Bet you didn't see THIS coming....

[Nacho]

Leonardo DaVinci was a homo but also celibate.

Oh... What a strange choice... 

[Matchew]

Homosexuality is your decision, (i.e. he/she who feels that way) not a bunch of homophobes, nor the clergy, nor the guy sitting next to you on the bus. If you decide to be homosexual, that's your buisiness. If you decide to hate homosexuals, that's your (admittedly childish (no wait, kids are better at understanding this than adults)) business. but you can't change the facts, and these are 1: homosexuals and lesbians are the way they are, they aint gonna change brother, 2: they obviously like their chosen lifestyle, so leave em to enjoy it, and 3: who gives a damn what somebody's sexual preferances are, I mean basic manners tells us that sex is one of the most private things there are (and no, I don't care what some tribes in south america deem manners) sex is none of your business if it isn't with you. mind your own business about gay sex, it's between two people as an expression of love and it's not to be discussed lightly. So have some manners and respect each other, because it's none of your business whether someone likes guys instead of Girls.



Geez, I need a drink!

[Blackthorne]

Leonardo DaVinci was a homo but also celibate.

Damn, that celibate homo sure could paint.

Bt

[wyr3x]

(sorry about MY last and the comming errors .... i type fast    )
homosexuality is a SOCIAL problem, and also a PERSONAL decition. why don't they marry ?: because they don`t let them. why they don`t let them ?: ... it is suppoused that is a loose of time, that love means to have children, and homosexuals are no going to have "their own" children. if they have "their own", it will not be from "woman-woman"/"man-man" ... and once it can be like that .... it will not be accepted because of an universal reason: fear ... as everything new and not so "orthodoxycal" .... i'm right ...  ? ? ?

[Blackthorne]

(sorry about MY last and the comming errors .... i type fastÃ,  Ã,  )
homosexuality is a SOCIAL problem, and also a PERSONAL decition. why don't they marry ?: because they don`t let them. why they don`t let them ?: ... it is suppoused that is a loose of time, that love means to have children, and homosexuals are no going to have "their own" children. if they have "their own", it will not be from "woman-woman"/"man-man" ... and once it can be like that .... it will not be accepted because of an universal reason: fear ... as everything new and not so "orthodoxycal" .... i'm right ...Ã,  ? ? ?

Your complete lack of rules regarding grammar and punctuation make me think you are no authority on the rules of life.  It's okay; I type fast too.

Bt

[Peter Thomas]

Peter, just some questions, don't take this the wrong way though, I am just wondering:
Do you still believe in a God that gives you these urges, and then tells you they are a sin?
Do you believe you are "sinning"?
Or have you found some "loophole" in your religious teachings that say that it is not wrong?

This is an incredibly hard thing to answer. As I've said a million times, I haven't abandoned my christian faith altogether. That is to say I still believe in the same God (though sometimes maybe not...) and whenever I read stupid bible-bashing posts, I'm still at the ready to totally defend scripture, and I do NOT believe that homosexuality is compatible with being christian. How can I feel this way? I'm not too sure, and I think that's a major part of my stress. I really don't understand how I can be gay and still be at the ready to defend scripture which says I'm destined for hell. Maybe it's just my social upbringing in the church. Maybe it's something deeper.

Homosexuality is your decision, (i.e. he/she who feels that way). If you decide to be homosexual, that's your buisiness, but you can't change the facts, and these are 1: homosexuals and lesbians are the way they are, they aint gonna change brother, 2: they obviously like their chosen lifestyle, so leave em to enjoy it

I respect the fact that you're not being ANTI gay, however the manner in which you're being PRO gay is a little puzzling. Believe me, if I had my say in the matter, I would be heterosexual in the blink of an eye. I didn't wake up and think gee, I WANT to be gay. I prayed religiously every day for FOUR YEARS specifically that God would take away this temptation and I'd be free to get on with a heterosexual lifestyle. But after four years and absolutely NO change (if anything, the 'temptation' had become 10 times stronger) you feel like there's little or no point to resisting what apparently is going to stay with you forever. And whilst I don't DISLIKE my lifestyle, I think I would be MUCH happier as a heterosexual, so you can't say I'm gay because I like it.

