that the religion today needs to be protested for the wars it sponsored 1000 years ago.  Scientology needs to be protested for the crimes that it is still sponsoring today.  The relevance of the two issues is incomparable in my mind.

And I don't think the 9-11 example applies, because I don't think that a religion needs to be protested for the actions of a radical group who misunderstand the religion's principles.  I do, however, think that Scientology should be protested for the crimes that are sponsored by the Church's leadership and even written into the organizations goals and operational parameters by it's founder.  The difference between small fringe group being bad and entire organization being bad is incomparable in my mind.

Again, I know we're on the same side, and I hope you don't take my constant hounding of your points as a personal attack!  I'm enjoying the conversation.  Thanks to my language level, I don't get a lot of in-depth debate over here in Japan!

Edit:  Oh!  And happy birthday!

[Shane 'ProgZmax' Stevens]

DING! DING!

ProgZ takes out Vince's mouthpiece as he staggers back to the blue corner.  "You got 'em on the ropes, Vincey!"

Vince empties a half-full water bottle while ProgZ dabs his forehead with a damp cloth.  "I don't know, boss...I just don't know if I can get the message through to the anti-conspiracy crowd!"

"What!?" ProgZ shouts, drawing the attention of the red corner where Tom Cruise, surrounded by his most loyal Level 8 Thetan honor guard, flashes a 10-cent grin at his opponents.  "Ya can't throw in the towel, Vincey -- not when you're so close!  Now get back in there and fight!"

Vince pops in his mouthpiece and springs from the corner for another round.

[Darth Mandarb]

I guess it's just a matter of perception...

I wasn't trying to say that Christianity should be stopped today because of the Crusades 1000 years ago.  I was using that as an example to point out my disdain for ALL organized religions and it somehow turned into me supporting Scientology.  Confusing ... but I sort of expect things like that whenever religion is being debated on here.

I have spoken with a lot of Christians (not just Catholics) who, after I manipulate the conversation a little bit, have said such things as, "we should just nuke the entire middle east" or "the only solution is to kill 'em all".  1000 years ago or not, it seems the idea of a new Crusade isn't too far fetched in this day and age.

As for Islam and its "peace loving" majority ... that peace loving majority still makes women hide their faces and forces them to get the permission of their man to talk to other people.  They can't vote.  They can't go out in public.  They can't think for themselves.  That peace loving religion murders a woman that comes back to her home country trying to spark a democratic process.  While the crusades were 1000 years ago, Islam still seems to be operating from that time.  The religion of Islam is as bad as any other of the major religions in my eyes ... the 9-11 terrorists just throw more garbage on the already steaming heap as far as I'm concerned.

I'm fully aware that in the bullshit PC world we live in that I am not supposed to say those negative things against Islam because everybody will immediately assume it's a racist comment (but ironically just glance over my thoughts on Christianity without a second thought).  It's not a race thing, it's a religion thing. Or ... IT'S NOT A RACE THING ... IT'S A DISDAIN FOR ORGANIZED RELIGION.  Just to avoid 2 pages of being labeled a racist

Oh ... and Vince, thanks for the birthday wishes   I'm enjoying the chat as well!

[DanielH]

Mandarb, glad you see things the way I do... religion never helps... ever. Most wars have a religious cause, and personally, I hate it's existence. Not individual religions, all of them.

[Meowster]

I'm not really opposed to (or protesting) protests in general.  But this "protest" (at least what I've seen of it) came across as juvenile and intentionally inflammatory.  It's like they're picking a fight, all the while claiming that they aren't picking a fight.  And Anonymous?  You want to protest something, fine, man-up and do it publicly and don't hide behind anonymity.  To me that's cowardly and removes me from taking it seriously.

Darth, while I agree that they did come across as juvenile to me with their original video released on youtube etc., there is a very valid reason for them wearing masks and remaining anonymous. This is because of the risk of Scientologists identifying them and harrassing them. At some of the Anonymous protests, Scientologists took pictures and filmed protesters not wearing masks. It's widely known that Scientologists use harrassment and violence to intimidate people into silence, hence the masks.

Just thought I'd point that out 

[Darth Mandarb]

Yeah I knew why they were wearing the masks ...

I just don't agree with it.

At this point they have realized that, legally, there's nothing they can do to bring down the Church of Scientology.  So they have resorted to these protests which is really their only option.  In this type of "fight", when legal action isn't possible, there will ALWAYS be the threat of violence and harassment.  That's human nature.  One group is trying to stop another from their way of life ... who wouldn't fight against that?

To cite a couple of examples:

The founding fathers of the United States.  They stood up, in public view, and signed their names on a declaration of independence.   Knowing full well they were signing, potentially, their own death warrants.  They knew the risks but they didn't hide in the shadows.  They believed in their cause and were willing to put their lives on the line to achieve their goals.

Look at the civil rights movement of the 1960's.  Heroic men like Medgar Evers and Martin Luther King Jr. stood up in FULL view and declared their protests and their visions of right and wrong.  Both of them paid the ultimate price and their sacrifices paved the road for those that would follow.

In my opinion that's the way to make your point.  Risk it all to prove it to the world.  Don't hide behind masks letting others fight the fight for you.

In my opinion it's tantamount to terrorism.  Same anonymity, same tactics ...

I can't apologize for my "strong headed" opinions on this matter.

I don't respect it.

I won't get behind it.

No matter my feelings towards Scientology.

[tube]

Just a quick hit-and-run:

In my opinion it's tantamount to terrorism.  Same anonymity, same tactics ...

Terrorism is rarely either anonymous or non-violent. Where exactly do you see the same tactics being utilized? I really can't see how these legal (even if a bit juvenile) protests could be likened to acts of terrorism.

To me it seems CoS is a cult that apparently has no redeeming qualities whatsoever. Besides, why should anyone respect an organization that has no respect for them.

[Shane 'ProgZmax' Stevens]

Well tube, if CoS didn't have any redeeming qualities (we won't argue the definition here) no one would flock to it.  There's a lot of money and status to be made in the Scientology Party, but I would argue that it is more a political party with political aims than a religious group with 'religious' concerns.  The bottom line really is that if you want to know more about them then read some independent studies and leaked copies of their doctrine.  If you don't then no one will convince you they are anything but another group of nuts, anyway!

[tube]

Well tube, if CoS didn't have any redeeming qualities (we won't argue the definition here) no one would flock to it.

Nazism doesn't have any redeeming qualities (yes, I could have chosen my words better here but let's stick to these for now) but Hitler gathered and still gathers quite a following.

There's a lot of money and status to be made in the Scientology Party, but I would argue that it is more a political party with political aims than a religious group with 'religious' concerns.

It's a cult with political goals. The religion aspect might or might not play a part in the grand scheme of things, but their goals are pretty clear.

I still maintain that there's no reason for any of us to respect an organization that does not respect us.

[Shane 'ProgZmax' Stevens]

I don't disagree!

[AntmanJB]

Meh, I don't like participating in religious discussions.

Everyone is too stubborn.

I'll just say that I'm Catholic and normal.