Beslan, North Ossetia...

[Cyberion]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3624024.stm


So any thought about this disaster?


Personaly i would liek to give my best regard to those, whos relatives/children have died.

[Haddas]

I would also like to pay tribute to the parents and children who died during the event.

It's things like these that make me ashamed of being a human being. Do these people have no moral? Why children? CHILDREN? Why can't we all just get along? Maybe someday, we will. But I doubt that. :'(

[Nacho]

World sucks.

[Shane 'ProgZmax' Stevens]

It's sad that it takes events such as these to wake people up about the nature of terrorism, and the fact that it will not remain centered on one country.  Hopefully the world governments will really start working together to crack down on terrorism so that the US and England don't continue looking like the bad guys in the fight against terrorism, and hopefully tragedies like this one will be averted in the future.

[Nacho]

It's sad that it takes events such as these to wake people up about the nature of terrorism, and the fact that it will not remain centered on one country.Ã,  Hopefully the world governments will really start working together to crack down on terrorism so that the US and England don't continue looking like the bad guys in the fight against terrorism, and hopefully tragedies like this one will be averted in the future.

I was going to reply something like that, but in a more sarcastic way... Anyway, I declined because I am tired... We complain to hell because 15 or 20 guys have been humilliated in  Abu Ghraib is "cool", but when the same people kills 150 kids we shut up. I am vey sad and tired.

[Czar]

It's sad that it takes events such as these to wake people up about the nature of terrorism, and the fact that it will not remain centered on one country.Ã,  Hopefully the world governments will really start working together to crack down on terrorism so that the US and England don't continue looking like the bad guys in the fight against terrorism, and hopefully tragedies like this one will be averted in the future.

That is a very naive way of looking at things.
Nothing evil is made by itself, like the Newton's law, every action has it's reaction.
The terrorist are NOT the only one to blame for the situation.
In a way i can understand them, tho I don't support the slaughter of children.

What would you do if your country was in a pressure by a bigger country, and they are not giving you any rights, all your familiy and friends' familiy hasn't eaten solid food in a week, and it goes on and on and on with no hope of getting better.

The only way is to do "kick the Goliat in the balls".

And I think it's a well known fact that USA uses the terrorism thing as a cover for personal power, and NOBODY can deny it.

..more typos from me later...

[modgeulator]

It's sad that it takes events such as these to wake people up about the nature of terrorism, and the fact that it will not remain centered on one country.Ã,  Hopefully the world governments will really start working together to crack down on terrorism so that the US and England don't continue looking like the bad guys in the fight against terrorism, and hopefully tragedies like this one will be averted in the future.

It's sad that some people are going to use this tragedy as an excuse to push more doublespeak "war on terror" dogma down everyone's throat. Newsflash: Terrorism isn't new. It existed before September 9/11. While there are groups of people pushed to the point of insanity, insane acts will continue. I'm sure we'll all be hearing of links, whether real or fictional, between these events and Al Qaeda soon enough. This kind of manipulation makes me sick.

[DGMacphee]

We complain to hell because 15 or 20 guys have been humilliated in  Abu Ghraib is "cool", but when the same people kills 150 kids we shut up.

I wouldn't exctly say they're the "same people", but I do kind of understand what you're trying to say.

Tis indeed sad.

But I think terrorists toutured in a prison or children being killed are both quite sad.  That's the problem with wars -- they create chaos like this.

And I don't think people are shutting up about the kids being killed.

It's sad that some people are going to use this tragedy as an excuse to push more doublespeak "war on terror" dogma down everyone's throat. Newsflash: Terrorism isn't new. It existed before September 9/11. While there are groups of people pushed to the point of insanity, insane acts will continue. I'm sure we'll all be hearing of links, whether real or fictional, between these events and Al Qaeda soon enough. This kind of manipulation makes me sick.

Aye, if countries in the coalition of the willing are going to politicise this, what are they going to do to rectify this? Oh wait, Russia wasn't in the Coalition of the Willing. Too bad.

It's kind of a double standard, really, as in "Yes, we'll eliminate terror, but only the terrorists we choose. Sorry, Russia!" That's why I'm not happy about Bush or our Howard exploiting these deaths for their own political purposes (Hey, both have elections on, so you have to score points where you can).

[Babar]

It is truely sad that people will resort to things like this. I agree with Czar that this is not something that happens by itself, and is the result of a huge chain reaction, but that still does not excuse what these people did. Like Haddas said, Why children? No "mission" or any such objective justifies the killing of these children. My prayers are with the dead and mourning.