And you'd be surprised the number of gay people who SHIFT from being gay to straight and back again and then doubling back and doing loop the loops with their sexuality. It's a funny business.

[Meowster]

Aye, aye, a funny business...

[Harvester]

OK, I feel I have to clarify my opinion here, before someone else calls me an idiot. Not that I'm offended or anything, heck, you should hear the words my friends and I use to call each other 

1. I believe homosexuality is wrong. It's that simple. It's my opinion. It's not gonna change if I come here and pretend I'm "politically correct" and say "Hey, it's OK to be gay, let's all be one happy little community!". So, I'm only stating my opinion.

2. I did NOT compare homosexuality to murder. I merely used murder as a weird example. Probably could have found a better one, though.

3. By condemning HOMOSEXUALITY I by no means condemn HOMOSEXUALS (notice the difference?). I know Graham Chapman was a gay and I still enjoy Monty Python. I know Clive Barker is gay, yet I just LOVE some of his stories / books (Weaveworld ROCKED!). They say Caravaggio was a gay, and I still love almost all of his paintings. They say the same for Marcel Proust, and Swannsway is still one of my favorite books. And so on, and so on...

4. I didn't mention this before - my opinion on anal sex is that it is wrong in all possible incarnations, including the man-woman thing.

5. One more thing (I probably forgot to answer to many people, I'll try tomorrow, I'm kinda tired today because I spent hours and hours playing Blair Witch: Elly Kedward Tale. And I finished it!  ) :
If you think that when two men decide to have a homosexual relationship, it is no wrong because they don't harm anyone and it's their own business what they do with their bodies, answer me this: Can we call incestuos (sp?) relationship between brother and sister wrong if they both agree to do it? One answer I DON'T want to hear is "Are you nuts, you damn four-eyed freak? Are you really comparing incest with homosexuality???".

[Kinoko]

Just to clarify something... Peter, I'm so sorry for being one of the people turning your happy thread into an argument, I honestly mean no offense and I'm sorry.

Secondly, I'm sorry if me calling someone an idiot has offended, but I do believe that freedom of speech doesn't simply mean people stating their case, but also others being able to give their opinion on that opinion. More than that, it's just hard for me to let people go on stating views I believe to be outright wrong without meeting at least some kind of opposition. I -do- think Harvester's post was idiotic. To me, these are all the sorts of beliefs that lead to the lingering homophobia and hatred in this world.

Also, Farlander, I adore your KITT lights.

[Peter Thomas]

Kinoko; Harvester; whoever else - absolutely no offence taken.

Mostly because I've shared your christian beliefs for the last 18 years or so, and would probably be saying EXACTLY what you're saying were this happening to someone else and NOT me.

I completely respect that you see homosexuality as a sin; and as far as the bible goes, I'd have to agree with you 100%. I think everyone know's everyone else's viewpoints, so there's little point to saying "you're wrong: here's why!". You just can't change what someone else emphatically believes in a 100 word post!

I honestly don't mind the open, argumentative disucssion, though. I'm genuinely interested to see what other people think of this whole thing.

[TheYak]

Many interesting replies, and I've definitely gotten a few surprises from members I thought were a bit more liberal than they turned out to be.  In any case, I don't have any problem with someone being racist/sexist/homophobic - what have you, as long as they keep it to themselves.  This thread is, of course, an exception since opinions were encouraged. 

There have been questions about condoning murder, incest, animal acts; and they've all been poor analogies and way off base.  The prerequisite for the two consenting adults doing whatever they want behind closed doors is that word - adults.  The law protects their rights by making sure they've reached adulthood so they're not being taken advantage of, so if they're both fine with whatever activity they choose to pursue, I really don't see what business it is of ours. 