BTW, Farlander, I do not understand your point. How is anything that happened in Abu Ghraib related to this? What happened in Abu Ghraib is not excused by what these type of people did, nor is what happened in Russia excused in anyway by what happened in Abu Ghraib. I doubt they are even connected in anyway. You seem to want to push this point, (you also posted some odd comic awhile back about it), when it bears no relation.

[Goldmund]

Tragedy aside, it is indeed a very comfortable event for people who declare "war on terror".
I advise you to get to know what is the nature of the conflict in Chechnya - this should make your view much less monochrome.
It's interesting that Poland was in great favour of Chechnya, people wrote songs and wrote articles in which they demanded freedom for this small country - and now, puff, chechens are just Bin Ladens in different hats.
Inventing any connections to Al Queda make me sick.

The stupid and carefree action of Russian anti-terrorist squads is not surprising at all, considering that the country (although I love it very much) doesn't exactly have a tradition of valuing the human material very much.
There's reason why they have the first man in space, no?

[DGMacphee]

Inventing any connections to Al Queda make me sick.

How I second that!

[Haddas]

Just wait. It's gonna happen soon enough.

[Andail]

I had to change the channel after the third time I watched the news covering this tragedy, I literally couldn't hold my tears back.

And what's the recipe to cure this? More military actions, more soldiers pouring into Chechnya, more opression. Because that's how we are tought to fight terrorism. Weapon factories will flourish. The military have - after all- proven to be such a faboulous way of solving these conflicts around the world.
I'm getting bloody tired of it all

[Nacho]

Chechnya was independent after reaching peace with Yeltsin's Russia, but they attacked Daguestán. That's why nobody should ask himself if the terrorists are right or not before leaving the armed fight, because any success encourages them more. Maybe they had the right to be independent, but they as they reached them with blood, they thoght that they had founf the philosophal stone.

Example. I am pro-basque, but I just don't wonder me about their situation while a terrorist organization is deffending their right to be free. Many times we tend to belief that terrotists are people opressed to their limit by a huge and powerfull nation, but in many of cases I can think about, they're just criminals who need an excuse to act. ETA is close to become a non- terrorist organization, and I will start to deffend their rights as hell in that very moment.

It is like Ben Laden. Somebody thinks he was a multimillionary arab who left their palaces to start a romantic fight in Afganistan. He was actually a non-very rich son of the many sons that a sheik had with many spouses. He left Arabia to start a host business for fighters in Afghanistan (the host house was called Al-Quaeda, the base). The press created a romantic fighter, but what we really have is a inkeeper who had luck with their opium dealing business. What a change, isn't it?

Who is the naive now? The belicists, who know they're evil and they will go on, no matter what we do? Or the peacifists, who think that giving them some things they will happily leave their weapons? Al-Quaeda claims the dissapering of any Occidental item from the holy lands. Spain was "Al-Andalus". So, should I accept the fact that I must leave my country to that mob because you want to remain safe?

Petter! Make a gap for me in your room! I gotta move becuase a crazy Wahaby wants to live in my home!  (Take it as a joke, matey)

Of course, any action by countries "apparently" creates reactions. I think that this savage acts would happen anyway because they're criminals, so, we must try to strike back,playing an infinite Ping-Pong match. I know we can't win, but they neither.

My hope is that someday people will open its eyes and see how lovely and rich is Islam... But the dangers of Wahabism, the most aggressive and radical group in Islam. The problem is that Wahaby is the majot religion in Saudi Arabia, and they use the petrodollars to spread it out, their messages of hate. Do you imagine that Texas was the most rich state in the USA, and the religion there was the KKKlanish? (Insert joke here "That's what actually is happening!" Daniel  )

That's what I call a problem. You see that trying to link Al-Quaeda with Chechnya makes you sick... They're not linked, they're in the same height, but the ideal they pursuit is the same.

The only good thing I can think I can see in all the School stuff is that some of the peacifists see that some countries are threatened, and using the Ostrich tactic won't work forever. We are claiming help... You can decline to help us, but sooner or later the problem will reach you (I hope not, but it's happening). I wonder if you will start blaming the countires who started the oppossition, or you'll finally decide to face it with us.

I have finally expressed that I think that this will end with a final struggle between many nations after the terrorists have done something really great (Who knows, putting a nuke in Rome, or something).

Which is the opinion of the peacifists, your recipe? Compression and more compression? I WOULD like to believe in such a sollution... Do you really think we wouldn't like to put the TV news and sewing just weather profiles and economy stuff? Do you really think we are belicists because we like it, cos we like to see blowing bodies in busses, slaughtered palestinian bodies? Please thell me your sollution and I'll change my side.

[DGMacphee]

Do you imagine that Texas was the most rich state in the USA, and the religion there was the KKKlanish? (Insert joke here "That's what actually is happening!" Daniel  )

Bah! How can I make jokes when you keep preempting them!

[Nacho]

I won't spoil more jokes!Ã, 

Anyway... I think that my previous post was too long... During this night I've thought in a synopsis.

Russeau said that the human race is good by nature and it is just the enviroment which makes the human beings be evil. The peacifists use this theory to look for the motivations of the terrorists, and they think that if this motivations dissapear, they will stop acting. Wanna know something? Russeau was wrong. The human being is evil in many occasions, without need of explanation. Hitler was not opressed or had a worst childhood than many of the kids in the final of the XIXth century, Bin Laden was not opressed (Do you want to include Bush in the Axis of the evil)ok... Bush hasn't been opressed or specially unhappy, nor Stalin, or what we can guess about Jack the Ripper... The human being has a great percentage of evilness in their behaviour, with no reason at all. The human children crush ants... We're the only animal which is cruel with no learning purposes.

And the great leaders of terrorist movements are evil people, which use the naive and opressed people to have an army. They're criminals using the desesperation of entire communities.

So... If we give something they demmand... they will think in another thing, because the leaders of that organisations just use that reivindications as an excuse. The contraband of weapons is the most lucrative ilegal business in the world, kicking the ass of drugs.

That's why I think we must fight against a religion, Wahabism, which supresses the will of millions of people. It is sick, but all this clergyman and Ulemas may be the less believers in the world, but they just preted for having an army of zombies with no brain.

I want you to see the problems of a religion without a central authority. Islam has no "Rome"... Anybody can put a notice in a building "Mosque", and start proclaiming, no matter how many hate their speech contain.

[Barcik]

I had to change the channel after the third time I watched the news covering this tragedy, I literally couldn't hold my tears back.

And what's the recipe to cure this? More military actions, more soldiers pouring into Chechnya, more opression. Because that's how we are tought to fight terrorism. Weapon factories will flourish. The military have - after all- proven to be such a faboulous way of solving these conflicts around the world.
I'm getting bloody tired of it all

I very much agree with Nacho. Petter, violence is in the human nature. One can complain about it, one can criticize it, but one mustn't deny it. I would love it to be so that if I refused to join the IDF, a terrorist from the Hammas wouldn't attack me if he had the chance. But it wouldn't.
Nor is being ultra-violent right. One mustn't also deny the power of diplomacy, negotiations and speech. The answer lies somewhere betweent those two ends. If only someone knew where.

The stupid and carefree action of Russian anti-terrorist squads is not surprising at all, considering that the country (although I love it very much) doesn't exactly have a tradition of valuing the human material very much.
There's reason why they have the first man in space, no?

This is something that is sadly dismissed. The Russian special forces are very un-proffesional. I think that many, many of the casualties were directly hit by Russian forces. No planning, no caution. Shoot whatever piece of meat you see. That's their approach.
Although, knowing the Ruskies, I think the Chechenyans are one of the more 'oppressed' people. The Russian army is a collection of thugs and pigs. Their behaviour, especially in drunk mode, often goes beyond brutal.

So... If we give something they demmand... they will think in another thing, because the leaders of that organisations just use that reivindications as an excuse. The contraband of weapons is the most lucrative ilegal business in the world, kicking the ass of drugs.

That's why I think we must fight against a religion, Wahabism, which supresses the will of millions of people. It is sick, but all this clergyman and Ulemas may be the less believers in the world, but they just preted for having an army of zombies with no brain.

I want you to see the problems of a religion without a central authority. Islam has no "Rome"... Anybody can put a notice in a building "Mosque", and start proclaiming, no matter how many hate their speech contain

The problem with the Islam, is that it allows a bunch of Mesiah-disguised politicians brainwash millions of followers. Iranians, for example, are not Americans - they are poorer, and their lives are harder. Therefore, they are more easily influenced by leaders who use loopholes in their Holy Book to progress their goals. The problem, is not really with the religion, but with its followers. One way or another, the West needs to give them a progressional kick in the arse.

[Andail]

What do you mean by "deny", Barcik?
Do you think I don't believe violence exists?

I'm saying that it pisses me off that every time something awful happens, the first thing that comes to people's minds is to use military force to solve it. I'm just saying it's pretty strange that after all this time, we haven't come any longer.

Every conflict there is today, is there because people tried to solve it by using violence. It's a vicious spiral.