The hypocrisy of some of the religious types (nobody in particular here, and more picking on the people than the religion) is amazing.  The bible says God killed a man for masturbation (spilling his seed on the ground), the ten commandments are violated constantly, and casual sexual relations abound in nearly every sect.  Homosexuals were executed (in accordance with God's law) in the old testament but Jesus changed the rules a bit: Hate the sin, not the sinner/ I say to you no longer an eye for an eye /love thy neighbor as thyself / do unto others as you would have them do unto you.  Strangely, I couldn't find a single verse wherein Jesus condemns homosexuality.  Sure, there are some by Paul (aka Saul "Paul" of Tarsus), and I believe one or two in letters from apostles (non JC quotes though).   The majority of Christians today (or at least those I've met from West to East coasts in the US) are so full of themselves and they're religion that they spit upon Jesus' teachings.  Caring about others, putting yourself second, hating sin itself and wanting better for the sinners - but not hating them, how often is this practiced?  I'm sure a homosexual hates it just as much when a Christian claims they need to be freed from their sin of homosexuality but at least it's coming from a better motivation than, "It just disgusts me."

Ooo.. I knew I shouldn't have joined in.  I know too many gay/bi people and I'm living around San Francisco so it's a bit more liberal here and this issue isn't one I take lightly.  It seems to me that the population in general just needs something to hate.  Blacks, Chinese, Communism, homosexuality have all made their rounds.  The hate just gets less superficial as time goes on and people have to actually invade people's private lives in order to find something worthy of odium.

[modgeulator]

And Modgeulator... I am not going to reply you... Thanks for calling me stupid without reason, that is a better reply than anything else I could say...

Freedom of speech includes not saying what you are allowed to say if you think that's going to hurt somebody...

That's a nice little trick "I am not going to reply to you" followed by a reply to the person. You get to have that whole Zen-master / Ghandi thing going on, tell someone they're below you AND say what you think all at the same time.

And no, that is not freedom of speech. You're confusing it with boring, old politeness. Don't forget, your initial post was quite aggressive. I think you even made comparisions with the Gestapo...   

[Blackthorne]

Eh, making blanket statements on things is a risky buisness.  You should reserve your opinions for people on a case-by-case basis.

Bt

[DGMacphee]

I don't follow Christianity or Catholicism or anything like that, but I'd like to believe that if there is a God, he wouldn't send someone to hell purely on the basis of who he or she has sex with. I'm pretty sure that if you're a good, kind, and honest person, God looks past your "sins".

And that's all I have to say in this thread.

[Peter Thomas]

Daniel? Are you feeling okay? No humourlessly offensive witticisms or ANYTHING?!

[DGMacphee]

And that's all I have to say in this thread.

[Peter Thomas]

Now THAT'S more like it!

[Nacho]

Thanks Kinoko, you've come back to the group of people "who I can discuss with"! (But the KITT lights have been made by Darth Mandarb, over an idea of Squinky, I think...) 

And modgeulator, I did not type the reply I thought for you, and I won't type it here... the second part of my reply was totally un-related to you, so, I think I was not using a Zen trick or something.

So, if you think that ASKING if this are Gestapo forums after a very harsh reply to a member to another deserves me to be called idiot, ok... yourself...

[BernieLaraemie]

Wonderlady and Harvester are showing us the opposite side of the coin, what's the problem? The gays members, who should be the most annoyed, are replying gently, because this is all of opinions... Peter and Bernie are understanding the act of DISCUSSION so muchbetter than you.

Personally, I don't think this is so much a fact of tolerance for us, but of fatigue. . .I too grew up in a Christian home and have heard the arguements against everything on all sides.

Hate to speak for Peter, just voicing my two cents.

Also,

I hate seeing what right people, not just gays, don't have, and it's the pessimist in me that just shuts down and doesn't reply. . . but I like seeing the attitudes from many of you, and the grace with which the opposition presented their cases.

~~Bernie

[Peter Thomas]

Bernie! How DARE you speak on my behalf! And for only two cents?! WTF?!

[/kill bernie]

Okay, maybe I've had a bit too much wine. Or not enough, depending how you look at it.

I think Bernie's got some of it right though. I've heard the arguments against homosexuality a thousand times, and when someone talks about it in terms of "normal" and "the others" then I know it's of little use to try to talk about it in practical and especially literal means. One learns to mellow out after a bit, as I think fellow AGS-ers are beginning to learn after their 20th unheeded/ignored/flamed post.

But yes, I'm still genuinely interested in what you think, so don't hesitate to say it!