The Bloody Sunday incident rather trigged than soothed the conflict in Northern Ireland - the military intervention was intended to take the wind out of the IRA, but it just inflamed it.

Your own little skirmish? Will the conflict between Israel and Palestine cease until you solve it by diplomacy? Please don't give me a million excuses to why the Palestines are so incapable of reasoning, I'm not taking sides or anything.
Just ask yourself if it will end before at least one man puts down his gun, takes some beating without retaliating, and says "it was worth it for the sake of getting closer to peace."

It's easy to say that a pacifist is naive, and that has always been your main argument, Barcik. Don't take it for granted. I haven't spent all the years I'm ahead of you sitting idly in my appartment, lulled by hippies and ideologists.

[SSH]

I've just finished reading Mila 18 by Leon Uris. There, despite the worse oppression imaginable in the Warsaw ghetto, the Jews did not fight until the very last moment. Even then, they only attacked the forces sent into the ghetto, they didn't go looking for a fight. That is true courage.

Violence leads to violence and it is the stronger and better person who is the first one to lay down arms.

In some ways, terrorists are like childish. They believe that the world revolves around them and their concerns and they will hit anyone who gets in their way if they want something, and if they can't achieve that they can get very frustrated, upset and self-destructive. Obviously if a child is doing something seriously destructive, you have to stop the immediate threat, but being cruel to them as a punishemnt only leads to them learning that cruelty is the way to deal with things that you don't like.

[Nacho]

Exactly Andrew... Believing nowadays that terrorism will work for impose ideas is so childish that thinking that the heads of terrorism are doing it just for accomplishing their reivindications is ridiculous. Who can think that terrorism works? The conflict in Ireland hasn't been solved in a hundred years. Three of the main social archievements in the last century, the indian independence and the recognisement of the rights of black people in the US and South Africa were archieved by peaceful movements.

So, my point is clear... Terrorists are professionals suckers! 

How can we finish with that? The military solution seems so bad as doing nothing. But the problem is that terrorism is a resource used by evil people to convince the naives and weak, opressed in many times, masses of people to fight for them and have an army.

We must cut that heads.

When I was thinking in this very subject, yesterday, I took a look to the notebooks I have refering to the very topic SSH talked about before, the resistence in Warsaw. I asked to myself, is ALL terrorism bad? I reached to the conclussion that, yes. If there was a truly evil nation doing really bad things to another (I.E. Nazi Germany in Poland) actions of resistance could be easy to understand. I remember that a head of the SS (Heydrich?) was killed in (Checoslovaquia?). I can remember the resistance movements in the Ghetto of Warsaw, in France... But that are resistance movements. We can't assume a polish guy putting a bomb in a tram in Berlin, killing civilian women and children.

I hope that with this Ossetia affaire, people will realise that terrorism is not a romantic fight against the opression. Talking of the opression that the palestinians are suffering is, excuse me, ridiculous if compared with the suffering that the jewish suffered in Warsaw. Any kind of opression is dispicable, yes, but they were 500,000 in the Ghetto at 1941 and in 1943 they were just 30,000. Remember this cyfers before saying that the reasons for bombing buses in Tel-Aviv have some substract of right.

That situation 1943 was indeed desesperate, and not having to walk half an hour more to reach your place of work because the Jews have put a stupid wall in the middle...   [/black humor]

This bad people exist. This evil heads controlling the masses exist. We can't finish with them with peacifists sollutions, now it's time to see how is it going with bullets.

Because, remember this... the situation was dealt with peacifism and compression before some supid psycho decided that the americans should abandon their bases in Arabia, and preppaired 4 planes to crash against the WTC, the Pentagon and the (White house?).

Things were dealt with peacifism and compression while a psycho with riduculous moustache and his allies occupied Sudetes, Austria, the Ruhr, Abisinia, China... before one guy decided to invade Poland.

That are two examples of spirals of violence which started "spontaniously" in some way...

The world is complicate. So complicate that we can't know if belicists or peacifists are right. Fortunately, this thread has been a pleasure to read. I've finally felt free to express how I would attempt to sollute the problems. I hope that with this we've seen that some of the belicists are not "stupid fascists thist of blood". We all want the things back to normal, but the ways to reach it are not the same.

Some poeple likes to paint Bush as a stupid and ignorant (------Space reserved for DG's joke------). But Mr. Henry Kissinger, who I presuppose is a wise and human being replied to a person who was attacking the Govenrment "They're a group of normal people, with good intentions, who is facing a great problem, and they do what they believe is the best, without knowing for sure if it is"